I know this will "stir up the pot" I know this will "stir up the pot" but I need to get some other perspectives on this. My husband entered rehab in July of 2010 while he was gone he asked me to read the chapter of the AA book called to the wives. I was more than happy to do so. As I read some of it was exactly how I felt and some actually offended me. I began researching about Bill W and cannot believe what I found. He was basically a sex addict, used LSD (even wanted everyone in AA to use LSD), came up with the 12 steps on hallucinogenic drugs in the hospital and ect. I have been questioning how AA or ALANON can work when it focuses on so much self centeredness. I understand there is a certain amount of time where this must be done in the beginning of recovery, but these organizations say forever you work these steps and live by there teachings. How can a person live life and find true happiness and spirtuality while always putting ones self first? I want to end this with I know this helps many people and I am very happy for them but I don't understand the long term effects of this program. I see that Bill W did not live a very happy life, in what is just my opinion, was because he didn't come full circle and work on all his mental issues and ended up substituting additions. Again this isn't to disrespect what is working for people but maybe to gain a different insight into how this can work and how to look past the transgressions of the man who founded AA. |
My husband entered rehab in July of 2010 while he was gone he asked me to read the chapter of the AA book called to the wives. I was more than happy to do so. As I read some of it was exactly how I felt and some actually offended me. I began researching about Bill W and cannot believe what I found. He was basically a sex addict, used LSD (even wanted everyone in AA to use LSD), came up with the 12 steps on hallucinogenic drugs in the hospital and ect. I thought "To the Wives" was a little out of date too, I am a recovering alcoholic and was also married to an alcoholic, but I was able to find parts that applied to me. I am not sure where you heard/read about the organizations say forever you work these steps and live by there teachings. but I don't understand the long term effects of this program. Maybe not just the program, but working recovery like their life depends on it. Go to some meetings and talk to the people with some time. You will find many different kinds of recovery and many different types of people. Are you looking for some type of guarantee? Bill W. was a human being. A very flawed human being. I dont understand how his shortcomings would affect your recovery today. No guarantees nbunderstanding. None. Work your recovery like you wish he would work his. Then you will know. Beth |
I began researching about Bill W and cannot believe what I found. He was basically a sex addict, used LSD (even wanted everyone in AA to use LSD), came up with the 12 steps on hallucinogenic drugs in the hospital and ect. All that said, the chapter "to wives" is dated. Take what you can and leave the rest. Better yet, assuming you are still working on the relationship, ask your AH what he expected you to get from that chapter, and discuss it. Alanon would be great too. Keep coming back, there is a lot of support here. |
Originally Posted by Rayn3dr0p
(Post 2888488)
As a codie, who often puts the needs of others before my own, I would rephrase your question: how can a person live life and find true happiness and spirituality without putting one's self first? Everything we do is self motivated. Mother Teresa was motivated by her love of God and humankind. |
Originally Posted by Rayn3dr0p
(Post 2888488)
"How can a person live life and find true happiness and spirtuality while always putting ones self first?" As a codie, who often puts the needs of others before my own, I would rephrase your question: how can a person live life and find true happiness and spirituality without putting one's self first? How do we overlook the transgressions of anyone? How do we forgive our own transgressions? Is it fair to judge and condemn or is it ok to accept that the program that he initiated has helped thousands of people? Forgiveness is the keystone of compassion. Not sure if you're a religious person but some of the greatest spiritual leaders in history befriended and forgave some pretty unscrupulous people. I prefer to look at the good that comes from AA, NA, Alanon, Naranon. Take what you need and leave the rest. gentle hugs |
I began researching about Bill W and cannot believe what I found. He was basically a sex addict, used LSD (even wanted everyone in AA to use LSD), came up with the 12 steps on hallucinogenic drugs in the hospital and ect. There has been some talk about him being unfaithful, but being unfaithful and a full blown sex addict are not the same thing. He did not come up with the 12 steps on drugs. He developed the 12 steps from the 6 steps of the Oxford group, expanding them to be more oriented to alcoholism. There has been talk that he experimented with LSD, but apparently, if that is true, and it is still debatable that it is nothing but a rumor, that was very close to the end of his life. It's not possible he would have suggested LSD anyway for the first 30 years of AA history, because LSD wasn't popularized and generally available to the public until the 1960's. I am not sure where you have gotten the impression that AA is about self-centeredness: it is the exact opposite. Time and time again in the Big Book, recovering alcoholics are advised to put their egos aside, stop thinking about themselves and think about others. |
First off, I want to say this is my first post, and I have enjoyed reading and learning from each of you for the past month as I have been lurking for awhile. I would like to share my "take" on the idea of putting yourself first. In order to function and properly care about your family, friends, etc. it's important to take care of yourself physically, mentally, emotionally. I don't think that the idea of putting yourself first means in any way that you have to set everything to YOUR standards, or draw a line that YOUR way is the only way. It's about making sure you are healthy in those aspects of your life, so that you can cope with the ever changing dynamics we face every day. Think about it. You try to eat well, exercise, take vitamins, to protect your physical health, is that being selfish? I don't think so at all. Same as seeking counseling or setting a boundary of tolerance of the behavior of other people (and I mean knowing your breaking point, not trying to control the behavior of another person). If you are not healthy, there is no way you can be of help and care to others. By putting yourself first, it's actually a selfless act, not a selfish one. Only when it becomes a "me me me" issue and you don't care about others do you become selfish. |
Hi, Cake! Welcome! Feel free to create a new thread so everyone can properly introduce themselves. peace |
I am my number one priority. I am my gatekeeper. Sure people love me and care about me and I them.. but when it comes to the crunch, I am responsible for the care and welfare of me first and foremost. I agree that that in itself is selfless and only when you expect others to 'do' for you does is lapse into selfishness. Tx |
You know what? If it works it works. Whether the guy who founded whatever treatment/recovery program worshipped his neigbor's rose bush, kicked cats, and secretly indulged in eating carrots backwards while chanting "I don't know but I've been told..." and marching in his back yard... it doesn't matter. The proof is in the pudding. And any time an A says "Um, after you read this, let's see if you don't agree with me that I don't need no stinkin' treatment program" I think is a good time to reach for your revolver. Metaphorically speaking, of course. |
I always get a bit itchy when I read that people expect BillW and the others to have become saints after creating AA. They're just people. Caravaggio created light that couldn't be reproduced by any of the other 'masters' and yet he was the ornriest, nastiest, most contrary personality to ever have peed in the renaissance streets. But the beauty he created remains. So does BillW's. That's the essence of 'take what you need and leave the rest'. I took what I needed and it has made all the difference. |
I half-heartedly attend alanon every now and then. It's not the only way to work out pain in relationships, it's just one method. I learn some interesting things there, and I enjoy watching people start feeling better after being deep in the dumps. One reason to attend is just to share the humanity of us all. I understand your confusion with the idea. It's not a perfect idea, probably nothing is. Cater it to you--that saying take what you like and leave the rest. If some of it works for you, keep that part, and throw away what doesn't. The important thing is that we each find our way out of our individual very personal pain. I'm working on mine--alanon is a piece of that work, but certainly not all. Welcome to SR--which doesn't embrace alanon per se--it's not affiliated. :) |
Hello nbunderstanding, and welcome to SoberRecovery :)
Originally Posted by nbunderstanding
(Post 2888475)
.....I know this will "stir up the pot" but I need to get some other perspectives on this. ....
Originally Posted by nbunderstanding
(Post 2888475)
..... I began researching about Bill W and cannot believe what I found..... If you have the time and continue to research AA you will find many of his publications where he states that he is _not_ the founder of AA. He credits Carl Jung, the psychologist, William James, the philospher, and the Oxford Groups. Something else you will find during your research is that AA, like all other self-help programs, goes to a great deal of trouble to _not_ have "leaders", "figure-heads" or "founders". Self-help groups are about a group of _equals_ sharing their personal experience in overcoming a common problem. Which is why self-help groups continue to flourish decade after decade.
Originally Posted by nbunderstanding
(Post 2888475)
..... How can a person live life and find true happiness and spirtuality while always putting ones self first? ....
Originally Posted by nbunderstanding
(Post 2888475)
..... I don't understand the long term effects of this program. ....
Originally Posted by nbunderstanding
(Post 2888475)
..... I see that Bill W did not live a very happy life, .... If you want a more "balanced" view of the whole recovery concept you might want to look into some newer books. 70 years is a _long_ time ago and the field of mental health has made a lot of improvement since then. The al-anon books are much more modern, and directed at us family members. You may find them a lot more useful.
Originally Posted by nbunderstanding
(Post 2888475)
..... maybe to gain a different insight into how this can work and how to look past the transgressions of the man who founded AA..... Mike :) |
I think the definition of "putting oneself first" changes for those who have recovered and AA has been a way or the way for many. Taking care of yourself is in fact taking care of other people. We learn to genuinely empathize/sympathize with other people and that becomes a reward in and of itself. I will say that I understand where you are coming from, AA by original design is meant to be full of sick people. |
Mine asked me to read that section too. I did. Then I told him he was out of his mind if he thought I was going to go out of my way not to upset him as it might cause him to drink. I'm not the cause, I can't control it and I can't cure it. Goes against all that AA stands for TODAY. but I'm of the stand that believes the BIG BOOK needs to be rewritten for the average alcoholic, one who doesn't have an extensive education to understand the terminology used and who lives in the current millenium...50 yrs ago the world was a different place. Women were of a different breed. We lived and breathed to care for our family and little else. Divorce was rare. Single parenting? uh uh. Teen parents? forget that...they went away and came back w/ a story about helping a sick aunt... the world is a VERY different place and I only wish AA would keep up. I think it would really help the younger A who are entering and seeking help. |
I would just add that you find a copy of Lois Wilson"s story - the founder of alanon and see if it doesn't give you more of a perspective. I think the idea of self first is about learning to take responsibility for our thoughts, emotions and behavior. Reading "Just for Today" a poem is another way to look at this too. |
Originally Posted by blwninthewind
(Post 2888809)
....I'm of the stand that believes the BIG BOOK needs to be rewritten for the average alcoholic .... Alcoholics Anonymous : Pamphlets
Originally Posted by blwninthewind
(Post 2888809)
.... I think it would really help the younger A who are entering and seeking help..... http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-4_youngpeopleandaa.pdf In the bigger cities they have their own meetings and roundups. Mike :) |
I really see the opposite of selfishness in the program.Seps 1-3 are pretty humbling Step 4 asks us all to looks at our own flaws..6and 7 have us look at what is not acceptable in ourselves..8+9 ask us to look at all those we have hurt and try to change and make amends..12 is all about giving back.Service is emphasized alot. As for all the Bill W. stuff, I've heard that too..the programs principles are sound to me and stand the terst of time..It is just a good way to live on my book...hand it over, try not to do more harm, take care of yourself, help others,meditate, become insightful, undo the wrongs you've done as best you can...I get alot from my program(alanon)..the fellowship is amazing and I can't wait for my meeting..always leave feeling awakened and fortified. |
I love the 12 steps - they're logical, they get me where I need to go and they balance focusing on myself with handing things over to a higher power. I think for me the higher power part helps to counter-balance the putting yourself first part. I'm -responsible- for myself. Every healthy adult should be -responsible- for themselves. But when I try to play God and force outcomes, I get into trouble. So if I focus on doing the right thing (self first) stay out of other people's business and hand the parts that I have no control over to a Higher Power, then I'm in good shape. Al-Anon is a self-first program, but it also specifies that the welfare of the group is paramount. AA and al-anon are based on the (sound) idea that you stand a much better chance of getting well if you're in the company of a group of like-minded people at different points on that journey. For me, that means that my recovery is inter-connected with the recovery of people in my home group. They rely on me and vice versa. And you know what? I find the Big Book horribly outdated, too. I have a hard time understanding why Lois stayed with Bill and I (personal opinion) think that she continued to live around his recovery much as she had lived her life around his disease. I wonder whether all this time later Lois would have stayed with Bill. Maybe she would have divorced him, gone to live in New Mexico, become an artist and started her own group when she got there :-) I find Paths to Recovery much, much easier to take than the Big Book - but my personal opinion is that the principles of the 12 steps are golden. I try to take what I need and leave the rest - but I do hear you in that a lot of the Big Book is so not of our time that it can be hard to take. Only my opinions - no offence meant to anyone who feels differently. SL. |
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