wanttobehealthy

I belong to another message board that deals with BPD bc before I realized my H was an alcoholic he was told by a therapist about a year ago that he fit the criteria for BPD (and that was the end of seeing that therapist).

What I have since learned is that while there is active alcoholism (or any substance abuse) it is impossible to determine whether the behaviors that look like BPD or NPD are actually "real" BPD/NPD or whether they are bc of alcoholism.

Utimately it's like a chicken/egg question. Many with personality disorders self medicate with substance abuse and many with substance abuse have underlying issues they have not dealt with, don't realize exist probably and their alcoholic behaviors look and sound a lot like the behaviors of BPD.

What I have learned on the other board and in al anon is that what is recommended for dealing with/living with someone with one (bpd or alcoholism) is pretty much the same. Don't engage, don't take the accusations personally (if you can), realize that there is lots of projecting that goes on, deep down they hate themselves and take it out on those closest to them, inability to manage emotions, need to detach from it as best you can, live your own life etc...

I've been amazed at how much I think about BPD while in al anon and how much I think about alcoholism when talking with friends about BPD...

There is definitely a connection...

Verbena

I agree that's an over generalization. My AH acts crazy when he's drinking heavily because his brain has been hijacked by alcohol. The alcohol makes him crazy, not a personality disorder.

I'm currently reading Beyond The Influence. Frankly it scares the heck out of me because the brain science is something I can't really dispute. No pop psychology there.

Alcoholism is progressive. It isn't curable. Cravings for alcohol do lessen over time. They don't ever completely disappear. And, the longer it takes for someone to stop drinking the harder it is to stay away from alcohol.

Recovering alcoholics who manage to stay sober, deserve gold medals and public accolades just like Olympic athletes. The strength of character is takes to stay sober is something "normal" people underestimate. We have no concept. We think giving up our cigarettes or loosing twenty pounds is hard. They are a walk in the park compared to getting sober and staying that way.

wicked

Yay! Thank you Verbena. I am an RA.

I would like to add myself to the percentage of alcoholics who do NOT have a personality disorder.
I have seen a psychiatrist (in fact a few in the past 20 years) and have been diagnosed by more than one professional to have a major depressive disorder. A mood disorder.
I do not know if your ex is borderline or narcissistic, but if he is, you should run as far and as fast as you can. Someone with a borderline or narcissistic personality disorder does not believe they have a problem, and are therefore nearly imposssible to treat.
You as a person are not really real to them, you are an object to be manipulated.
I have personal experience with this particular kindof mindf**k.

If you continue to contact him, or try to be his "friend" he will devour you.
someone has a signature about dragons.



You seem very angry Summerpeach. I do not think calling this woman a pig is good for you.
This whole relationship seems to have really twisted you up.
Yeah, I know, you are fine.

Beth

Shellcrusher

Naw. Obtuse generalization.

wicked

Just sayin!

wanttobehealthy

After reading some of the recent posts, I just want to say that as much as we are encouraged to understand that A is a disease and to understand/not take the A's behavior personally etc... BPD and NPD are no more choices than A is- PD's are a disease/a mental illness. It's not a choice someone makes. I think we'd do well to apply the same thought process we apply to A's behavior and the disease's impact on a person to PD's...

Someone with active A behaves much like a Borderline- everything is someone else's fault, always justified in behaving how they behave... The difference is that the A is rationalizing and the person with BPD TRULY believes what they are saying. If they FEEL something is is a FACT.

I work with 2 students with BPD, have a mother with BPD and a H with possible BPD and I feel empathy for them bc their disease is just that-- a disease. It is a mental illness that is not a choice they bring on themselves and I'd just caution us here to not get overly judgemental about those with BPD or NPD just as we are not to get overly judgemental about A.

The way that persons with PD's treat others is awful, no doubt. But so is the treatment that A's dish out. The "solution" is to deal with someone with a PD the same way we deal with A's. Detach, worry about ourselves. When the discomfort a PD'd person or A feels is greater than their fear of changing or questioning their beliefs, that's when they will seek help.

A person with a PD is no more or less likely to change than is an A. At least that's my understanding from dealing with therapists working with my students, belonging to a message board for those living with someone with PD etc...

I'm not saying excuse the behavior of those with PD, but maybe we shouldn't be overly harsh....

Shellcrusher

I know. I reckon I could say that all us codies have personality disorders and that wouldn't be received to well either. I'm just tossing the ball back over the fence.

LaTeeDa

My point wasn't anything to do with whether he's crazy or not. More to do with how it can't be all that good for you to go on obsessing about it and letting his problems occupy so much space in your head.

I found a lot more peace when I got to work figuring myself out. Why was I attracted to people who hurt me? Why was it so difficult to let go of him and his problems? What beliefs was I carrying around that no longer served my best interests? Those are the kind of questions that really helped me start living a better life.

The world is full of crazy/addicted/toxic people. I cannot possibly learn the details and symptoms of every single disorder just to keep myself safe from them. I must focus on myself and what is good and acceptable in my life. Life is too short to waste time figuring out why toxic people are toxic. Much better to just avoid them altogether. And it's a big enough task already trying to figure out my own self.

L

StarCat

I would not say that all A's have personality disorders.
I will say, though, that it's not uncommon for those with undiagnosed personality disorders to self-medicate with alcohol and other drugs. I won't list numbers, because I don't know them, but I do know it's common enough that there have been plenty of studies on the effect.

That said, I do believe there is a possibility that my XABF does have a personality disorder - or he could be a deeply troubled individual with a lot of things in his past that he is trying to avoid, by drinking and blameshifting/projecting onto others.

Buffalo66

I have said this so many times to myself, and on this board...

If someones treatment of you makes you wonder if they are a sociopath, a malignant narcissist, etc... Then it really doesn't matter whether they are those things or not.
The way you experience them is all that matters. And that is really all you need to know in your decision to take an action in response to that treatment. Intolerable behavior, for me doesn't get more tolerable if he is a diagnosed bi polar, a narcissist, a drunk, or an a**hole.
I need to decide whether I can bend anymore to accept the behavior.

When I make the reasons and justifications for him, I am still in my own sickness.

That being said, I am still a little sick. Because I still search info on PDs, Dry Drunk Syndrome, NPD.
Somehow, a part of ME must be trying to make a believable story out of his treatment of me;
He does it because he has no conscience...
He does it because he's an addict...
He does it because he has a personality or mood disorder..

Which answer will make me feel that I genuinely don't deserve the treatment no matter the reason for it, the source of it?

Truth is, that answer isn't in wondering about or labeling him. That's my work.
I'm working on it.

wicked

Wow, Buffalo, you are really doing the hard work.
This is wonderful for you.
Thank you for posting and continued recovery to you.

Beth

StarCat

In my case, the information I am seeking on his behavior is to calm the little voice in the back of my head trying to convince me that he was right, and it really was my fault.

My conscious thoughts recognize that this is false, and his behavior is his and his alone, and has nothing to do with anything I did or didn't do.

I just hope that if I throw enough facts back there, about how this is his issue and these are the things that really made him act the way he did, my unconscious thoughts will agree with me, and let go of the self-blame that keeps popping up at random intervals.


((((((B66))))))
You are doing great!

Bolina

Isn't it funny how the answer to almost any personal interaction problem is "Develop Healthy Boundaries"?

sunshine321

The behaviors are similar. They get sober and the "medication" is gone and now all the things that drove them to self-medicate are hanging out there, raw. Their brain chemistry is still sick. Years of his own trauma didn't help and I was the one closest to take it out on. I was the one who wouldn't expose him. He kept on being that "great guy" to the outside. Even more of a great guy to everyone now that he chose sobriety. It was a hard pill to swallow because I knew the truth. My RXABF was worse than ever and even more mean once he got sober. I couldn't take the abuse anymore. I needed to get away. It was too much for me even working my program for two years and doing my best to take care of me. And my kids didn't need to be around it either. However, that being said, I don't think he has any mental disorder. I think his childhood just really messed him up.

Maybe your Ex is mentally ill, maybe not. For your sake, you don't need to know unless you have children with this man. If you don't, move on mentally and take care of you. I understand your anger, I really do. I have still have it myself. But as time goes on and I begin to forgive myself for allowing myself to be in that situation, the anger is fading. Soon I hope it disapates for good.

Peace,
Jen

Buffalo66

Yes, starcat. Me too
It is addressing that doubt back there... That insidious nagging doubt that somehow you or I deserve the crazy making mind f*cling games...

We know the answer.

I am wrestling with the fact that it is this doubt back there that is my sickness.
It is this doubt about what I deserve or what I caused that creates the blind spots in me that allowed me to be attracted to this person to begin with. To fall in line with his portrayals of his behavior, to abandon my higher self and all her instincts and to take part in his denials or projections.

That doubt about whether I deserve the treatment, about whether he may be right is a big screen for his projections to land on.

I am slowly taking that screen down. I am slowly deconstructing that doubt. It feels like rocket science and brain surgery all rolled together.

Thumper

Yes!

To read it sounds so simple but I have found that boundaries of all sorts (physical, emotional, in a relationship, with myself) are extremely complicated and for me, anything but simple.

Bolina

Ah, now I never said they were easy, Thumper!

I understand the need to find out WHY some people have behaved atrociously towards me. It did help to have some insight, I must admit. And I would never have reached the point where I can think "Some people are jerks, some people are nasty and some people are dangerous. This is what I will do to protect myself." had I not done some reading around the subject. There came a point, though, when it was just another way to avoid looking at myself and my life.

Tuffgirl

And be prepared to be flexible, while accepting personal responsibility for how flexible you choose to be. We let our "toxic" people toxic-fy (I think I just made up that word) our lives. That's our responsibility. It really doesn't matter if those toxic people are addicts or mentally ill or just plain selfish a-holes.

Summerpeach - you sound very angry and hurt. I don't blame you. What a lousy situation to have to deal with, but detachment does wonders as others here have posted. Giving this guy this much space in your head - for nothing - isn't worth it. He doesn't deserve your time and energy anymore.

IMHO, your conversations with him are futile. You KNOW the truth already, why bother trying to convince him over and over again? That's crazy train emotional roller coaster behavior, guaranteed. And it keeps you hooked and engaged with him.

I really had to ask myself, "why do I NEED to be right?" when what I really WANT is for this part of my life to be over? As soon as I let go of that need to be right and justified, everything just seemed to fall back into place again. The anger left, the resentments subsided, I felt peaceful again.

Hoping your day gets better,
~T

StarCat

This was actually part of the topic at my Al-Anon meeting this week.
Someone had a great acronym.

Before talking, as yourself, is this...
True
Helpful
Important
Necessary
Kind

Putting things through that filter, I know I am less prone to continue losing arguments now, because at some point in arguments with people who don't listen, it simply isn't any of those things anymore.

LaTeeDa

Yes, there is knowing, and then there is knowing.

What I found when I started to dig deeper into my recovery was that there was this intellectual part of me that was oh so clever and smart. That part of me knew I didn't deserve mistreatment, that I was a fine and whole person all on my own, and that I didn't want or need an alcoholic mucking up my life.

But, that part of me wasn't in control of my actions. The part of me that controlled what I did was much less sophisticated, and buried much deeper in my psyche. It was the fearful child who had listened and absorbed the messages received at a very young age. That I was less than, incomplete, lacking, a failure. Those messages were very powerful and very difficult to overcome.

It's not something you can "think" your way out of. It's much deeper than that.

L

ETA: We were posting at the same time Starcat. My "think" in quotes has nothing to do with your think acronym.......