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Old 03-05-2011, 08:24 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MayaandMe View Post
What are you imagining the outcome of the intervention as being?
My hope is that he accepts treatment and gets medical care.

What do you imagine happening if there is no intervention?
My fear is that he will either A) Die B) Kill someone in a car accident and end up in jail or C) Get in a car accident and severly injure himself.

Both abused alcohol as a way of self medicating and the roots of the alcoholism were indeed psychological.
Alcohol abuse is different than alcohol addiction. Someone can abuse alcohol for psychological purposes. But alcohol addiction is a genetic disease. This has been proven by dozens of scientific studies. I do not wish to offend you or in any way discount your feelings, but the facts are there. You can read the studies for yourself as they are widely published in medical and scientific journals.

I hope that your friend listens and takes the offering of help. He or she is lucky to have someone who cares so much.
I appreciate your concern and your sincere regards. I hope it all works out. I will pray.
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:25 PM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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I did an intervention with my AW this past December, she went, then checked herself out 36 hours later and got drunk. Track record: 10 years, 5 detoxes, 5 rehabs -- still drinking.

The main purpose of these boards is for friends and family to find help for themselves. I am trying not to be obsessed with getting my AW to stop drinking. She is obsessed with alcohol, I am obsessed with her use of alcohol (including trying to figure out how to get her to quit). I tried 100 different things and intervention was one of them.

Turning addiction into a medical science problem might make for some interesting research, but I'm not expecting the silver bullet any time soon.
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:30 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
You mean.. you assume it would have.
An assumption is not based on facts and or research.

It is a deduction. I do not have the time to explain the difference to you.

You can waste time debating with me or you can read the material. But I am not going to waste my time, as I have already stated my point and stated that I do not wish to debate.

"Good Night and Good Luck"

Panther
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:11 PM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Panther, This is a forum where people share their experiences. We are here for support, not to exchange research papers, bad mouth one or another recovery path or insult other members. If you do not like what you read, you are welcome to ignore it, but please do not belittle and criticize our members. Thank you
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:43 PM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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On the subject of interventions.

I am removing my anonymity for this one, as it is relevant to the topic. I worked as a therapist in the field of addictions for many years before retiring. Mostly in the larger hospitals in California, with a number of small methadone clinics, ER's and occasional volunteer work. I am still licensed in the state of California, but I no longer practice.

I have done hundreds of interventions. Of all kinds. Here's the "Cliff Notes".

- What you see on television is _far_ from reality. Just ignore that.

- The purpose of an intervention is to "raise the bottom" for the addict in order to prevent the really nasty consequences such as death, insanity or life incarceration.

- For the purpose of this topic a "bottom" is a moment when the addict experiences "pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization" as a result of the damage they have done to their lives.

- In order to reach that bottom it is necessary to "pierce the veil" of denial.

- The veil is pierced by gathering all the enablers, raising _their_ bottoms ( yes, enablers have bottoms too ) and backing them all into a corner so they have no other choice but to go along with the intervention.

- Then you line up all the enablers, and construct a trap for the addict where the only way out is _thru_ a program of recovery.

That's it. Nowhere in the above is there any kind of guarantee of success. None. Ultimately, it's the last gasp of a loving family who has run out of options. Here's the caveats:

- It is incredibly difficult to get _all_ the enablers to cooperate. And when you do, it's even harder to keep them from backing out at the worst possible time.

- If you manage to get it all to work, you get only _once_ chance. If any of the enablers blows it the rest of them will _never_ go for it again.

- The more work it takes to get them all to agree the less likely it is to work out.

- It works out _much_ easier if you do it the other way around. Wait for the addict to end up in the ICU, or federal pen and when _they_ hit bottom get the addict to help you do interventions on all the enablers. That works like a charm.

A full explanation is a semester long course at the graduate level in any good college. I don't do that anymore but most any of the larger state or private psych schools will have them.

Mike
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:49 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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It seems to me there are all sorts of *facts* out there that contradict each other. Then there is our personal experience that should not be discounted since that is where this *factual* data comes from to begin with.

My AH entered outpatient therapy on his own. He learned a lot (I think)…I learned a lot (so much for believing I already knew *plenty*). Long and short, he is still an addict and he is in the deepest denial I have seen yet. There was a man in the outpatient therapy program for his third time (at a hefty price each time); maybe this time he will be sober for good? I still struggle with how far to watch someone you love destroy themselves and do nothing…especially because you can see how deep their denial or I believe sick thinking is. But, it appears there is a lot of evidence (this site for example) that shows that most people have done hundreds if not thousands of different things believing maybe their addict will now see the problem as it truly is and that maybe we are acting codependent (or just plain desperate). But the FACT is that the overwhelming personal experience shows addicts usually don’t see a problem until they are ready to see a problem, and this shouldn’t be lightly excused unless there is evidence to explain why intervention will work. What happens if the addict is not ready? Do they go deeper into their illness as it seems my husband did, or is there different therapy that would have helped him to respond better? My husband doesn’t want to lose his family (so he told me later is the reason he went to therapy) but he is going to lose his family.
It seems to me that it’s possible there is no one way that works for everyone much like some medicine works for some people and not for others.

I’m going to make this leap because I firmly believe all the evidence out there supports it: Even the latest evidence has yet to *prove* that it is truly as successful across the board as it claims to be. I don’t buy that some evidence is better than others unless it is overwhelming. I have yet to find ANY overwhelming evidence in any regard that can be applied to every individual when it comes to addiction. I wish it were that simple.
Since our bodies consist of physical, psychological, emotional and spiritual, where is the study that states how these areas are affected or if it varies per person? How do we reconcile the spiritual with those that don’t *believe* in it? It seems all of us on this board can attest to the physical affects alcohol has on the body. We can also attest to the psychological effects and emotional affects. And for those with belief in God, we can attest to the spiritual affects as well. This process (progression) is S...L…O…W for most all cases I’ve read…but not all cases.

In final, just because alcohol addiction is shown to have a genetic link, it does not mean that everyone with this link will be an addict. It is shown that environment plays a large factor in addiction risk. The best proof I believe I’ve discovered is that this is a complex topic with no easy answers. I think we will get furthest by acknowledging its complexity while maintaining an open mind and being respectful of all perspectives. I hope I’ve managed to do that.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:05 PM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Hey..interventions CAN work..if they always or even kindamostly worked we all wouldn't be here..we'd just hire an interventionist and be done with it.. and man would that be awesome...btw..I don't follow people thread to thread..been here a while and consider myself part of this community
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:51 PM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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(((Panther))) - you seem convinced that intervention is the way to go, for your friend, so go for it. It will work or it won't.

I can tell you it would NOT have worked for me, and my DOC (crack) is illegal, but VERY easy to obtain.

I, personally, don't believe in the statistics. Of the 100s' of A's and RA's that I know, no one has ever included us in statistics. I've been told the recovery rate for crack addicts is extremely low..well, I'm proving them wrong. I agree with ((Keep)) - if interventions were so great, everyone would do them and there would be no need for this forum.

I wish you would also realize that there are many people on this forum who have done everything that they possibly could, for their A's. There are loved ones here who have seen their A go through interventions, detox/rehab, jail/prison,time in ICU,time in recovery, then relapse, and several who have lost their A They are sharing their experience. IMO, it doesn't matter if you have a PhD in interventions...being an A, loving an A (or both, in my situation) doesn't have a cookie-cutter cure.

I agree with the medical method you mention, however, I also agree that the other methods help. Hell, I was a nurse, and that didn't do a darned bit of good. I needed to face the harsh consequences, figure out what it was about "me" that I was so uncomfortable with and trying to drown it out in drugs, and strongly work on my spirituality.

Do what you feel you need to do, but please realize that no one likes "my way" shoved down our throats, nor the belittling and sarcasm.

You'll do what you feel you need to do, as will the A in your life. If it works, fantastic! If it doesn't, well, I guess they'll be in the lower end of your statistics. Regardless, they'll have been given the tools of recovery that comes with rehab, and you'll know you did what you felt was right.

Hugs and prayers,

Amy
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:35 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Panther View Post
I do not have the time to explain the difference to you.
Wow. No explanation needed. Sorry I wasted your time.
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:55 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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By acknowledging that an intervention would have cut short my addiction, I see that interventions can do that for other people. Its simple logic.
It could have shortened your addiction, not would have.
and no, that is an assumption, not simple logic.

Beth
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Using every way that works to stay sober.
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:30 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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I have no experience with interventions. I will say that right now.

That said, I think that interventions will always have some impact - whether they are on the addict, or one of the enablers, or someone feels better that they "tried everything", or just a distant memory that eventually helps someone somewhere get better, I don't know. Maybe it helps keep a child from following the same route, or prevents some innocent stranger from being killed by a drunk driver, who knows? But I think that if someone wants to put the time, effort, and energy into one, it can have some sort of positive influence.

I think the main fault of interventions is when people expect a certain outcome, because the odds of obtaining that particular result in the particular expected timeframe can be disappointing.
I think if someone can approach it with the hope of anything at all, they may not get what they wanted, but they may get what they needed.

Not sure if that makes sense? Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:45 PM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Hi Panther,

I was not personally involved, but my now hubby, his daughter and two stepsons 'intervened' on his AS. "Jr." agreed to go to the hospital that day. He was diagnosed with jaundice, alcoholic hepatitis, and had lots of fluid build up in his abdominal cavity. The doctors gave him a 50/50 shot on making it through the first two and a 50/50 shot of making it through the DTs.

He survived, went to IOP therapy.....then turned to crack. He has threatened to kill 3 members of his family, has been in and out of jail for check fraud, is still homeless/couch surfing. His father and I will no longer give him money or a place to stay (Jr. is 29). Mr. HG and I have learned that sobriety is something the young man has to truly want for himself. He has learned the tools, and knows the resources. He just refuses to do anything to help himself because he still believes everyone else in the world owes him something and should clean up after him (sadly something his late mother and father did when he was young).

Perhaps the tools learned in IOP after the intervention will be useful for him someday. I wish you the best of luck as you plan this intervention for your friend.

All the best,
HG
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:06 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Addiction most likely is both physical and psychological.
One day, for whatever reason, the future addict stumbles upon a substance that has an affect on their thought process/comfort level/mood/physical abilities......

They repeat this experience until they cross the point where the body needs it to function even normally, not to mind get extra affect.

They cause distress and harm to themselves and/or others by using this substance.
They sometimes mix or change substances based on affect or availability.

They now, for whatever reason are going to try and stop altering their mind/body with substances. They must deal with the physical withdrawal and then the psychological affects of reality. Either old hurts and issues, or simply the guilt of the harm done since the addiction started to do damage. This is difficult stuff. Add to that, the feeling of berserk brain chemistry AND the physical exhaustion of withdrawal and one has quite the task ahead.

I would think that like modern medicine, you could fling everything at it and hope something sticks. A lot of fantastic medical breakthroughs came about due to accidental/incidental discoveries. Why does one person survive an accident that kills someone else? Why does one person recover from cancer when another doesn't with similar treatment?

As human beings, we are unique. So, there are infinite variables. To discount anything in the toolbox is unwise.

One thing with addiction, I really have a problem with. When it comes to statistics, how in the name of God can anyone keep any sort of accurate reliable data on addicts? How do you trust statistics on an anonymous, informal, disparate group of ever-changing subjects?

I just wish the very best for all the addicts and their families and friends. It is a hard slog and it is a true test of all affected.8
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:18 PM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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I can see you are passionate about helping your friend and have done your homework and research. That is all good. With that and adding the best rehab facility in existence, it is all up to the individual. All of this means nothing if the individual isn't ready to get sober. I had a friend who called me fresh out of rehab. She was out a few hours and was discussing how it offered good tools as she was washing down her Valium with a 6 pack of beer. Tools are meaningless if you don't put them to good use.

I wish you the best with your friend. I hope she is ready to embrace the opportunity of living life sober and healthy.
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:25 PM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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A good book on addiction Under the Influence by Dr. Milam. A good book on intervention Love First by Jeff Jay. They also have a website with more info. LoveFirst.net
One thing I failed to mention in my previous post is that the intervention we did with our son 4-1/2 years ago was orchestrated by the rehab he went to. The rehab he attended was co-founded by Dr. James Milam. I am very familiar with this research.

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Old 03-06-2011, 02:46 PM
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I took my RAD to a very expensive rapid detox three days after I learned of her addiction. She spent the week at a beautiful retreat while being evaluated with all the best science money could buy. She was chemically balanced again and we both went home with a follow up treatment plan. It was mostly science based, but the clinic therapist also strongly recommended a traditional 12 step in patient rehab because of her lack of emotional maturity. She was 19 years old.

They don't do inpatient or IOP rehab. Most of their patients are older, been down that road several times, and are wealthy enough to afford the detox, personally stylized short term treatment. They usually already have all the tools they need to maintain recovery, they want recovery, but they're taking a shortcut around the months or years of chemical adjustment in their brains. This clinic won't take someone twice.

RAD was clean for six months but neither of us followed up on the recommendations, she relapsed and I started pulling my hair out. There was a traditional detox followed by IOP. Then suboxone, followed by a 28 day inpatient rehab. Then relapse and suboxone again and, after omitting a million details of life and death during those years, she's been sober for over a year now and working the medical, behavioral and spiritual recovery that was recommended in the first place.

Everything I did to stop her using was an intervention.

She is the one who made recovery happen and it didn't happen a moment before she was ready.

I sure as hell tried but couldn't get a textbook intervention going, because I couldn't make all the other enablers/addicts get on the same page and I wasn't ready to stop enabling, either. I had a much easier time getting her detoxed.

Panther, if you want suggestions for science based detox and recovery programs, try calling the clinics of the specialists you've named. It will be very expensive and short term, so hopefully your friend will be highly motivated.

And I have a question for you -- do you feel resentment or frustration that your parents didn't intervene?
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:49 PM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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The book Under the Influence by Dr. James Milam is excellent. However, it was written in 1981--30 years ago--so the medical model of alcoholism/addiction is not new. I would venture to say that most of the people I have had the priviledge to get to know here on SR fully understand that alcoholism/addiction is a disease.

So then what is the problem? You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. Intervention is a method of getting a person into treatment and even if they relapse, I do believe that the exposure they get in a good treatment facility is worthwhile. But sometimes....while you're leading that horse to water, he kicks you in the teeth and runs off. Intervention is one way to approach things but certainly not the only way and there are no guarantees in life....particularly where alcoholism/addiction is concerned.

I will always have hope that my son, whom I love very much, will decide to embrace recovery.

more gentle hugs
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:09 PM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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One point I have....'Medical models' and 'Psychological models' are NOT mutually exclusive. Both work TOGETHER.

This board is made up of people with very personal stories about the illness, that is what you will get... and there is a huge value to hearing those experiences.

If you want more clinical data, try a search in PubMed.

PubMed home

Anyone who searches long enough will find the answer to validate their point of view but that doesn't mean it will be the outcome or is even true.

Best of luck!
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Old 03-07-2011, 12:15 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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One thing that is good, my thread has started a discussion. Which I think is a step in the right direction. I am very busy as I work two jobs, but I will be posting excerpts from the book Love First: A Family's Guide to an Intervention in the coming days.

I know there are those of you who are interested in other options despite the nay sayers. I encourage you to explore these options and do not limit yourself. If you go into a situation with a close mind you won't be able to see the solutions that come to you.

I am sorry if I came across as impatient. I am a teacher and I save all my patience for my students, as they require it. With my busy schedule, I only have time to work, plan the intervention and my family. If I have time left over I relax and work on my other goals. I apologize but I do not have time to debate.

Best of Wishes

Panther
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Old 03-07-2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Panther View Post
One thing that is good, my thread has started a discussion. Which I think is a step in the right direction. I am very busy as I work two jobs, but I will be posting excerpts from the book Love First: A Family's Guide to an Intervention in the coming days.

I know there are those of you who are interested in other options despite the nay sayers. I encourage you to explore these options and do not limit yourself. If you go into a situation with a close mind you won't be able to see the solutions that come to you.

I am sorry if I came across as impatient. I am a teacher and I save all my patience for my students, as they require it. With my busy schedule, I only have time to work, plan the intervention and my family. If I have time left over I relax and work on my other goals. I apologize but I do not have time to debate.Best of Wishes

Panther
Speaking only for myself Panther, I have a few questions about your post.

A step in the right direction for who? For you, to gain information and insight from the people on this board? I am not sure why posting excerpts from a book is helpful to you? You do not appear to welcome feedback or someone with another opinion than yours, and you also seems more than a little condescending to the people who have offered their experience strength and hope.

If you are here to show us a better way, to "teach" us how an intervention worked for you, then maybe you should show us the respect and patience you show your students.

You want to lecture, then no discussion.
People here have had many experiences with many types of interventions.
I am one of them. I have not had a drink in over 14 years.
I have two addicted children, and for you to come to this forum and accuse people of not having an open mind to different approaches, then you have not read enough here.

I would have painted myself purple and done the mambo on main street if I thought it would stop my children from using. Anything, I was open to anything and everything.

Maybe I am reading you wrong, maybe you are just another terrified family member trying to make sense out of an insane life. It changes a person.
Here, on this forum, we want to help you. Help you live a better life.
No addict will recover until they are ready.

Have your intervention, and then please come back and tell us how it worked for you.
Success stories are wonderful and motivating.

Beth
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