So much more to this than drinking...
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Baghdad
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Originally Posted by Sylvie66 
and he thinks that ultimatums are! So, nuts.
Boundaries are a much healthier and more effective way to protect ourselves
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ashland Oregon
Posts: 256
Right, and when I said I won't live with him as an active alcoholic, and he continued past that boundary, I plan to leave. That particular boundary IS an ultimatum. Dang, now I have to look them up:
Boundary: "Personal boundaries are guidelines, rules or limits that a person creates to identify for him- or herself what are reasonable, safe and permissible ways for other people to behave around him or her and how he or she will respond when someone steps outside those limits."
Ultimatum: "An ultimatum (Latin: the last one) is a demand whose fulfillment is requested in a specified period of time and which is backed up by a threat to be followed through in case of noncompliance. An ultimatum is generally the final demand in a series of requests. As such, the time allotted is usually short, and the request is understood not to be open to further negotiation."
That helps. I can see that clarifying the boundary for myself led to an ultimatum.
- Sylvie
Boundary: "Personal boundaries are guidelines, rules or limits that a person creates to identify for him- or herself what are reasonable, safe and permissible ways for other people to behave around him or her and how he or she will respond when someone steps outside those limits."
Ultimatum: "An ultimatum (Latin: the last one) is a demand whose fulfillment is requested in a specified period of time and which is backed up by a threat to be followed through in case of noncompliance. An ultimatum is generally the final demand in a series of requests. As such, the time allotted is usually short, and the request is understood not to be open to further negotiation."
That helps. I can see that clarifying the boundary for myself led to an ultimatum.
- Sylvie
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Baghdad
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Originally Posted by Sylvie66
Boundary: "Personal boundaries are guidelines, rules or limits that a person creates to identify for him- or herself what are reasonable, safe and permissible ways for other people to behave around him or her and how he or she will respond when someone steps outside those limits."
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Here's the thing. When you issue an ultimatum, sometimes the other person complies. But, it is not because they see the error of their ways and decide to do the right thing. It is because you have threatened them. So, they comply under duress. Then, they resent you for it. Because you have forced them into doing something they don't want to do.
I did this many times during my marriage. He would quit drinking because I threatened to leave. Then, he would resent me for taking away his "fun." Those times were worse than the drinking times in many ways.
At the end, I told him I don't care whether you drink or not. Do whatever you like, I can't live with you anymore. That was me protecting myself and that is a boundary.
Ultimatum=trying to coerce someone to change their behavior through threats
Boundary=doing what I need to protect myself from someone's behavior
L
I did this many times during my marriage. He would quit drinking because I threatened to leave. Then, he would resent me for taking away his "fun." Those times were worse than the drinking times in many ways.
At the end, I told him I don't care whether you drink or not. Do whatever you like, I can't live with you anymore. That was me protecting myself and that is a boundary.
Ultimatum=trying to coerce someone to change their behavior through threats
Boundary=doing what I need to protect myself from someone's behavior
L
Today is a New Day
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,766
Originally Posted by GettingBy
"I don't want anything more from him. I don't want him to change. He can go on being who he is - but who he is isn't what I want for me. So now, all I want is him out of my life."
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
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Silly Squirrel- Everything you wrote sounds so familiar. Your H being seen as a saint, you are seen as controlling, all the things he tells you you are, wanting to divorce him but not wanting to bc you do love the non A him that you fell in love with...
Like you I thought when he stopped drinking that the behaviors/thinking etc. that went with the drinking would also stop. Not at all. The past 6 months have been a rude awakening for me, realizing that with or without alcohol he will be a nasty alcoholic until he decides to wants to live life differently. And accepting that losing me and his kids aren't enough to make him want to change is something I am struggling with.
I don't have advice, just empathy. I know so well how you are feeling. I too am in the I want to be done/divorce him but I want to make it work boat and it's a hard place to be.
Like you I thought when he stopped drinking that the behaviors/thinking etc. that went with the drinking would also stop. Not at all. The past 6 months have been a rude awakening for me, realizing that with or without alcohol he will be a nasty alcoholic until he decides to wants to live life differently. And accepting that losing me and his kids aren't enough to make him want to change is something I am struggling with.
I don't have advice, just empathy. I know so well how you are feeling. I too am in the I want to be done/divorce him but I want to make it work boat and it's a hard place to be.
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
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He is out of town for a few days, so it is just me and the kids. They have been so well-behaved and fun to be around now that he is gone. In fact, my 11 yo daughter said last night, "Mom, you are in such a crazy good mood". It is just so tense....for all of us....when he is here. And now I am seeing how relaxed and happy it is when he is gone. Wow, it really makes me wonder why I can't leave him. Why can't I end this marriage?
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,175
SS, (this will be long, sorry)
I may have posted thins link to you before, but, even if so, I think you could probably use to read it again:
Dry Drunk Syndrome
When a person is sober, but not recovering, it is still as if they are controlling the family mood and tone.
My RAH came home and was great for a month, then things got less and less fun for him, and he reverted back. I let him stay, our son was so thrilled that his daddy was even there, I thought it was the right thing to do...
here is where it gets a little complicated.
My son is a child. Of course he wants his dad around. You wrote that your kids dont want you to split, but they dont even like being around him ...
Who would? In that state they are self centered, terrible parents. Cranky, blameshifting adolescents.
My son wanted RAH to stay. I put him out. He can go complain somewhere else, blame someone else.
The tension in the house was outrageous, and I was so wrapped up in trying to anticipate what might come next, that my poor kid was losing his mom, while he gained a vacant dad.
In my attempt to let RAH be with his family, to let our son be with his father, I allowed my sons schedule to be disrupted, his trust of his mama to be dimished, simply because all my focus was diluted. He never knew what to expect, and Lord, it was so confusing to me, imagine what its like for kids, of any ageframe!
when you wrote that he left, and that your daughter said that you were so crazy fun, and you know that that will be tamped down as soon as he returns because KING BABY needs to control the mood of the house passive aggressively, yadda yadda...I really heard that.
I was trying so hard to pretend that we were happy family, that I was blinded by the fact that my son had become depressed, withdrawn, had developed a facial tic, and was getting behavior reports at school. NOt a big Deal? Well not day to day, but when you look at it over a 4 month span, this was certainly a reaction to the mood of the house being unpredictable, controlled, and my energy being all stressy, no fun was coming out of me!
But my son was unable to voice this, because he s a child. He is not supposed to voice this. All he can do is act out, withdraw. EVEN BLAME ME. Which I kept RAH in the house over. That guilt, that my boy wanted his daddy.
But...Guess what? I went ahead, finally, and pushed RAH to leave, and to get his life in order WITH, BY , and FOR himself. No more pressure, blame, games, noe more passive mood shifting madness.
My son is mad at me. he is a smart and mature 6 years old. I am shouldering guilt and feeling unloved by him in my own immaturity (secretly, or course).
But, guess what else?
He has not had ONE behavior report from school. He laughs, he doesnt withdraw when the phone rings, knowing things are about to get tense, maybe even erupt into an argument, of which he cannot hear the other side of...
HIs facial tics stopped, and his counselor says that he is able to express anger at me over his daddy being gone, because he trusts me. He doesnt trust his dad. He would never tell his daddy he thinks he is wrong. My son is completely unsure of whether his father is available to stay after being disagreed with, or challenged.
My point is this:
If youc an get him out, your kids might whine and meow for a minute, maybe even a year. But they will know in time, and they will be happier, freer with you being happier and freer.
I am just now starting to accept that, yeah, it didnt work here, as a family, and maybe he will get healthier out there, and learn to be there for his son, emotionally.
But I am not going to put my son through being in that hailstorm while it hashes out.
I was wise enough to protect him from his active alcoholic father MOST of his life, with some lapses in judgement here and there, and physical sobriety did certainly not change the CLIMATE that my child and I were subjected to everyday.
He did not deserve that.
His counselor said something to me. It was so insightful that I almost cried.
My son was playing in the session, couselor asking him questions...Son said,
"I am angry at mama because she is the reason that daddy cant live with us. She gets too mad just because daddy just does whatever he wants. But thats not wrong. People should do whatever they want. "
The next session, after son had been having uncontrolled anger issues, RAH coming and going, still...counselor said why are you angry?
"Because I need to be able to do whatever I want, and mama wont let me. Its not wrong to do whatever you want."
Counselor said..."Is there anybody you can think of who does whatever they want to do? Anybody who doesnt have to follow rules, or gets to act in bad behavior?"
Son looked at me, looked at counselor. "Yes. My dad. he shouldnt do it, but he does. And I want to do whatever I want to do too."
I cried. When counselor and I spoke, he tried to explain to me how childrens minds work.
I said, "Oh, god, he is so angry at me I took his father away. "
counselor said, "
"Look, hes 6. Children of all ages process things differently. I know he is saying he is mad at you, not trusting you for taking his father away, but what is really affecting him badly is the fact that he now is having trouble trusting that you would make a decision to keep things calm and predictable for him. Of course he cant say that. HIs trust issue is really about you allowing things to get so confusing. Believe me, when RAH has been gone for a while, things get back on track, mood wise, predictability wise, he will be less angry at you. He will learn to trust you again. He is unable to voice all that, because he is a child. "
Sure enough, my son has really fallen back into a happier nook, since RAH has been gone, and I am really monitoring his contact with him. I will simply not stand for unpredictable erratic behavior when it comes to son.
AND, when RAH had to come by for a few days off and on this week, to deal with car stuff, my son said to me plainly,
"I feel nervous because I am not sure what is going to happen. "
He was talking about his dad and if his dad was going to be emotionally available that day, if he would have a mood swing, get really tired, shut down, snap at him, or lavish him with hugs and tickles.
I told RAH that he needs to make a schedule, for seeing son. If he cannot do it, it will wait til he can, and hopefully sons childhood will not pass him by. He agreed, sees the issue. He is coming around. He knows he is still pretty erratic for a child to deal with. I feel lucky that he does see this.
Its too darn much for us adults to live with, let alone kids or teenagers. I know it makes my head spin.
Just my story. Hope it speaks to you somehow.
I may have posted thins link to you before, but, even if so, I think you could probably use to read it again:
Dry Drunk Syndrome
When a person is sober, but not recovering, it is still as if they are controlling the family mood and tone.
My RAH came home and was great for a month, then things got less and less fun for him, and he reverted back. I let him stay, our son was so thrilled that his daddy was even there, I thought it was the right thing to do...
here is where it gets a little complicated.
My son is a child. Of course he wants his dad around. You wrote that your kids dont want you to split, but they dont even like being around him ...
Who would? In that state they are self centered, terrible parents. Cranky, blameshifting adolescents.
My son wanted RAH to stay. I put him out. He can go complain somewhere else, blame someone else.
The tension in the house was outrageous, and I was so wrapped up in trying to anticipate what might come next, that my poor kid was losing his mom, while he gained a vacant dad.
In my attempt to let RAH be with his family, to let our son be with his father, I allowed my sons schedule to be disrupted, his trust of his mama to be dimished, simply because all my focus was diluted. He never knew what to expect, and Lord, it was so confusing to me, imagine what its like for kids, of any ageframe!
when you wrote that he left, and that your daughter said that you were so crazy fun, and you know that that will be tamped down as soon as he returns because KING BABY needs to control the mood of the house passive aggressively, yadda yadda...I really heard that.
I was trying so hard to pretend that we were happy family, that I was blinded by the fact that my son had become depressed, withdrawn, had developed a facial tic, and was getting behavior reports at school. NOt a big Deal? Well not day to day, but when you look at it over a 4 month span, this was certainly a reaction to the mood of the house being unpredictable, controlled, and my energy being all stressy, no fun was coming out of me!
But my son was unable to voice this, because he s a child. He is not supposed to voice this. All he can do is act out, withdraw. EVEN BLAME ME. Which I kept RAH in the house over. That guilt, that my boy wanted his daddy.
But...Guess what? I went ahead, finally, and pushed RAH to leave, and to get his life in order WITH, BY , and FOR himself. No more pressure, blame, games, noe more passive mood shifting madness.
My son is mad at me. he is a smart and mature 6 years old. I am shouldering guilt and feeling unloved by him in my own immaturity (secretly, or course).
But, guess what else?
He has not had ONE behavior report from school. He laughs, he doesnt withdraw when the phone rings, knowing things are about to get tense, maybe even erupt into an argument, of which he cannot hear the other side of...
HIs facial tics stopped, and his counselor says that he is able to express anger at me over his daddy being gone, because he trusts me. He doesnt trust his dad. He would never tell his daddy he thinks he is wrong. My son is completely unsure of whether his father is available to stay after being disagreed with, or challenged.
My point is this:
If youc an get him out, your kids might whine and meow for a minute, maybe even a year. But they will know in time, and they will be happier, freer with you being happier and freer.
I am just now starting to accept that, yeah, it didnt work here, as a family, and maybe he will get healthier out there, and learn to be there for his son, emotionally.
But I am not going to put my son through being in that hailstorm while it hashes out.
I was wise enough to protect him from his active alcoholic father MOST of his life, with some lapses in judgement here and there, and physical sobriety did certainly not change the CLIMATE that my child and I were subjected to everyday.
He did not deserve that.
His counselor said something to me. It was so insightful that I almost cried.
My son was playing in the session, couselor asking him questions...Son said,
"I am angry at mama because she is the reason that daddy cant live with us. She gets too mad just because daddy just does whatever he wants. But thats not wrong. People should do whatever they want. "
The next session, after son had been having uncontrolled anger issues, RAH coming and going, still...counselor said why are you angry?
"Because I need to be able to do whatever I want, and mama wont let me. Its not wrong to do whatever you want."
Counselor said..."Is there anybody you can think of who does whatever they want to do? Anybody who doesnt have to follow rules, or gets to act in bad behavior?"
Son looked at me, looked at counselor. "Yes. My dad. he shouldnt do it, but he does. And I want to do whatever I want to do too."
I cried. When counselor and I spoke, he tried to explain to me how childrens minds work.
I said, "Oh, god, he is so angry at me I took his father away. "
counselor said, "
"Look, hes 6. Children of all ages process things differently. I know he is saying he is mad at you, not trusting you for taking his father away, but what is really affecting him badly is the fact that he now is having trouble trusting that you would make a decision to keep things calm and predictable for him. Of course he cant say that. HIs trust issue is really about you allowing things to get so confusing. Believe me, when RAH has been gone for a while, things get back on track, mood wise, predictability wise, he will be less angry at you. He will learn to trust you again. He is unable to voice all that, because he is a child. "
Sure enough, my son has really fallen back into a happier nook, since RAH has been gone, and I am really monitoring his contact with him. I will simply not stand for unpredictable erratic behavior when it comes to son.
AND, when RAH had to come by for a few days off and on this week, to deal with car stuff, my son said to me plainly,
"I feel nervous because I am not sure what is going to happen. "
He was talking about his dad and if his dad was going to be emotionally available that day, if he would have a mood swing, get really tired, shut down, snap at him, or lavish him with hugs and tickles.
I told RAH that he needs to make a schedule, for seeing son. If he cannot do it, it will wait til he can, and hopefully sons childhood will not pass him by. He agreed, sees the issue. He is coming around. He knows he is still pretty erratic for a child to deal with. I feel lucky that he does see this.
Its too darn much for us adults to live with, let alone kids or teenagers. I know it makes my head spin.
Just my story. Hope it speaks to you somehow.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
I have a 5 yr old and 3 yr old (girls) and they are in therapy. Hearing your T's assessment of things and what your son is saying about being angry that he can't do what he wants really hit me hard.
My 3 yr old gets out of control angry when she can't have what she wants. My 5 yr old too but to a lesser degree.
My H tells me I am too hard on them and he doesn't set limits with them. I do set limits and they push against them all the time.
It never occured to me that they had learned from HIM that they believe they should be able to do what they want when they want it... I had believed for a while now that it was bc of me being too strict.
Thanks for your post Buffalo- really really helpful for me.
My 3 yr old gets out of control angry when she can't have what she wants. My 5 yr old too but to a lesser degree.
My H tells me I am too hard on them and he doesn't set limits with them. I do set limits and they push against them all the time.
It never occured to me that they had learned from HIM that they believe they should be able to do what they want when they want it... I had believed for a while now that it was bc of me being too strict.
Thanks for your post Buffalo- really really helpful for me.
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