Is it normal?
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Originally Posted by LexieCat 
I've noticed that you often swing back and forth between saying how selfish and awful he is to you, and then how helpless and unable to care for himself he is. You want him OUT when he is being selfish and horrible, but you weaken when you think of him as helpless.
They are both sorta correct, in a way, but they are just facets of his behavior and personality that are screwed up by his alcoholism. Both would be drastically improved by recovery. Alcoholics are complicated people.
You don't have to wait until you are angry to put him out. In fact, I think it might be better if you do it when you AREN'T angry. If you do it when you are calm, and do it with love (even if he is raging at you), neither of you will have to feel that you put him out because you can't stand him.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but do you get what I'm saying? If you made a plan for him to get out and insisted upon it, no matter what he says or does, and you don't lose it, yourself, no matter what he says or does, you might actually be able to follow through with it.
Because it wouldn't be done out of anger.
Does that make any sense?
They are both sorta correct, in a way, but they are just facets of his behavior and personality that are screwed up by his alcoholism. Both would be drastically improved by recovery. Alcoholics are complicated people.
You don't have to wait until you are angry to put him out. In fact, I think it might be better if you do it when you AREN'T angry. If you do it when you are calm, and do it with love (even if he is raging at you), neither of you will have to feel that you put him out because you can't stand him.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but do you get what I'm saying? If you made a plan for him to get out and insisted upon it, no matter what he says or does, and you don't lose it, yourself, no matter what he says or does, you might actually be able to follow through with it.
Because it wouldn't be done out of anger.
Does that make any sense?
Yes, I see that you make sense, always.
but I am not really swinging back and forth here, I see him as all those things at the same time.
But I am trying to believe that he is able to change. I am trying to see things in a different way, other than what my heart fears. So that I don't grow weak, and feel that I have to let him stay.
i was telling my daughter yesterday, that as hard as it will be to put him out on the street, it will be worse to let him stay, to continue on the way he is , not being forced to make changes, or not dealing with his alcoholism.
Which I figure is going to be a long road, but he cant get there from my house. It scares me to wonder if he will ever get recovery, and what it is going to take for him to want it.
I am not going to make him go in anger. I am angry at him, yes, for mean things he says. really mean things. it makes me want to put him right out the door, but of course I love him and wont do that. I told him that he has the end of the month, and that it is because I cannot help him. That he has not done anything to really help his self. And that it is not my job to fix his life.
Last night, I told him that he could get help to get his life straightened out, but that first he might call some services and tell them that he self medicates with alcohol, and that they would offer help if he wants it. maybe he will remember that, when he is down enough, or miserable enough. He said, this is not about alcohol, but I said, that it is about alcohol.
he has no friends to go to. no one. i will literally be putting him into the street, with no car, no money, no way to get anywhere, but on foot. if he will agree, i will drop him at the shelter, but i have no idea if there is a bed or not. this is the hardest thing i will ever do. but maybe fending for his self will feel better than staying here, being depressed.
i am just so tired of this worry.
thanks for your post,
chicory
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Originally Posted by Lilly1
Chicory, I'm the mother of an AS also...he moved home with me, dad and siblings in an attempt to sober up and get it together after a drunk driving. I was in denial the whole time he was here. I didn't think MY son was an A...he was just drinking because he was depressed!
Well after 3 months of him closet drinking, passing out naked where ever he may land, throwing up and leaving it for someone else to clean up, lying, and just a lack of any respect for us or my house, I told him to leave. Now bear in mind, I didn't kick him to the streets, I kicked him back to his own apartment that he still had with his roomie. The mom in me doesn't know if she could have kicked him to the streets. This is where SR keeps me grounded. He's not ever allowed to come back here to live (drunk OR sober) because I know my limits and I know what I need to keep me and my family healthy.
You ARE worth it. Being Mom doesn't make us responsible to enable and support bad habits along with the good.
I did damage to our relationship by asking him to leave. He's in full-fledged hate mode right now, but only because I denied him the enabling. I hope someday, when he's healthy again, he'll know I did this because I love him, that protecting him from himself isn't the answer for either of us. I did my job by him and he's now a 28 yo man very able to make his own decisions.
Well after 3 months of him closet drinking, passing out naked where ever he may land, throwing up and leaving it for someone else to clean up, lying, and just a lack of any respect for us or my house, I told him to leave. Now bear in mind, I didn't kick him to the streets, I kicked him back to his own apartment that he still had with his roomie. The mom in me doesn't know if she could have kicked him to the streets. This is where SR keeps me grounded. He's not ever allowed to come back here to live (drunk OR sober) because I know my limits and I know what I need to keep me and my family healthy.
You ARE worth it. Being Mom doesn't make us responsible to enable and support bad habits along with the good.
I did damage to our relationship by asking him to leave. He's in full-fledged hate mode right now, but only because I denied him the enabling. I hope someday, when he's healthy again, he'll know I did this because I love him, that protecting him from himself isn't the answer for either of us. I did my job by him and he's now a 28 yo man very able to make his own decisions.
He wont hate you forever. He knows that what you did was right. I hope that he has gotten help. and that he is making better choices.
you are so right, that we are not responsible for them, just cause we are their moms. but it sure puts us in a crappy place, doesn't it?
Thank you,hugs
chicory
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Hugs,
I think I was just musing out loud up there. I see you getting stronger, and more grounded in your thinking. You are making great internal progress.
Consider your own situation--as painful as this is for you, are you not growing as a result?
The pain he will experience once he is out on his own can make HIM stronger, too. Nobody enjoys painful experiences, but they can be great for personal growth.
LOL, my mom used to tell me all the time, "It builds character." I used to want to strangle her when she said it, but it's true. I've become so much stronger and more capable as a result of some of the mistakes I've made, and bad stuff that has happened in my life. If I had been sheltered from it all, I would not be the person I am today (someone I'm starting to like again).
I think I was just musing out loud up there. I see you getting stronger, and more grounded in your thinking. You are making great internal progress.
Consider your own situation--as painful as this is for you, are you not growing as a result?
The pain he will experience once he is out on his own can make HIM stronger, too. Nobody enjoys painful experiences, but they can be great for personal growth.
LOL, my mom used to tell me all the time, "It builds character." I used to want to strangle her when she said it, but it's true. I've become so much stronger and more capable as a result of some of the mistakes I've made, and bad stuff that has happened in my life. If I had been sheltered from it all, I would not be the person I am today (someone I'm starting to like again).
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he has no friends to go to. no one. i will literally be putting him into the street, with no car, no money, no way to get anywhere, but on foot. if he will agree, i will drop him at the shelter, but i have no idea if there is a bed or not.
Please try not to look at it like YOU are doing anything to him. He has until the end of the month to find work and start making some money. Didn't he get a job just a little while back but quit so he could stay home and drink? He IS capable of getting work, so he IS capable of making some changes. He just won't be able to call off work to sit at home and drink because if he does, he won't have a home. Please allow yourself to see that he CAN do things, it's just been too easy for him not to. I hope you understand I'm pointing out these things, not to be harsh with you, but to remind you that he IS capable, if he has to be.
Please try not to look at it like YOU are doing anything to him. He has until the end of the month to find work and start making some money. Didn't he get a job just a little while back but quit so he could stay home and drink? He IS capable of getting work, so he IS capable of making some changes. He just won't be able to call off work to sit at home and drink because if he does, he won't have a home. Please allow yourself to see that he CAN do things, it's just been too easy for him not to. I hope you understand I'm pointing out these things, not to be harsh with you, but to remind you that he IS capable, if he has to be.
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Originally Posted by chicory
Lilly!,
He wont hate you forever. He knows that what you did was right. I hope that he has gotten help. and that he is making better choices.
you are so right, that we are not responsible for them, just cause we are their moms. but it sure puts us in a crappy place, doesn't it?
Thank you,hugs
chicory
He wont hate you forever. He knows that what you did was right. I hope that he has gotten help. and that he is making better choices.
you are so right, that we are not responsible for them, just cause we are their moms. but it sure puts us in a crappy place, doesn't it?
Thank you,hugs
chicory
I wish I could hold your hand thru this! I would ask that you focus on YOU when his time to leave comes. Don't focus on what you're "doing to him"-which is really immaterial because it's what he's done to HIMSELF. Think about your own peace and well-being after the fact. I can't tell you how much more normal my house became once my AS was gone. Those 3 1/2 months felt like a year.
While the worry for him is still there, our house is our haven once again and when I'm ready to quite the worrying for the day, my peace is ready for me. It is SUCH a crappy place. I never in a million years would wish this on anybody.
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Just checking in and keeping up.
Good stuff here.
When Lexie wrote:
It sounded to me more like
one is REACTION.
the other is ACTION.
*shrug*
that's how it went in my hard head anyhow.
I agree with having a plan and sticking with it.
I'm glad to see you're getting so much
encouragement and support too!
Good stuff here.
When Lexie wrote:
You don't have to wait until you are angry to put him out. In fact, I think it might be better if you do it when you AREN'T angry. If you do it when you are calm, and do it with love (even if he is raging at you), neither of you will have to feel that you put him out because you can't stand him.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but do you get what I'm saying? If you made a plan for him to get out and insisted upon it, no matter what he says or does, and you don't lose it, yourself, no matter what he says or does, you might actually be able to follow through with it.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but do you get what I'm saying? If you made a plan for him to get out and insisted upon it, no matter what he says or does, and you don't lose it, yourself, no matter what he says or does, you might actually be able to follow through with it.
one is REACTION.
the other is ACTION.
*shrug*
that's how it went in my hard head anyhow.
I agree with having a plan and sticking with it.
I'm glad to see you're getting so much
encouragement and support too!
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Originally Posted by barb dwyer
one is REACTION.
the other is ACTION.
the other is ACTION.
It's taking a positive action for the well-being of both people, rather than one person angrily reacting to what the other has done.
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Originally Posted by keepinon
A gentle qustion Chicory..are you really going to remove him on the 31?You have said this before and changed your mind last minute..What is different this time?
I dont want to sound ungrateful, but I cannot promise anything. I am going to do my best. I hope that I am strong enough then.
When I say this, that he has to go, at the end of the month, I am not just making it up. If I was not serious, I would not be on here, at risk of looking like a fool, if I back slide. I am here for the help. Time is running out for him and for me.
What can I say? This hurts, very much. Do you think I am not thinking about this , and how it is going to happen, and feel?
This is my son, for whom I would die. But, I want him to live, to quit drinking his anxiety away, to become self sufficient. that cannot happen here, so what choice do I have?
This is going to be the hardest thing I will have even done yet. I dread it. I know that when he leaves, I will hit the floor face first and cry like I have never done. It is against my very being, to withdraw a roof and bed from someone who has nothing. but, I have no choice, if I want him to have a life. this is no life for him. it is sad, and horrible.
i feel like my heart is between two rocks, and being crushed.
I have to keep telling myself that this will be ok. that he will begin to rely on his self, and that will give him dignity,and he will be proud of his self. he cant right now, and that is sad. he is ashamed of what he is and what he does not have.
I know that the drinking wont stop here, no matter what he promises.
he is right now, making comments , to guilt me. I am ignoring them as best I can. He walked by and said, "You know, I can't feel love for someone who would do this to me". I was just silent. I hate this.
I told him this morning that I am making him go, because I love him, and want him to become independent, and that his alcohol use has made this necessary. that his choice to drink when he has money, is not ok with me, in my home. that he has been taking advantage and not doing what he is capable of.
he says that he is so close now, to getting a job, that he has four jobs that look hopeful. that they are telling him to be patient, and that something is going to open up soon. But, I know that he will drink again, when he gets that paycheck. and I cant let that happen here. I wont watch him kill his self, and enable him to do it. and heck, I think that he only got serious this last week, after I told him that he has to go. and I dont even really believe that these jobs are opening, and even if the did, it is still not reason to have him here. he will drink- period.
He is going around picking up cig butts, and smoking the tobacco in a pipe. sometimes he smokes the ashes again. if he is out of tobacco. he is coughing a nasty cough, and i hate it, but i am ignoring it, and I figure if he is dumb enough to hurt his lungs that way, I am just gonna butt out of that. He has anxiety, and it is hard to quit smoking, Iknow, i used to do it. but, i believe that I would quit, before i smoke some nasty ash over and screw up my lungs. And I refuse to buy his smokes anymore. told him that a few weeks ago. it was just making it easier for him not to need a job. computer, coffee, and cigs. dont want him to get cancer either. dont want to hand him the smokes that give him cancer. if it did not cause cancer, I'd be smoking right now!
this has to end. my life matters too, and he is probably able to make it, somehow. he has a better chance now, as no one else is going to take him in. so, he is gonna have to learn, and work it out. it is only fair that he be responsible for his self. I want my life back.
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I was honestly just wondering what is different this time..I truly hope it is for both your sakes..you do not owe me any promises..this is just very reminisnt(sp!) of the last time..just wondering if you have more support in place, a plan, your teflon jammies, etc, as if history repeats, he will be pulling out the big guns soon..remember he promised to get counseling and treatment and avoided the ousting that way...I think this is a valid question,not trying to harrass you, I really, really hope whatever is best for both of you happens..:ghug3
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Originally Posted by keepinon
I was honestly just wondering what is different this time..I truly hope it is for both your sakes..you do not owe me any promises..this is just very reminisnt(sp!) of the last time..just wondering if you have more support in place, a plan, your teflon jammies, etc, as if history repeats, he will be pulling out the big guns soon..remember he promised to get counseling and treatment and avoided the ousting that way...I think this is a valid question,not trying to harrass you, I really, really hope whatever is best for both of you happens..:ghug3
I understand. You are right, it is like the last time. How different could it be anyway? What could be different right now? I am open to suggestions. I dont give money, cigs, anymore advice, nothing. i just love him, and tell him so. I dont know why some think that I got angry thus am putting him out. I am just trying again, to do what I tried to do , 5 months ago.
I am not angry at my son. I get mad, but I know he is ill, and I love him. I wish I could stay angry, it would be easier. I hurt for him. I am afraid for him, if he does not get out of here, to find his bottom. nothing much is different i guess, except i have gotten a lot of insight from SR.
I have only the support here. I do not even know how I will make him leave, unless I get some stranger, or an acquaintance to help. I cannot ask family. for they dont want to be involved. I feel very much alone here.
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Originally Posted by keepinon
I know your alanon mtg is far away, but face to face support is invaluable..have you considered counseling for you...?
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Originally Posted by chicory
This is going to be the hardest thing I will have even done yet. I dread it. I know that when he leaves, I will hit the floor face first and cry like I have never done. It is against my very being, to withdraw a roof and bed from someone who has nothing. but, I have no choice, if I want him to have a life. this is no life for him. it is sad, and horrible.
i feel like my heart is between two rocks, and being crushed.
i feel like my heart is between two rocks, and being crushed.
I know if I go into a situation KNOWING it is going to be horrible, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Imagine yourself as being strong, capable, taking care of both of you because he cannot see (yet) what needs to be done. Visualize THAT, instead of your helplessly collapsing on the floor in a flood of tears.
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Originally Posted by LexieCat
Why are you already visualizing how much you will suffer?
I know if I go into a situation KNOWING it is going to be horrible, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Imagine yourself as being strong, capable, taking care of both of you because he cannot see (yet) what needs to be done. Visualize THAT, instead of your helplessly collapsing on the floor in a flood of tears.
I know if I go into a situation KNOWING it is going to be horrible, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Imagine yourself as being strong, capable, taking care of both of you because he cannot see (yet) what needs to be done. Visualize THAT, instead of your helplessly collapsing on the floor in a flood of tears.
if it hurts a lot, that is normal. I try to give equal time to focus on the joy that everyone who loves him will feel , and i keep thinking of how it will maybe make him feel about his self.
just cause I fall in a heap does not make me weak. Crying does not mean you are not strong and capable. Personally, if I were to put him out, without crying, I would wonder about myself. Our hearts bleed for our kids, when they hurt. but I am strong. I have gone through a lot in my life, and still find life good. having a homeless son will break my heart. To me, that IS normal.
I will definitely be holding on to the thought that this is for him and me, and that he does not see it yet, but that good may come from it, when no good will come from things staying as they are.
I get that you are saying not to focus on how painful it will be.
thank you lexie, hug
chicory
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Originally Posted by chicory
I am sorry if i seem to be whining. i promise that is not what i am doing. i am truly near a bottom myself and i guess i should not post about this until something changes. i am pi$$ed to be in this situation. I do not deserve it. But I set myself up for it, by trying to help him, and wanting him to have a warm home instead of being hungry on the street, a chance to get on his feet.Too bad he did not appreciate it.
Thinking of you and please keep sharing... those who will judge or tire of listening will do it- nothing you or I can do about it. Focus on the rest!
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No, I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't cry. I absolutely agree that crying is not weakness, it is an emotional release. It's healthy to express emotions. Fear and sadness are real.
I just don't like to see you awfulizing your pain. I believe you can do this.
I just don't like to see you awfulizing your pain. I believe you can do this.
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Detach with love-how to do that, is the question.
S is so negative and depressed, and when I even speak, he will take the opportunity to try to push my guilt buttons.
I don't wish to spend this time not speaking to each other. I can't even say "Hi", without him adding "how do you think I am doing, with being homeless coming soon?" or something manipulative like that.
Or the recently popular phrase- "Just when things are looking up for me, with four job possibilities. No use now, I wont even be able to get one paycheck before I have no where to go".Even I have to laugh at this one!
guess he can't count, in that there are about three weeks left in the month. Or when he calls me at work, to ask where he can sell his car, since he can't get it going and insurance, etc, before he has to leave. That he could use the pocket money when he has to hit the road.
Tell me that a grown man cannot figure out how to call a junk yard and ask if they want to buy the car? Why would you ask your mom, when your dad, or anyone else could answer that? more manipulations. guilt button is his favorite .
This really hurts, to do, and he knows that. But, would not the sane person be out busting their a@@ to try to do something that might prove they are trying? Or is it the better choice to just lay back, depressed , sleep all day. he makes more effort in going out to pick up cigarette butts, after midnight.
I just don't know how to talk to him right now, and I hate to have silence between us, up to the time he has to go. he is angry, and how do you maintain detachment with love, in face of someones angry manipulations?
I remind myself of how he has been so nasty, a lot of the time. But, I dont want to exude resentment.
I am feeling such a depression coming on, and I am on meds already for that.
It does not help to hear of someones son found dead the day after they put him out, due to his addictions.
I is so weird when your A does not drink, due to no funds, for a long time, and it almost seems that they dont have a problem if they are not selling off your things for booze. but when you know from experience that when they do get some money, they will be drinking it up, instead of saving it to get on their feet, or using it responsibly. I love the excuse "It wasn;t enough money to make a difference in my situation- why shouldn't i have some relaxation with friends (on computer)?
There must be quite a lot of folks online who post till they pass out-
just venting, and trying to get out of this funk.
thanks for listening ,
hugs
chicory
S is so negative and depressed, and when I even speak, he will take the opportunity to try to push my guilt buttons.
I don't wish to spend this time not speaking to each other. I can't even say "Hi", without him adding "how do you think I am doing, with being homeless coming soon?" or something manipulative like that.
Or the recently popular phrase- "Just when things are looking up for me, with four job possibilities. No use now, I wont even be able to get one paycheck before I have no where to go".Even I have to laugh at this one!
guess he can't count, in that there are about three weeks left in the month. Or when he calls me at work, to ask where he can sell his car, since he can't get it going and insurance, etc, before he has to leave. That he could use the pocket money when he has to hit the road.
Tell me that a grown man cannot figure out how to call a junk yard and ask if they want to buy the car? Why would you ask your mom, when your dad, or anyone else could answer that? more manipulations. guilt button is his favorite .
This really hurts, to do, and he knows that. But, would not the sane person be out busting their a@@ to try to do something that might prove they are trying? Or is it the better choice to just lay back, depressed , sleep all day. he makes more effort in going out to pick up cigarette butts, after midnight.
I just don't know how to talk to him right now, and I hate to have silence between us, up to the time he has to go. he is angry, and how do you maintain detachment with love, in face of someones angry manipulations?
I remind myself of how he has been so nasty, a lot of the time. But, I dont want to exude resentment.
I am feeling such a depression coming on, and I am on meds already for that.
It does not help to hear of someones son found dead the day after they put him out, due to his addictions.
I is so weird when your A does not drink, due to no funds, for a long time, and it almost seems that they dont have a problem if they are not selling off your things for booze. but when you know from experience that when they do get some money, they will be drinking it up, instead of saving it to get on their feet, or using it responsibly. I love the excuse "It wasn;t enough money to make a difference in my situation- why shouldn't i have some relaxation with friends (on computer)?
There must be quite a lot of folks online who post till they pass out-
just venting, and trying to get out of this funk.
thanks for listening ,
hugs
chicory
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The right thing is rarely easy.
If it were, the addicts would do the "right thing" and get better, too!
I wish the best for both you, and your son.
He cannot get the help he needs if you are constantly saving him - but I understand it is oh so hard to step away.
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Originally Posted by chicory
Tell me that a grown man cannot figure out how to call a junk yard and ask if they want to buy the car? Why would you ask your mom, when your dad, or anyone else could answer that? more manipulations. guilt button is his favorite.
1st call:
AS: "Mom, can you bring me some water?"
Me: "Uh, no. You can get water anywhere. Drink from a hose in the back of the gas station if you have to."
2nd call:
AS: "Mom, can you bring me some water? It's really hot."
Me: "No! You're on your own now! Remember? You can figure out how to get water."
3rd call:
AS: "Mom, can you bring me some lunch?"
Me: "No."
4th call:
AS: "Mom, I cut my hand real bad on a fence nail. I think I might need stitches."
Me: "Oh, that's too bad! That must really hurt! You probably need to go to the ER and get some stitches. They won't charge you anything if you have no money."
AS: "I went to the drug store and got some Neosporin and bandages...cost me $7.00!!"
Me: "Damn the luck. Well, you may need some Advil, too. That's gonna hurt later."
AS: "Can you bring me some?"
Me: "No."
5th call:
AS: "I found an old matress and a stairwell to sleep in."
Me: "Ok. Well, good luck."
6th call:
AS: "Mom, can you bring me some water?"....
this went on and on all day long. I always took his calls but just kept saying, "You'll figure it out. You'll be ok."
Then he tried the "radio silent" mode for about 3 days...then started quacking again. 8 days he was homeless...sleeping on couches and who knows where...getting money from his friends for food, etc., before he surrendered. He went to rehab after that.
Of course, that's not the end of the story, it was only the beginning....of his becoming a man responsible for his own life and choices.
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