wanttobehealthy

Surprise surprise...

AH showed up (he picked our girls up since I am supposed to be laying low and I agreed to have him do this) and lurked around til they went to bed. I didn't "kick him out" instantly since I figured it was harmless that he stay for a bit and I just didn't interact with him.

I put the girls to bed and sat down to read. He sat down next to me and said "is there anything you want to talk about?" I said no and asked him if he had anything he felt like talking to me about (knowing FULL well where this was headed- stupid me for engaging in it at all). He said no, not really and then rambled about how concerned he is for me (not) and wanted to know if there was anything I was worried about that I wanted to share with him (trap). He also managed to toss in how "glad" he's been to help with x, y, z and rattled off all the parenting responsibilities he's helped with while I was in the hospital and looked at me waiting for praise. I said no thanks to the "offer" to talk and went back to reading (smart).

A number of sighs and foot taps later he brings up where he's staying and pretends that last nights conversation didn't happen (a conversation about the fact that he is staying elsewhere and that's that).

I reminded him that when I'd left our house with the girls many many weeks ago he encouraged us to return and said he would leave and told me that he had many options and would NOT try to weasel his way back in to the house by having this very type of conversation. We have now had this conversation twice and twice I've reminded him that he CHOSE willingly to go elsewhere and needed to stick with it. I told him again that his staying here was not good for any of us bc it would make it hard for he and I both to focus solely on our recovery. I even went so far as to say that I felt I was the one who would make it hard for us both if we were here together bc when we are together I focus too much on him and expect too much and create a lot of the tension that exists between us. I told him I was not pushing him away and wanted to see this as a time for me to heal and hopefully he could see it that way too (maybe I should've left that part out?)

He then said "well I see this as more of a cooling off period for our marriage" and added "I am finding the more I focus on myself the less I care about our marriage". I told him I did not see this the same way but appreciated hearing his perspective. I said I saw it as a time to focus on me and my recovery and if he didn't intend to do the same then I did not see anything changing anytime soon between us; ie: him moving back in.

He is adamant about making this into a marriage issue and when I was nonchalant about the whole thing (bc in the past when he makes remarks about how it's a marriage issue I flip out and get upset) he changed his tune and started telling me how I have no idea about all the changes he's making (he's right bc there are none occurring) at step meetings, in therapy and in his outpatient rehab program. I reminded him he'd been to the outpatient program twice and said I was glad he felt he was making changes and repeated that I'd base my opinion on the actions I saw (walking the walk vs talking the talk). He did not like that and told me that the tone of the conversation was aggressive and I was too confrontational. I told him I was sorry he felt that way.

Then he told me he was eager to be elsewhere bc it was really peaceful to be away from me and told me the only reason he struggled to be reliable at home with me was bc I viewed him as a liability and made him feel awful about himself so it didn't "inspire" him to be the stand up guy he is everywhere else. I informed him that I was not responsible for his level of inspiration. Then he continued trying to spin the conversation to make it sound like he was the one who was gung ho about being separated all along.

My head was spinning at this point.

Cliff notes version as I interpreted this -- tell me what you think:
1. H wants to see if I'll agree to have him stay since he knows I am worried about my health and "vulnerable" and tries to take advantage of this
2. I don't give in
3. He tries to talk AT me telling me how changed he is and how the problems all stem from our marriage
4. I politely point out that I see it differently
5. He pulls away (fear of abandonment kicking in-- he has been diagnosed with BPD fyi-- so he pulls away and acts disinterested first bc he fears being rejected? sadly he doesn't see that the LAST thing i am doing is rejecting him--- being apart is the only hope i feel we have to be able to come back together-- he just doesn't get it or doesn't want to) and tries to make it seem as if being with me is torture and that he's been happy about the notion of being apart all along.

I am ready to change the locks just so I don't have to keep going around this circle with him. ENOUGH ALREADY.

And no, the house belongs to both of us so I can not actually change the locks.

He is gone and I know, I know, if this conversation seems to come up again I should just ignore it and not engage.

I did do well all things considered I think. I didn't get upset, emotional or take a lot of his baiting remarks that I normally would.

If he spent half the energy on his "recovery" that he spent trying to convince me and himself that the "real" problem is our marriage and that he is SOOOOOO engaged in recovery, he might actually accomplish something.

How does someone who thinks they are taking this seriously ever see that they aren't even on the same planet as step 1?!

My T tells me that people at AA don't call one another on their bs and accept folks where they are at. Sounds pretty enabling to me. My H is a GREAT bs artist so I am sure he's got lots of people (who don't actually know him) convinced that he's Mr. AA. Too bad he's lying to himself most of all.

I'm so fed up.

suki44883

The less interaction you have with him, the better. Him just coming over whenever he feels like it and hanging around as long as he wants is not good. It would be much better to have a regular visitation schedule. Specific dates and times for him to see the children, and no discussion about anything else. All this interaction is just keeping you upset. You have the power to put a stop to all this nonsense.

Seren

As hard as it was for you to have to go through that, I think you did a fantastic job!

You maintained your boundaries even as he tried to push. You kept your cool and did not insult him. Wow!!!!!

Hugs, HG

wanttobehealthy

Suki, I didn't have a choice today. I can't drive until I see the cardiologist tomorrow and get "clearance" and so he is picking up/dropping off the girls. My being hospitalized during the past week has really thrown a monkey wrench in my staying away from him physically in order to stay away emotionally plan.

I've had my mom be around when she's been able to so that I could limit the amt of time H is here but she isn't available all the time....

I totally agree that the time I spend with him ='s ticking time bomb for these kind of interactions.

I'm just venting and pissed that I even entertained the conversation at all. He is soooooo f'ing manipulative. Sits down, talks nicely, I get sucked in and then WHAM we're back in accusatory/lying mode and I'm wondering whether I'll wind up back in the ER after our "talk".

I am seriously considering taking the girls and going back to my moms. He has a lot less power to come over and get involved when I am there. I ought to have just stayed there in the first place and never returned to my house.

Hydrogirl- Thanks... I was told that I was insulting so I felt like I was but I relayed to you all what I really did say so it's reassuring to hear that I did not sound insulting to you....

laurie6781

BULL. There may be some, especially those in early recovery that won't call another on their BS, however, anyone working the program and starting to 'sponsor' having had a sponsor that called us on our BS, we do the same. Does your Therapist attend AA on a regular basis? That is not the way AA works, sorry, but you have been given some misinformation.

I have seen this happen over and over and over for almost the last 30 years now. I do not understand how your therapist could come out and blantantly say something that is a lie.

As to your encounter with your H, you did good!! You are slowly getting better and are starting to move the buttons that he used to push.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

LaTeeDa

No wonder you have stress-related health issues. Stop dancing with him. You're not going to get him to see the light. You're wasting your breath.

L

Buffalo66

WTBH,

I know we have been going back and forth with this, but..
I swear we are living parallel lives.

This conversation could be mine and his...
SO much so, that I am thinking about the possibility of my RAH having BPD as well.

Can you send me any links?

Just an example:

MY RAH came home, I allowed him to, after rehab. He had cheated, lied, decieved me...
Neglected his son financially and otherwise.

I said, "c'mon home. Lets try starting over..."

His ungrateful a** complained, and whined, and me me me.
I was there for him, and it was never enough.

He fought me on spending normal family time together, time with son, etc..

He fought to leave, would probably NEVER have done it, so he could just keep on whining until I FORCED HIS HAND.

In arguments, he insists that he left me.
He tells others he had to leave because of me treating him so badly!!!
I required the minimum of everything from him, thinking he was starting fresh, going slow...

HE left, after I forced his hand.

He sees the minmum to none of his child.
HE calls to check in, he gets what he needs then he just does whatever he wants.

Yesterday he had a bad day at work, his boss messing with him, he was cranky.

He called for some sympathy. Whine whine whine. But I still gave him a little pep talk.

I was paid back with this,

" You know, it just sucks. ...All I want is a mate, a partner. A man is supposed to have a home that he can go home to. All I want is a nice family to go home to. I wish I had that. "

It just doesnt even go anywhere to be flabbergasted.
All you can do is shut off the phone.
I still need to deal with him for some money/car stuff.
I still hope he can come around as a father, but something is just so broken in his mind.

Its so sad, because there is a lot of other stuff he seems to be making a lot of progress with.

what is not sad, is that I am not freaking out about any of it anymore.
I can almost just let my day or night go completely unrocked by these truly crazy swings, power games.

keepinon

As i understand my own program..people are there TO call me on my bs stinkin thinkin..kinda the whole point of a program..but he has an interesting interpretation

StarCat

When my XABF stopped by at work to try and "apologize"/trap me back into the relationship, the whole cycle went along the lines of:

"I'm doing all this work to get better, even though you're the real problem, and you keep hurting me but I'm still not drinking, and if you come back to me I'll give you one more chance because I'm such a great guy, even though you're an awful human being."

*blinks* Only an addict or a masochist would use logic like that.
And to think I used to fall for it! Because I wanted to believe I was the problem, because if I was the problem then maybe I could fix it.
But I wasn't the problem.


wanttobehealthy, you're doing great! Your space has allowed you to extract yourself from the insanity, and see the craziness behind his words.
You can stand up, and recognize that you're not the problem, and kindly but firmly hold your boundaries.

You are awesome!

Alone22

WTBH,

I can only hope that I could do as good as you in the same situation. I think you did great! A's are so good at sucking us in and you held your ground. I am usually about half way through a "conversation" before I realize I was baited, which is better than it used to be (baby steps are good). I used to get myself all worked up and would just be fuming before it was over. I am now seeing how illogical they can be and how nothing we say to do can change it. Why waste the effort.. I have better things to do!

wanttobehealthy

Laurie- Thanks for the feedback. I didn't think this sounded accurate but my T (didn't realize this when I found him-- he was recommended by a friend who was also married to an A) is a LADAC (is that the right acronym?) and works with A's and their families almost exclusively. So I assumed what he said was accurate. Maybe I misinterpreted what he said? What I took from it (and he's said it a few times) is that I can't expect people in AA to call AH on his bs. Just as it's not my job to show him he's ill, it's not theirs either and no one but HIM is going to "see" the need to take recovery seriously. He has definitely told me that "accepting" people wherever they're at is part of AA and that's what AH will find in meetings. I'd like to think this is wrong but I tend to think that my AH is aligning himself at meetings with people who support his lies, his rationalizations etc.... He doesn't do well with confrontation and the fact that he's going to the same meetings regularly tells me that he's probably getting reinforcement for whatever he spews there.

nodaybut2day

WTBH, I also think you handled the conversation beautifully and that there was no insult in your approach. However, if he's still deep in denial, he's going to see EVERYTHING you say that isn't "honey you're right let's get back together" as insulting.

Don't beat yourself over the head for engaging in the conversation. Remember: progress not perfection.

Next time, you can shut the conversation down politely and firmly: "I don't want to talk about this".

wanttobehealthy

Just sent you a message....

My guess is that with my H his fake niceties are never about really changing anything... it's sucking me back in and wanting status quo to remain, well, status quo. When I (or you with your H) suggest we start over (='s real change) that's NOT what they want. They want to be treated like a prince, left alone to do what they want, when they want and want us to react as we once did to justify their bad behavior. I get the SAME whining each time I try to suggest something normal and healthy and it's bc what the "R"A's want is the opposite of all things normal and healthy.

Yeah this sounds a lot like the push/pull fear of abandonment/fear of enmeshment crap that is so fun with BPD.

They seem to have limited ability to connect the dots. Okay, here's what you want... here's what is needed to GET that... are you willing to do what's necessary to have what you want? No? Oh but you still want it without the effort. Makes TONS of sense. NOT!


I'm beginning to the think that the best I can hope for is that maybe he will stay sober. Given how many people talk about dry drunk behavior I really wonder, separate from sobriety, how many A's actually "recover". Sobriety is the least of it to me-- it's the insane thinking and irresponsibility and entitlement and not seeing any of it that is the most dangerous of A behaviors (and maybe they are not A behaviors and this is where the BPD comes in)

Check out my email to you-- maybe the info I send will be helpful...

wanttobehealthy

The bolded part makes SO much sense. I will keep this in mind during the next interaction. I am sure there will be one. Thanks!

coffeedrinker

WTBH,

I think you did just fine. You stated your views, restated what you have said, and told him "...but thank you for telling me how you feel". and apparently without snideness or sarcasm. that's perfect.

I would only take issue with allowing the appearance that him hanging out is ok. He needs to drop the kids off, then leave, just like a non-custodial parent does. You can perhaps accomplish this by not being in the room when he does come in.

laurie6781

WTBH again you handled this very well.

As to:

It is obvious that your Therapist has no clue how AA works. It is One Alcoholic working with another. One who has been there, done that, is now getting healthy working with one that is still sick.

Now I have been to meetings all over the country, in Australia and the Cayman Islands also and that is not what I see. What your T told you is the exact opposite of what goes on. Who better to call an A on their bs than one who also was a bser? lol

Again, not all 'Addiction Therapists' even licensed as such, know their buttholes from a hole in the ground. I guess we are fortunate here where I live in that we have several (more than 10) who not only specialize in addiction counseling, are licensed as Addiction counselors, but they themselves have each been in recovery for many years. These are the ones that are on the list I give to my sponsees, both AA and AlAnon, that ask about counseling.

J M H O but there has been an influx over the last 10 to 12 years of said type of counselors because there is and has been a growing problems of alcoholism and addiction. Unfortunately, a lot of those that have gone this route, only see it as a way to make a decent living. I still feel the best ones are the ones who themselves have been in the fray. We have a 'hospital' here that is a mental hospital. Most of their 'patients/clients' are involved in some type of addiction and may also be dual diagnosed. They only 'hire' counselors that have been 'through the fire' so to speak, and the hospital has been in existence for over 30 years now and has an excellent reputation, not only in the community, but with it's 'peers' also.

Yeah I know I get wordy, and I must HUMBLY apologize for the tone of my other post, but it just hit a nerve with me. lol If those folks had not 'pulled my covers' and consistently 'called me on my bs' there is no way I would be here today, it is just that simple.

Many times I hear the excuse or read the 'excuse' from those posting in 'newcomers' or 'alcoholism' that they want no part of AA because it is 'religious.' I have come to believe that, that is a convenient 'excuse' when in reality, they do not want to be around folks that will see through their bs. They don't want to be around folks that know they are only kidding and lying to themselves. In other words FEAR.

Now I will also share, and then get off my 'soap box' this: Did I like what they kept telling me? He!! no. Made me mad a lot! But somewhere, deep down inside, I 'knew' these folks spoke the truth. These folks had done what I was doing. These folks were 'helping' me get 'honest' with me.

As you already know, we A's are great CON ARTISTS, great MANIPULATORS, and that is how we have gotten by for years. A's can sell Deep Freezers to Eskimos and make great Used Care Salemen/women. This is the 'premise of AA and NA. This is why it works for those that WANT recovery.

I do understand that your T was trying to get across to you that YOU cannot call him on his BS as it will just aggravate the situation. I understand what he was trying to get across to you, but just used the wrong premise to do it.

I did not mean to make this post so long but thought maybe a bit more incite for you and others to digest could not hurt.

As a 'side note' in AA I am called a BB NAZI, roflmao;

J M H O based on almost 30 years of my own experience.

Love and hugs,

wanttobehealthy

Laurie- I didn't take offense at all to your earlier post... I appreciated it as I do this second one. My T has been in practice for about 30 yrs and I thought I was learning a lot from him but maybe I need to re-asses. I do know that I've worried far too much about wanting to know whether people at AA are calling him on his BS (my H that is) and I'd thought my T was right in telling me what he did about AA but maybe not.

I do know this about my H. When he is told something he does not like he shuts people out of his life. He's been through a number of sponsors (always has a story about what is wrong with them) and I bet my life on the fact that it's bc they've told him things he doesn't want to hear. He also says he prefers to "listen" at meetings (which over time has become code to me for "I don't want anyone to offer advice/opinion etc... or tell me what I am doing isn't okay")...

I guess some of what I've vented about to my T is this: Why is it that no one seems to be calling out those "R"A's like my H who want to play games with AA and not take it seriously (aka how I would have him doing it- LOL!). That's what started the conversation about how other members aren't going to go up to someone out of the blue and start telling them what to do... If my T is giving me bad info that's great! But if not, I do have to say that I kind of "get" this now-- An alcoholic who doesn't want to look at himself isn't going to be receptive to anyone telling him to do so (or maybe they will if it's another A?)

I guess I am just confused and ultimately need to stop caring what AA is doing or isn't doing for my H and just worry about me and "judge" my H's recovery on his actions that I see....

returntonormal

Good job on your conversation with your H. You've given me alot of ideas I plan to implement on the next go-around about our marriage.

stella27

I had to tell mine that he couldn't come inside the house anymore. He didn't like it one bit, but he has continued to abide by it.

LaTeeDa

You got it. AA cannot do anything for him if he doesn't want it to. Ultimately, AA is nothing more than a tool to help alcoholics who want to get sober. If it's not working for him, it's not because of AA calling him or not calling him on his BS. It's because he's not working the program.

Using a word processor does not make one a writer.

L