RECF

You wrote this yesterday. This is who you are.
I left my AH two months ago. I did what my mother wasn't able to do.
I had to keep quiet and smile and lie while I prepared.
If you can't kick him out now, get the sep. papers ready while you smile through your teeth.

Buffalo66

I have felt this way so many times.
I think it is the occupational hazard of trying to talk to someone who is still unable to own their own stuff.

You are wise for seeing that some of what he is nailing you on is accurate, but....

lets just take this apart for a second:

"Im no fun, never have been..."

You know this is not true. You have been living in a dark, toxic, and unbearable place for a long time. My RAH said, when he came back from treatment, while he was pink clouding it, "I can see you are just like a plant, and if I water, and care for you, and treat you right, you are not my enemy ata ll, you are a wonderful, loving, happy person." It didnt last, LOL...but it was true.

"Why cant I be like other wives and be more loving and understanding?"

You cannot know what other marriages are like. People keep things behind closed doors. Its all relative. And in this case, I have to say that hes got you drinking the kool-aid. Im sorry, but 'other wives' who dont have As as husbands, who are not lied to, who dont clean up messes ALSO have issues with their husbands. Its like that idea that everyone else is soooo well adjusted. No one is totally. If there are women out there who put up and shut up, while living with active alcoholism, then get through recovery without any resentment, without any residual crap, they are not in recovery themselves, and we all know everyone has their own bottom. That is their business and their problem. DO not compare your coping and managing your mess with how 'well' it seems that others do it. Its an illusion and only serves to feed your denial.

"Hes just being a guy, and made a few mistakes"

Yes. People make mistakes. And marriages end over it. You are unwilling to deal with certain things. You have boundaries. Some people overlook a few things. A life of unhappiness and resentment is not about a few mistakes. Its about an unworkable relationship.

"I feel broken and unworthy of love"

NO one is unworthy of love. Not even him. And there may be parts of you that feel broken and unmendable, but they may be only in relation to your ability to continue dancing with him. That is OK.

Truth is, people end marriages for a hell of a lot less than we deal with here at SR.
People end marriages because they get bored. Because they outgrow each other.

We cannot judge that.

Ease up on YOU, YOU deserve better treatment from yourself.

I think you are doing great, and its normal to question such a big step.

Thumper

Sharing my experience.

Living with my husband in the beginning of our divorce was hell and I regret those 5 months more then any other in my marriage - in my whole life even. Those 5 mos probably did more damage to our kids then the 10 years previous combined. It sounds as if your decision is to leave and if that is so, I would move forward, without delay, with whatever plans you need in order to get you two in separate houses because in my experience it gets worse. Two reasonable people might be able to pull that off but alcoholics are not reasonable and the further they get into the corner the crazier things get. The man that never followed through or fought for a single thing, that isolated himself in the basement for years, surfaced and was in my face 24/7 (quite literally) spewing anger, hate, guilt, power trips, and emotional manipulation I would have never dreamed possible.

I'm sorry but I don't remember how old your kids are. Mine were 3yo, 8yo, 10yo. I thought I was prepared for their reaction to the divorce but I was not. It was strong and it was heartbreaking. If you have any way to get some support from a counselor or some other kind of support - have it lined up.

I did not handle visitation well and they were with him when they shouldn't have been. If you think you might need help in this area bring it here or speak with your support system. Looking back I wish I would have been a better and more protective mother in that area. I was divorcing but I was still quite lost.

GettingBy

I think that's the "button" for me... I don't like sneaking around and lying to him. I HATED the feeling of signing the papers on Friday. I, for whatever sick and insane reason, wanted to talk to him and wanted to somehow believe that he and I would come to agreement on this. I guess I was hoping for his "permission" to end the marriage. I don't need his permission, or his approval, or agreement to get a divorce.

I am a good person, damnit. And so what if he and his alcoholic friends don't like me. I don't like them either.

Tuffgirl

I can't say much that hasn't already been said, except to add my name into the "been there, heard that" pile. And what a big stinkin thinkin pile of BS.

It's so classic alcoholic behavior...pick up a book, any book, and read about how alcoholics act. Then remember how yours acted throughout that conversation. They all do this to some degree - blame us - say we're the ones not "happy". I asked once for mine to "define happy" and all he could say was it would be "me being nice to him". WTF? Are you 5 years old now? Yeah, probably.

I found this last night while doing some homework. I cut and pasted it to save for those times when I was feeling down and stomped on (which anytime I have to talk to the RAH, I feel that way to some degree):

Six Fundamental Human Needs
To be treated as an individual
To express feelings
To receive empathic responses
To be recognized as a person of worth
To not be judged
To make one’s own choices and decisions

Sounds like you aren't getting your needs met, huh?! So go meet them yourself. That's your power.

Stay strong!

GettingBy

Ugh... so I sent my husband an email detailing that I thought it best that we figure out a way to separate our lives while living under the same roof. I mentioned that an interim plan might include separate bedrooms, split custody of the kids, etc.

I got UGLINESS in response. Telling me that this would hurt the kids more than a divorce. He wants life to go on status quo, apparently. Now he's saying he should have never talked to me last night because I'm "clearly using his words as yet another reaason to validate a divorce."

Quack-quack-quack. He's sending HUGE change back messages. I see that. He wants to shoot down everything I have to offer towards improving our situation... and doesn't want to offer any ideas on how to fix things. Nope, he just wants to sit back and blame, blame, blame.

So the why the HELL do I feel the need to still try and cooperate and negotiate with this emotional terrorist?!?!?!

Will somebody please smack me?

tjp613

You two need a TIME OUT!
Nothing is going to come from these discussions now. Let the dust settle for a day or two, then proceed.

Tuffgirl

I second that, thanks tjp! Yes - a time out would be good right now. He's made his feelings clear. Go think on it for a while, how this interim plan will look to you. You don't need to talk with him about it. You don't need his approval, permission, or agreement. Just go about your business and do what you need to do for you and you alone.

Hard to detach, isn't it? Especially once we've been revved up with complete injustices. I found it took a full 24 hours for me to unhook my claws from my self-righteous indignation after conversations like the one you had.

Step back, breathe, and let it go for today. Today you can do something for 12 hours that would appall you if you had to keep it up for a lifetime.

GettingBy

I know we need a time out. But I want so badly to keep responding to him, and defending myself. I know it won't help me.

But I'm hurt, and I'm mad.

And right now, I hate him. I just want space from him, and he won't give it to me. He insists that we stay in the house and keep up appearances to "protect the children." It just sceams WRONG to me to do that... and I want to fight him on it. I am MISERABLE being around him.

I HATE HIM SO MUCH RIGHT NOW.

LaTeeDa

It's weird how reading a thread like this can take me back in time. Eery, actually, because we all think our situations are so unique, but they're really so similar.

I was no fun.
I was inflexible.
I was frigid.
I was tearing our family apart.
I was taking his kids away. (this one said with tears)

He knew exactly what to say to me that would have the most impact. He knew all my soft, vulnerable places. (Like yours said something about your scar.) He had all the ammo to transform me into a quivering, unsure, puddle of tears. And he used that ammo to try and keep me where he wanted me.

I don't know how I would have made it through all that without my therapist. She was the one person I could tell all my fears and insecurities to without having them shot back at me like poison arrows. She had the clear head and common sense to see what he was doing, even if he didn't realize it.

Stop looking to him to make this better. He is incapable of making it better and will only make it worse. You need someone to help you work through all this with who can help you. He isn't it.

L

stella27

Oh LTD, how blind am I?!? I am reading this, my stomach is hurting, and I have to wonder WHY?

Because it's me, it's you, it's all of us. It's the story of the breaking-point of the alcoholic marriage and it HURTS. It can still hurt me.

gettingby, try journaling. Write him all the nasty stuff you want to say. just don't send it. Do not engage with him. he will only hurt you.

laurie6781

Okay here is what I see.

But first


*SMACK*

Was that a big enough smack? rofl

Now, you have been trying everything you could for over 5 years to make this work. IN that time he has in every way possible keep 'hitting' on you with remarks that eat at your self worth and self esteem. He used this again to make you doubt yourself.

Now what I see is a very great person. You are an Engineer! You work, you take care of the house and the kids and he does what? He lives in his own world of an alternate Reality.

Over the years he has slowly 'beat you down' so that he knows which buttons to push to make you 'doubt' what you are doing is right, when in your heart you KNOW without a doubt that you cannot subject your children to this type of life, nor can you continue to subject yourself to this.

It is time to stop 'hearing' him. When he opens his mouth to say anything make your mind go to QUACK QUACK QUACK.

As to working out living arrangements, do what you can for you ..... move to the guest bedroom if that will make you feel a bit better, on the weekends do things with your children, if he wants to join fine (but it will take away from his drinking) otherwise you and the kids go do things, be it a movie, the library, the zoo, etc

When you cook, certainly cook enough for him also if you FEEL like and don't if you don't, but you and the kids eat your meals together. You can also just do yours and the kids laundry and leave his be, including his dirty sheets, now that you will be sleeping in the guest bedroom.

You get the idea. Get those papers filed as quick as you can!!!!! You know this is what is best for YOU and THE CHILDREN.

Hope that helps.

Love and hugs,

GettingBy

Thanks everybody... I way lost it this morning. Total freak out. I had to step away from the keyboard for a few hours (no SR, no more emails to husband, etc). I spun out, and boy was it crazy.

I stepped off the concrete pad of truth and whirled around in the storm. Now, I'm exhausted.

I don't want a divorce, I really don't... and I let him get to me and spin me out... and make me doubt all those facts that I know so clearly.

I don't know how I'm going to cohabitate through the divorce process. I think I'm going to have to just keep chanting the serenity prayer...

GettingBy

I just re-read what I wrote... and I think it's confusing!!

I don't want the divorce... but I know it's the RIGHT thing to do! And I exposed to him that I don't want the divorce (vulnerability is never good to show to an A!)... and he in turn twisted and manipulated me.

LaTeeDa

I honestly don't know of many people who would say they wanted a divorce. Lord knows I tried anything and everything I could possibly think of to avoid one. Heck, I didn't want it so bad that I stayed separated for two years before I finally went through with it.

It was sad, it was hard, and it just plain sucked to think that I wasn't going to get my "happily ever after." But, given the choices, I'm glad that I went through the intense short-term pain rather than continuing to live with the soul-destroying long-term pain.

Hugs to you. I know how hard this this.

L

LexieCat

GB,

Do you have advice from a LAWYER about what happens if a spouse leaves the house prior to a divorce being final? I find it VERY hard to believe all those things you seem to believe are "automatic" in terms of how the court will view "abandonment" etc. I don't practice law in, nor do I live in, New York, but I am pretty sure that the parties can agree to any arrangement they want. It kinda sounds as if you've been reading articles that say how certain things COULD play out in a worst-case scenario. But if you wanted him to stay in the kids' lives, his leaving wouldn't prevent you from allowing that.

Have you gotten some advice from a real-life family law attorney?

GettingBy

I have retained a lawyer that specializes in family and marital law. I've met with him twice and talked three times on the phone. His exact words were, "if either of you leaves the marital home, and leaves the other spouse there with the kids, it is generally seen as abandonment and hinders any argument for joint custody". That action generally implies that the parent left behind with kids is the seen as the more fit parent.

In addition to that, if husband leaves and establishes a home some place else, it makes it more difficult for me to get money from him to pay marital home expenses (ie. He now has additional expenses and less ability to pay spousal support).

Now, mind you, this is my best understanding... And I'm no attorney. My attorney does know that I 1) have no interest in taking kids away from ah and 2) I'm absolutely unable to foot the marital home bills alone.

I agree that if two people come to an agreement, it doesn't matter what court precedent is. But, that all depends on my AH consistently working amicably with me. I believe that is my attorney's concern... Not so much the custody of the kids, but protecting my chances for spousal support.

The one point that attorney has made VERY clear... He will not hesitate for one second if the slightest abuse occurs. He has temporary restraining orders, custody and occupancy drafted and ready should the need arise. Then, AH can be forced out of the house and I won't lose any chance for support.

Does that make sense Lexiecat? Again, that's my understanding of what I hear.

Searching81

Reading about your story makes me truly understand that mine is not special or unique. Being in a relationship with an alcoholic is so very, very exhausting. They manipulate and tear us down to make themselves feel better. High expectations and high standards are not bad things.

I hope you know you sound really strong to have signed the papers and done that much so far. I am really impressed that he can be so fully in his manipulation game and you can stick to your guns. Thank you for being an inspiration.

LexieCat

Yup, that makes a lot more sense to me. You were giving kind of a shorthand version.

Eventually, though, someone is going to move, and there WILL be more expenses for both of you. Whether it happens now or before the divorce really doesn't make any difference in that respect, in terms of support.

I think he is right about the parenting thing if one of you were to just up and leave the other with no contact and no support. HOWEVER, my guess is that every one of those consequences could be avoided with proper planning. For example, something in writing that this action is by mutual agreement and that both parties agree that the mere act of physically moving does not prejudice the party moving out in terms of parental interest or rights.

Does he have a lawyer, or is he still so in denial he can't face up to it?

I think with the way things have been going, it is going to be hell on you and the kids for you to keep living together pending a divorce. I lived at home for many months while I was "separated" from my first husband (at his request, due to his work schedule--we had decided the kids were staying with him), but I made it clear that if he made it too difficult I would leave. He kept his word--we had one ugly argument the whole time--but we had an unusually amicable parting.

What if you were to rent another apartment and alternate weeks at home with the kids? Just throwing out ideas...

LexieCat

Er, I meant "whether it happens now or AFTER the divorce."

Sheesh, coffee hadn't kicked in, yet.