mamaplus2kids

My AXH is pushing boundaries again and asking to have one of our children overnight, even though the court order does not allow it. He is using his charm to lower my guard and to make me look like the inflexible one.

I plan to travel from Europe (where we live) with our two children to visit my mother in New England, USA, for five days before we head down to Florida. As she lives in the same town as my ex and his family, I am trying to plan visitation for them. This is not always easy. Just today, I received the following message:

"...before you guys head to Florida lets see about a day for me with the kids. I really dream of having our son for a 'man's' overnight.. would be fun for us both don't you think?"

According to the court order, he has the right to unaccompanied visitation right as follows:

"He has the right to visit the children each second weekend on Saturday or Sunday for half a day. The delivery of the children is to take place via a neutral person determined by the mother.

As soon as these visits have proven to be well-practiced and positive, and provided that the father has a suitable dwelling, he has the right to have the children visit him each second week for Saturday and Sunday from 09.00 (9am) to 18.00 (6pm). The children have to return on Saturday evening to spend the night with their mother.

As soon as this weekend visitation proves to have become well-practiced and as positive, overnights by the father can take place.

As soon as overnights have proven to have become well-practiced and as positive, he has the right to have the children for four weeks holidays.

The mother bears the cost of the officially determined person, who is present during the deliveries."

How should I answer him? I am afraid he's going to make my five days there hell.

Thumper

It is my experience that keeping the correspondence very very simple and basic and not addressing anything meant to weasle, flame, or charm you works the best. I would not address the 'man's overnight' at all. Respond with what can be arranged based on the court order and your comfort level. Ignore the inevitable tantrum/outburst. Expecting and then ignoring that was key for me. It took some practice to really ignore it so I faked it until I could do it honestly.

Taking5

If you have been in Europe then I take it you have not been obeying this court order? I mean they have not been visiting have they?

I see red flags everywhere. He may have legal action all lined up against you for not allowing visitation, saying you fled to Europe to avoid the court order, etc. I may be paranoid but......

kiki5711

I was curious about the same thing. If you live in Europe with the kids, how is he suppose to see them every other weekend? How did you get permission to move them out of state, actually out of the country? Is this not a violation of the court order?

Thumper

He left them, not the other way around. She had good reason to seek the court order of limited visitation.

Mama - focus. My emotions (or desire to please etc.) can cloud things and then I remind myself to focus on facts. Focus on what you know, what you have control over, and stay out of the fray with the rest of it.

The court order provides safety measures for your children. Use those measures while standing tall and strong. You don't have to answer all his phone calls, you don't have to give in to his requests, you do not have to respond to anything but the very most basic logistics of this visit. When I am in a bit of a turmoil like this I find that communication is the most productive and least charged if I can use as few words as possible.

kiki5711

That was not stated in the original post so I didn't know the whole situation. It also states that "her" mother lives in USA so we really don't know who moved where first.

kilt

Don't deviate from the court order. In conversations with your ex, I would focus on the things he can do with children. As others have written, the court order is there to protect you and the child.

Eddiebuckle

Good advice for several reasons. First, it gives you all the reason you need to deny his fantasy of a "mans night." Second, I'm not a lawyer, but it may be possible for your violating the order to be used against you. Thirdly (maybe a remote possibility, but most importantly) in the interests of your sons safety.

If your ex pitches a fit, simply say it's on the advice of your attorney.

tallulah

Stick to what the court has ordered. If he wants to vary the order.. let him apply to the court.

Tx

Taking5

Regardless, it does not appear she has been holding her end of the court order up, unless she is flying the kids from Europe every other weekend for visitation (highly unlikely). I'm sticking with my original reaction, this could be very ugly.

mamaplus2kids

Thank you Thumper! Yes, my AXH is the one who left. The 'every other week visits' are only valid in Switzerland or if we find ourselves in his US state (RI). I am under no obligation to travel to RI to facilitate these visits. I just do it because I want my children to see who their father is as well as our respective dysfunctional families with their own eyes.

I don't talk badly about him... so I think it is important that the children formulate their own opinions about him. My goal is to provide them contact with their father and at the same time protect them. Thankfully, I have a court order that helps me do this. But, it is not easy. For the past five years since our separation, I have not wavered. It is just very tiring and stressful.

When he's in Switzerland, our home country, the "delivery of the children is to take place via an 'officially ordered person'. He can exercise this right, if he and the children are in Rhode Island, in which case, a neutral person determined by the mother is to take over the role of the officially ordered person. The mother has to give the father three weeks advance notice of the children coming to Rhode Island. The father has to give the mother three weeks advance notice of his coming to Switzerland."

Until now, I have been keeping to the court order quite strictly. Last summer when we were in the USA, I had a hart time finding a neutral person who was willing to do the deliveries. They were afraid of the potential liability. So, I did the handovers. I even asked the local child and family services, but without a breathalyzer test they didn't feel adequately protected from liability.

He's angry now, because he has lost in the courts on the financial part of the divorce. The courts have denied him my inherited assets and any further alimony. He was trying to prove that he was too sick to work and that he suffered from four various mental health illnesses: depression, narcissistic personality disorder, bipolar depression, and abuse of alcohol. The courts ,just last month, decided that he did not sufficiently prove that he is too sick to work and that he is capable of earning his own income and of making small payments to his children.

So I should be grateful that I have the courts on my side. It's not perfect but it's more than many other healthy protective parents have. Now, I have to be strong and smart.

Thank you everyone for your advice to keep it short and to the point. When emails come in from him, I get so stressed and angry sometimes!

mamaplus2kids

How's this response?

"We will be in Rhode Island from April 20th to 24th (arriving the 19th and leaving the 25th). The court order states that visitation is to take place on two half days on Sat and Sun, which are April 23rd and April 24th. Is this convenient for you?"

Thumper

Sounds good. You could even shorten it further and say "We will be in RI on April 23rd and 24th. The court order states that visitation is to take place on two half days. Is this convenient for you?"

I understand about the emails.

Taking5

I like Thumper's response. No need to give away your entire travel plans. If those dates don't work for him, you have no further requirements to be met by the courts.

mamaplus2kids

I took Thumper's advice and shortened the above message. "We will be in RI on April 23rd and 24th. The court order states that visitation is to take place on two half days. Is this convenient for you."

Okay... here's his answer:

"I am asking you to agree with me in allowing our son to spend one overnight with his Father regardless of the court order. We are absolutely within our rights to make an agreement between ourselves on this. If you feel uncomfortable allowing this it makes me very sad as I think we both know that there is really no valid reason not to. Please reconsider my proposal. A half day, after not seeing them for so long seems wrong to me as it should you."

-Don't you love how he manages to change two half days into one?
-No valid reason??? He's out of his mind.
-He's trying to get me into a discussion.
-Do I leave his twisting of my words, or do I quickly correct? (of course, I would love to say "there you go twisting my words again" but I guess I shouldn't. ;-)

JenT1968

if you are going to reply resend the original email only or shorten to "are the 23rd and 24th convenient?". This isn't inflexible, it is just what is.

You are doing well, try not to give in to that need to please or seem "reasonable" it has bitten me in the arse on every single occaission when I have tried to accomodate slightly exAH's wishes, and he tries all manner of manipulation to get me to over-ride my better judgement.

Thumper

I would clip his words to this...I am asking you to agree with me in allowing our son to spend one overnight with his Father regardless of the court order. and I would say "No." and hit send. ETA: I like JenT's response even better.

It is a losing situation to get into a discussion. There is no way for you to win, be understood, gain agreement, come to a compromise, or anything else. IME, it always ends badly and makes things worse.

My motto is to only respond to the necessary parts, keep it short, and let the rest go. I remind myself that I am free. I can choose to no longer give his words power over my emotional and mental well being.

Sometimes I actually visualize each of us in our own space. Me in my bubble with my sunny house and serenity. Him in his empty bubble . I see myself reading the words and then lifting them up and letting them go. Bloop - out of my bubble. He might have some kind of an outburst but he's in his own bubble, he can work through his own emotions. He might furiously send more words. Bloop Bloop. Disclaimer: My xah is not physically abusive or threatening so this works really well for me.

mamaplus2kids

He answered my "are the 23rd and 24th convenient?"

with:

"I have no other plans,.. so Saturday night PJ party for [our son] and Daddy then?"

I am thinking of answering: "No."

Thumper

That guy is a piece of work.

I think 'No' is appropriate. Maybe add specific times. '9am - 1pm' or whatever.

mamaplus2kids

I answered:

"No.

Does 9am to 1pm on Sat 23 and Sun 24 work for you?"