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step 9, on the receiving end...FORGIVING

Old 03-09-2011, 03:02 PM
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step 9, on the receiving end...FORGIVING

STEP 9: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible except when to do so would injure them or others.


Have you ever received an amend from your "A" or "NA"? and did you forgive them? or do we need to?
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:15 PM
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Nope and never expect to.

He's done the steps before and always managed to utilise the caveat of 'harming' to justify why he won't nut up and explain/apologise/amend. I doubt (if he is once again working the steps) this time will be any different.

I already forgave. I did it purely selfishly in order to move on with my life and not carry mental scars of what he did as well as the physical one I will have the rest of my life. I didn't express this to him and he doesn't know this.

If.. and oh lordy it is a big if.. he ever gets in contact with me to make amends, I will read it (because it is more than likely to be via email) then I will consign it to the the b1n file.

Tx
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:15 PM
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I am an "A" as you call us and I'm about 1/2 way done with my amends list.

Just posting to say I'm interested to hear the responses.

Kjell~
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:47 PM
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Nope, never been on the receiving end. XAH used the line "I'm going to AA now and I have so many amends to make to you," to get me to come home when I left him. Ohh, how sweet, how great... what a crock. He wasn't going to AA then.

He used it with his sister when she went to the family meetings at his in-patient rehab. She did the same thing I did "I think he's really getting better, TheUncertainty. I think he's really working the program. He told me he needs to make amends to you and DS and the rest of our family."

I'm pretty sure he can't work the steps if he doesn't think he has a problem and says he isn't "one of those people." (His and his GF's words.)
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:13 AM
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No, and I am not holding out hoping.
To be honest, at this point, I am hoping he doesn't, because he has already broken the "no contact" too many times, and used insincere apologies to pull me back too many times.
I hope he finds sobriety, and works on correcting his abusive behaviors, and sincerely completes his 12 steps... but at this point I do feel that him trying to contact me for any reason would cause more harm than good.

That said, I forgave him anyway. He is a sick man, with way too many worries on his plate than just what he put me through.
I forgave him for my own sake, so that I can move on.
I like to think I also forgave him for the sake of that good sober non-abusive man hidden inside him somewhere, that may never see the light of day again, in the hope that forgiveness will make it easier for him to finally find the help that he needs, rather than use perceived hatred as another reason to keep reaching for the alcohol and hiding behind the abuse.

That said, forgiving him has helped me to let go of him, and let what happens happens, however he decides his own future.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:16 AM
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Yes indeed I recently received a 9th step amends from my RXABF. He in fact nagged me about it for almost a year on and off. I just wasn't ready to sit and hear it. And I had to feel he was sincere or I think I would have reacted badly to it. Not just something he was required to do to get through his steps.

It was hard to hear some of the things he apologized for. It kind of put me back to a place I didn't want to go back to. On the other side of the coin, it was good to hear that he admitted his abusive and bullying behavior and that he knows he blamed me for everything and knows that it's not true. He also said that no human being should ever have to live with that kind of rage. So I guess I was mixed. We didn't rehash everything and in fact, I mostly listened using my Al-Anon skills. He invited me to talk anytime and ask any questions. I did ask a few or made some statements but I kept it limited.

It helped his recovery to move forward. It probably helped mine a bit too. I still feel angry and resentful toward him and I suspect it's going to take some time to undue the damage from living with someone who abused me. I think in time I will be able to forgive him and myself for putting up with it. I'm just not there yet. Progress not perfection.

With all that being said, our communication isn't any different. We are still formal and don't talk about anything except directions, instructions or information concerning our daughter. It's probably better that way.

Peace,
Jen
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by fourmaggie View Post
STEP 9: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible except when to do so would injure them or others.


Have you ever received an amend from your "A" or "NA"? and did you forgive them? or do we need to?

I was looking for a emoticon laughing hysterically bc no, I have NEVER received a sincere, step 9 apology from AH. He says sorry only to wrap up his latest transgression and move on to justifying the next one. There is no normal, adult, human being process of learning from the mistake and changing the behavior. As long as an "I'm sorry" comes out of his mouth- no matter what he's done- he's convinced himself he's home free.

AND he's told me that making amends is for those outside of the family whom he's hurt and who haven't contributed to the problem. I am guessing that's not true!

This is the same mentality that has him saying things like "I can only love our D's (not you) wholly and without conditions bc they are pure and haven't hurt me". Irony of irony. He who hurts me constantly, sees himself as a victim if I lose my patience with him and then he justifies his continued mistreatment of me by telling himself that I've hurt him so it's okay... I guess using that logic I can go out and do anything I want for years to make up for the hurts he's caused.

My H (to hear him talk-- maybe what he thinks is different) does not think he has done anything to me that necessitates making amends...
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:36 AM
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Ok, here goes.

As a recovering A, when I did my Step 9 amends, those amends were to 'acknowledge' my 'wrongs' to others individually. Before I could do each amend, it was necessary for me to sit and meditate and make sure that what I was about to do was appropriate and that I would ask HP's help in making sure that I made sure I took my full responsibility without pointing any fingers elsewhere. Whether the person 'forgave' me or not was not a part of it.

When I did my Step 9 in Alanon, the same thing held true.

Now when I have received an amend or not received an amend, when I 'forgive' someone, it is NOT for them. It is for ME. There is a line in "The Lord's Prayer" that says:

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Whew, that one, when I was finally clear headed enough to understand it, was like a 2 x 4 up side my forehead. I was asking HP to forgive me the way I forgive others.

So for me, I have found that 'forgiveness' of others is very important to me. Every time I am able to 'forgive' another, be they an A or not, whether they have made an amend or not, it takes away a little more of the darkness from my soul and allows me to move forward without bitterness.

It would be nice to hear 'amends' from some of the A's in my life (at least those that are still living). Will I? Who knows. Does it matter? NO. I forgave them a long time ago. I cannot hang onto that bitterness, it is baggage just too heavy for me to carry.

J M H O

Love and hugs,
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:43 AM
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Like I said above, I'm an "A" and I'm almost done with all 12 steps (on step 12 in the big book).

I have a long list of amends to make (almost 100), but that's also b/c I'm honestly trying to not leave anything or anyone out.

This whole process, working the steps, is changing who I was, but I also wanted that change, though didn't know it until after I got sober.

All of my amends, yes, they make me feel better and it's so important for me to make these amends so I'm not carrying it around any longer either.

I can only hope there is some healing with the person who was harmed as well, but that's completly out of my control now, even though my amends are sincere.

It's just sad and it feels, in some cases, like it was a different person who commited those harms/wrongs.

...I guess in some ways it was.

Kjell~
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:07 PM
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Forgiving..... Been thinking more. And realized a couple things, that I didn't address the forgiveness part of the post and all I've come to SR for is when I'm dealing with XAH. But there are other As in my life.... An 'uncle' (mom's long time BF - long story), his daughter, my XAH's niece (not sure she's still my niece after this past year)....

I can and have forgiven my RA uncle, A cousin and XAH's niece. No step 9's from them.... I think I can forgive my xSIL for never being there to help me in my struggle with XAH, even though she saw and knew, for dropping me after telling me she'd always wanted a sister.

XAH....

I get how forgiveness is for me, not him. I know I can't do it yet. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to. I may be able to stop thinking about him and life with him... Forgiving him looks incredibly far away, IF it's possible.

I know I'll have my own amends to make as I work through the steps....
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:22 PM
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I got an amends a couple of weeks ago from my husbands sister who has been clean for 13 years..her stepson that she raised was killed and it spurred her to reconnect to her brother and I and apologize for her prior behavior while using...I had already forgiven her as my own daughter is an addict and I realized what had been going on with her years ago..but it was really nice to hear it, and has opened the door for moving on to a new relationship with each other...
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:59 PM
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Thank you for posting this topic! I haven't. I've been sort of wondering if he would, or if I'd even make 'the list'. For me it is more curiousity as to what he would say because yeah, it is more about what it does for him than anything for me.

I would like him to at least acknowledge how his brand of crazy affected me. I know he gets that on a deeper level so maybe the amends for me is an ongoing process. As I understand it, some amends are like that, just about being a BETTER person to you on an ongoing basis.

The idea of amends though troubles me because I do believe accountability is more than a letter or talk about how crappy they treated you, it is about ONGOING integrity when in recovery.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:03 PM
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I've been thinking about this since you posted it...

...and on and off for awhile. Wife is working the steps right now, and I know she's on step 6. The closer she gets to step nine the more worried I'm getting. I really don't want to hear it. We talked about it the other day, and she's actually looking forward to it! Damn it!

In my normal passive-aggressive way, every chance I get to invoke, "except when it would cause harm to them or others," I take it. I should probably just tell her I am scared of it.

I guess more truth telling is in order. I ******* hate that!

Cyranoak
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:03 AM
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I haven't ever received an amend that was an outright sit-down apology. But the change in my Mother's behavior when she stopped drinking meant more to me than a conversation about her drinking or an apology ever could have. I only thought about this after she died. My amend to her was to work (hard) on doing things differently and to directly apologise to her. Her amend (she didn't work a program) was simply being present again.

I feel really strongly about this one - I recently had cause to consider what makes for a real apology versus lip-service. A real apology, for me, is a thoughtful acknowledgement of how your behavior or actions might have affected the other person, a no-excuses "I'm sorry" and a commitment either not to repeat the behavior or to do better next time. The middle part, for me, seems to be the easy part.

I read once that forgiving someone and moving on are two separate things. I think with my XABF there are some things that I don't know I forgive him for and never will. I don't hold a resentment towards him, and I'm at a place of acceptance but I don't think that's the same as being able to say to him, even in my head, "I forgive you." I feel like forgiveness is dispensation in some way.

I'm sure that the paragraph above shows glaring holes in my recovery but I think oftentimes we hear about forgiveness as thought it's the same thing as releasing a resentment. For me (personal opinion) there is a difference. I'm over the pain and chaos that my ex caused me - and I accept that a lot of it had absolutely nothing to do with me (three Cs). If he showed up and tried to make an amend could I say "that's ok, I forgive you"? Don't think so and I'm not ashamed to say so.

Take what you like etc. etc.

SL
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:47 AM
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I'm an alcoholic, and this is one of my favorite subjects. IMHO too many people are wimps about this part of the program (which actually starts with step 4). A few random thoughts on this:

* Protecting yourself via the "except when to do so would hurt them or others" is complete ********. We A's do not deserve that protection, the steps are there so we can deal with the consequences of our drinking. Anyone who disagrees should read the 12x12 on the 9th step, as well as some of Bill W's and Dr Bob's writings on the 9th step.

* An apology is not an amends. An amends almost always includes an apology but rarely is an apology enough. Did you steal money to support your habit? Pay it back. Did you bad-mouth someone to others when they were not around? Call each of these people up, tell them you were a drunken lying fool and none of it was true - preferably in the presence of the person you bad mouthed.

* You cannot make amends for everything. If you were not around when your kids were growing up, for example, those years are gone and there is nothing you can do to make up for that. This does not mean you do not try. Partial amends are possible, and you may be forgiven your misdeeds (as someone else said on this thread, she forgave her XAH for selfish reasons, so she could move on). If the latter happens you are still required to make the amends wherever possible.
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:07 AM
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I like all the thoughts expressed here. I am not to Step 9 yet. I've done what I can on an ongoing basis to change my behavior toward those I have wronged, but I know there will be substantially more work to do.

I don't recall whether my first husband ever made a formal amends to me--it was a long time ago, and we were married after he was sober for a year. I do know that he was a good husband and partner, and has been a wonderful dad to our kids. A "formal" amends would have been strictly for his benefit--he made right everything he needed to make right. I know I owe him one at some point, when I have finished what else I need to do.

Sometimes sponsors will counsel their sponsees to wait a bit before tackling certain amends--to make sure it's for the right reasons, and done in the right way. Even if you shouldn't put it off forever on the theory that it might harm the other person (sometimes that IS a loophole we're hoping for), there CAN be harm in not doing it at the right time and in the right spirit and in the right way.

As for forgiveness, I don't think an amends is necessary for that. Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves to set us free from anger and resentment that messes up OUR lives. It doesn't mean what the other person did was OK, and it doesn't mean we put ourselves in a position to be re-victimized by that person. It just means letting go of the hold their actions have had on us.
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Old 03-11-2011, 09:27 AM
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I'm an alcoholic, and this is one of my favorite subjects. IMHO too many people are wimps about this part of the program (which actually starts with step 4). A few random thoughts on this:

* Protecting yourself via the "except when to do so would hurt them or others" is complete ********.
I like your thinking bc I have heard this as an excuse from AH and his FAMILY as justification for continued lying about his actions. Clearly not what step 4 is really about but he sure wants to believe what he wants to believe...

We A's do not deserve that protection, the steps are there so we can deal with the consequences of our drinking. Anyone who disagrees should read the 12x12 on the 9th step, as well as some of Bill W's and Dr Bob's writings on the 9th step.

* An apology is not an amends. An amends almost always includes an apology but rarely is an apology enough.
This is just my personal thoughts as an alcoholics wife. IF an apology were sincere AND it meant (in the way I mean it when I apologize) that I will actively work to NOT do the same thing again, then really and truly the apology WOULD be enough... I can let the past be the past if my H could just choose to do things different in the future. But he seems to feel that saying "sorry" means that issue is wrapped up and done and he has a clean slate to screw up again, say sorry, have no guilt and on and on it goes... Words when they are shown to be true via action really can be enough (for me at least!)

Did you steal money to support your habit? Pay it back.
Did you bad-mouth someone to others when they were not around? Call each of these people up, tell them you were a drunken lying fool and none of it was true - preferably in the presence of the person you bad mouthed.
I think that this has been THE single most hurtful thing my AH has done to me. He feels bad, on the phone or email he goes and slam the wife game begins. His family hates me, his friends hate me and when he sobers up or gets past the ****** mood he's in that gets him making these calls there are never calls about how forgiving and caring I am... I hate it. I'd die on the spot if he ever were to do what you bolded above... Boy, that would be something. Do people REALLY ever do that in recovery?

* You cannot make amends for everything. If you were not around when your kids were growing up, for example, those years are gone and there is nothing you can do to make up for that
.

True, but can't you use the present to try and make up for it or acknowledge the hurt it caused your kids? My AH says this: "it's done and in the past so let it go". But his kids who he's let down remember the events, the day trips, the promises he's broken and he's never addressed that hurt. He can't go back in time and make a different choice but he can acknowledge their hurt and I bet that would go a long way toward helping them move fwd too... Is that talked about as part of step 9 at all? I'm really just curious-- want to understand more...
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Old 03-11-2011, 09:48 AM
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Dgilllz, thank you so much for your post. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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Old 03-12-2011, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by theuncertainty View Post
Dgilllz, thank you so much for your post. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank my sponsor, he is the one that drilled this thinking into my alcoholic brain. There is not a single thing in my post that I believed when I first got to AA. This is the result of working the steps.
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:57 PM
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Well, quite honestly, my RAXH might be in "recovery" and may be "attending meetings" but the quotation marks are very much called for (and I hate quotation marks). He probably thinks he's done step 9 by saying "I acted badly BUT..." and lately, he's back to telling me that I caused him to drink because I was such a b***h he couldn't handle life with me. (Which is why he desperately wants me back. You know. It all makes so much sense.)

I have been on the receiving end of amends from a RA coworker, who while still an active A would (inappropriately) make sexual advances toward me. He wrote me a letter and asked if I would feel uncomfortable meeting with him in person (him and his sponsor), because, he said, "it would be extremely easy for me to write an apologetic letter to you for what I did; I don't want to take the easy route, I want this to hurt so I remember it -- but I completely and utterly respect if you feel uncomfortable and don't want to meet with me."

I did. I always liked the man; he was never threatening in any way, even as a drunk (just very sad). There was ZERO doubt that his apology and his regret was sincere. Zero. He told me that I was a very attractive woman (I was also 20 years his junior), but that his way of telling me that was disrespectful and clumsy and rude and wrong, in addition to which it disrespected not only me but also his wife. He was so nervous he was shaking while he was talking to me. It was easy to forgive him.

But I think it was easy to forgive him because I was pretty far down on his list. His sponsor had him make the list and work it from the bottom up, from the "small" amends to the biggies...
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