sad and proud of me all at once
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
sad and proud of me all at once
So my AH called today feeling frustrated, disconnected and sad since we live in different states and have been so busy this week, we really haven't had a good, intimate conversation in a while.
Phone therapy was off last week since the therapist was out of town.
He exclaimed that he wasn't going to do this forever - be friends without a marriage.
I said we had agreed to reconsider things in April, so why trip on "forever".
He insisted April was when I was going to decide he was not good enough.
I said I was in total agreement and I felt disconnected, too and that was a good thing because we both wanted to work on that and could come to an agreement about how to work on that.
He was not impressed. He asked if anything had changed. I said no. He wondered what the point was. I said I was OPEN to therapy changing him and/or I enough that we could come to connection and compromise. I said that if he was feeling like we weren't getting anywhere, what would success look like so we would know when we achieved it, but he couldn't answer. (That's important, I think)
Finally, he responded that I would stop being pissed at him and accept him. (LOL)
I asked him if HE could accept the new ME.
I asked him what if I never changed? What if I wanted this new level of communication and wanted him to acknowledge the depression and lying/hiding and drinking were a problem and that never changed?
"I have! [acknowledged its a problem]" he insisted. (uhh.. QUACK!)
"No you haven't."
He said, "I guess you have said that. I guess you've said that all along. I guess you still want that."
Yep.
He then went into this whole thing about how I was controlling and giving ultimatums and wasn't being loving or kind. (distracting from the issue)
Dang, does that hit me where it hurts, but I stood fast.
I said what felt like an ultimatum to me was me allowing myself to have needs and that I did love him, but that he didn't have to be or do what I wanted.
He said, "I AM working on those things, but not in YOUR way! It can only be YOUR way and nothing I choose is good enough!"
I said, "I appreciate your willingness (uh huh!), but I need more than words, I need actions."
"I AM doing things, it's just not what you want!" (He's reading some spirituality books (on his own), we are working on a couple's communication book together and doing phone therapy, but with no change in his attitude, perspective or behavior as yet.)
I said that maybe he was right after all and him quitting would help because I couldn't trust him and if he COULD quit then I wouldn't need to ask him to get help for alcoholism.
"After I've already cut back for you?" he asks, "Down to twice a week...more or less..." (more or less! Quack)
"Yep."
"But I've cut down to where it is not a problem and I don't WANT to and you can't control me."
"I understand. But do you realize if you WERE alcoholic, that would be your exact answer?"
More quacking about me controlling him and how a relationship where he wasn't trusted would never work.
This is where I got frustrated. Putting it on me. I started to raise my voice, then calmed myself down and said, "I feel frustrated. I don't trust you because you lie, AH. You have lied about THIS EXACT THING."
More quacking. "FINE! FINE!" he shouts.
Quack quack and more quacking.
Normally, I can't even bear to SAY the lie word because it's on the do-not-talk-about-it list. But I did. I held my ground. I told him what I needed.
I ended with me understanding it was his choice, in the end, whether he quit or went to therapy or did anything that I needed, but I still needed what I needed and that I loved him and was sorry this was hurtful.
I could see what was happening pretty well. I could self-soothe when he told me I was unloving and controlling and have a counter-message (internally) that I was loving and setting boundaries and it was okay.
He ended up grumpy and shut down, but I declined to "pull him out of it" or soothe him or anything.
I told him if he felt like talking he could call.
I thought I did a pretty good job and got a step closer to both of us coming to terms that we want different things.
Sad and proud of me all at once.
peace
Phone therapy was off last week since the therapist was out of town.
He exclaimed that he wasn't going to do this forever - be friends without a marriage.
I said we had agreed to reconsider things in April, so why trip on "forever".
He insisted April was when I was going to decide he was not good enough.
I said I was in total agreement and I felt disconnected, too and that was a good thing because we both wanted to work on that and could come to an agreement about how to work on that.
He was not impressed. He asked if anything had changed. I said no. He wondered what the point was. I said I was OPEN to therapy changing him and/or I enough that we could come to connection and compromise. I said that if he was feeling like we weren't getting anywhere, what would success look like so we would know when we achieved it, but he couldn't answer. (That's important, I think)
Finally, he responded that I would stop being pissed at him and accept him. (LOL)
I asked him if HE could accept the new ME.
I asked him what if I never changed? What if I wanted this new level of communication and wanted him to acknowledge the depression and lying/hiding and drinking were a problem and that never changed?
"I have! [acknowledged its a problem]" he insisted. (uhh.. QUACK!)
"No you haven't."
He said, "I guess you have said that. I guess you've said that all along. I guess you still want that."
Yep.
He then went into this whole thing about how I was controlling and giving ultimatums and wasn't being loving or kind. (distracting from the issue)
Dang, does that hit me where it hurts, but I stood fast.
I said what felt like an ultimatum to me was me allowing myself to have needs and that I did love him, but that he didn't have to be or do what I wanted.
He said, "I AM working on those things, but not in YOUR way! It can only be YOUR way and nothing I choose is good enough!"
I said, "I appreciate your willingness (uh huh!), but I need more than words, I need actions."
"I AM doing things, it's just not what you want!" (He's reading some spirituality books (on his own), we are working on a couple's communication book together and doing phone therapy, but with no change in his attitude, perspective or behavior as yet.)
I said that maybe he was right after all and him quitting would help because I couldn't trust him and if he COULD quit then I wouldn't need to ask him to get help for alcoholism.
"After I've already cut back for you?" he asks, "Down to twice a week...more or less..." (more or less! Quack)
"Yep."
"But I've cut down to where it is not a problem and I don't WANT to and you can't control me."
"I understand. But do you realize if you WERE alcoholic, that would be your exact answer?"
More quacking about me controlling him and how a relationship where he wasn't trusted would never work.
This is where I got frustrated. Putting it on me. I started to raise my voice, then calmed myself down and said, "I feel frustrated. I don't trust you because you lie, AH. You have lied about THIS EXACT THING."
More quacking. "FINE! FINE!" he shouts.
Quack quack and more quacking.
Normally, I can't even bear to SAY the lie word because it's on the do-not-talk-about-it list. But I did. I held my ground. I told him what I needed.
I ended with me understanding it was his choice, in the end, whether he quit or went to therapy or did anything that I needed, but I still needed what I needed and that I loved him and was sorry this was hurtful.
I could see what was happening pretty well. I could self-soothe when he told me I was unloving and controlling and have a counter-message (internally) that I was loving and setting boundaries and it was okay.
He ended up grumpy and shut down, but I declined to "pull him out of it" or soothe him or anything.
I told him if he felt like talking he could call.
I thought I did a pretty good job and got a step closer to both of us coming to terms that we want different things.
Sad and proud of me all at once.
peace
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 342
Thank you so much for sharing this FindingPeace1. I am at this same place with my AH and am just starting to feel my feelings again and learn to set my boundaries.
Your conversation with your AH sounded so like the conversation I had with my AH last night except I am not as strong in my recovery - maybe still trying to control the outcome and not wanting to face the reality of our relationship. Also the day before I wanted to make sure that I told AH that I loved him and cared about him but I wasn't going to stand by while he made unhealthy choices or have him keep lying to me about seeking true recovery. (we're separated and he is "working" a program)
The LYING is my big thing too and I was proud of myself saying last night to my AH - you are not telling the truth. I do realize now as our conversation continued he manipulated me away from my boundary of wanting truth. Your example brings me back to the path I want to take, to move away from the emotional manipulation and be true to myself.
Thank you so much again and I am glad you are proud of you and I share your sadness as you go through this.
Your conversation with your AH sounded so like the conversation I had with my AH last night except I am not as strong in my recovery - maybe still trying to control the outcome and not wanting to face the reality of our relationship. Also the day before I wanted to make sure that I told AH that I loved him and cared about him but I wasn't going to stand by while he made unhealthy choices or have him keep lying to me about seeking true recovery. (we're separated and he is "working" a program)
The LYING is my big thing too and I was proud of myself saying last night to my AH - you are not telling the truth. I do realize now as our conversation continued he manipulated me away from my boundary of wanting truth. Your example brings me back to the path I want to take, to move away from the emotional manipulation and be true to myself.
Thank you so much again and I am glad you are proud of you and I share your sadness as you go through this.
Formerly known as soconfused11
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Colon, MI
Posts: 410
I was inspired by your post today...and I can also relate.
I just posted a thread about xabf and his new woman...his reasoning was that I wasn't "loving" enough...he couldn't quite grasp that he needs to fix himself and do most of the loving himself. Heck I still struggle with it myself...but it just sort of leaves me feeling not good enough...if I had only been "more loving"...he wouldn't have disrespected or mistreated me. Wrong.
Good for you, and I hope the sadness becomes less and less.
I just posted a thread about xabf and his new woman...his reasoning was that I wasn't "loving" enough...he couldn't quite grasp that he needs to fix himself and do most of the loving himself. Heck I still struggle with it myself...but it just sort of leaves me feeling not good enough...if I had only been "more loving"...he wouldn't have disrespected or mistreated me. Wrong.
Good for you, and I hope the sadness becomes less and less.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Del Rio, TX
Posts: 380
great and eerily familiar story. Good on you for seeing through the quacking. I've heard almost the exact same things. Especially the "nothing I do is good enough for you" nonsense.
My alcoholic wife also HATES it when I mention how much she's lied. She really hates it when I remind her that because of all the past lies it is hard to believe this or that. I remind her that her recent pledge to not lie doesn't erase the years of hostility and mistrust built up through living with an alcoholic. And she stops quacking. For a while.
Keep strong. It sounds like you are on top of this.
My alcoholic wife also HATES it when I mention how much she's lied. She really hates it when I remind her that because of all the past lies it is hard to believe this or that. I remind her that her recent pledge to not lie doesn't erase the years of hostility and mistrust built up through living with an alcoholic. And she stops quacking. For a while.
Keep strong. It sounds like you are on top of this.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waterford MI
Posts: 4,202
But I've cut down to where it is not a problem and I don't WANT to and you can't control me."
Oh, this is classic.
Wow, you have really made a leap FindingPeace.
Amazing transformation.
Very good work FP.
Beth
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
I'm proud of you, too FP. The sadness is sign you are accepting him the way he is. You've been trying to change him for a long time, and he's been telling you he is unwilling to change for just as long. So, in a way, your sadness is a sign of progress. It's like reality is edging out the false hope. I know it doesn't feel good, but trust me, it is.
L
L
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 447
I love that...very profound, LaTeeDa...thank you.
I needed to hear that today.
Mine lies all the time.
He gets more defensive every day.
and I CAN accept him the way he is.
But I can't stay married to him if he's stuck in the same place.
I think sticking to your boundary was great.
I know he didn't tell you what you WANTED to hear but I think you heard what he was truly saying. What I read was that he's done the bare minimum of what he thinks it will take to keep you.
Now what I heard you say was that it was NOT enough.
The real question is....does he really hear you? Or is he going to keep manipulating to get what he wants and make you sacrifice what you NEED to be happy and that's a husband in recovery.
I appreciated you sharing...
I needed to hear that today.
Mine lies all the time.
He gets more defensive every day.
and I CAN accept him the way he is.
But I can't stay married to him if he's stuck in the same place.
I think sticking to your boundary was great.
I know he didn't tell you what you WANTED to hear but I think you heard what he was truly saying. What I read was that he's done the bare minimum of what he thinks it will take to keep you.
Now what I heard you say was that it was NOT enough.
The real question is....does he really hear you? Or is he going to keep manipulating to get what he wants and make you sacrifice what you NEED to be happy and that's a husband in recovery.
I appreciated you sharing...
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
LTD, I think you're right.
I have resisted *what is so* for so long.
I have hoped and wished and felt frustrated and angry and sad and tried 1000 things and approaches. I have stayed silent. I have tried to talk it out. I have moved away. I have tried therapy. I have tried to give him space. I have tried and tried.
He wants to be who HE wants to be.
I don't like a lot of it.
Therapy tomorrow! I'll keep you updated!
peace
I have resisted *what is so* for so long.
I have hoped and wished and felt frustrated and angry and sad and tried 1000 things and approaches. I have stayed silent. I have tried to talk it out. I have moved away. I have tried therapy. I have tried to give him space. I have tried and tried.
He wants to be who HE wants to be.
I don't like a lot of it.
Therapy tomorrow! I'll keep you updated!
peace
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 277
Aren't the discussions so exhausting? It's such a disease of denial that it makes productive conversation just about impossible. Reading your post reminded me of my next-day diatribe with my friend - telling her about the ridiculous conversation I had with AH the night before.
You sound like you are doing well - I wish you blessings as you continue on your path.
You sound like you are doing well - I wish you blessings as you continue on your path.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 218
Hi FindingPeace,
I love seeing your name pop up - and I love your posts. We joined the boards at about the same time and I remember your early posts so well. I don't want to cut and paste on here in case it's an over-step but I just read your very first post as a refresher and man, have you come a long way in 18 months. Pat yourself on the back - you're an inspiration.
I read your post about ultimatums. It's not manipulative to have a bottom line. I take it that you guys are living separately and you're at a fork in the road.
The problem all along has been that he's an alcoholic who lies, hides things, deflects, turns things around on you and defaults to "nothing's ever good enough" when you ask him to show in good faith that he's willing to address either his alcoholism or his inability to participate in a healthy, mature, functional marriage.
The problem on your end used to be that you were willing to keep hoping for change and hanging in there and engaging in the deflection. You're now seeing through it - and it is sad. He hasn't changed during your marriage. And he isn't changing right now. You've changed. A lot. Either he doesn't believe you when you tell him that you have a bottom line - or he really isn't capable or willing of addressing his addiction and depression. Either way, you're at that fork.
From what you're writing, you're already kind of done - forgive me if this isn't the case. And it sounds to me like part of you is giving him every possible last chance - maybe so you know that you really gave it your best shot. Or maybe because being the one to call time on a marriage is a lot to shoulder. Regardless, you'll get there when you get there - and you're seeing clearly what his responses really mean and how they relate to his disease.
I think you're amazing.
SL
I love seeing your name pop up - and I love your posts. We joined the boards at about the same time and I remember your early posts so well. I don't want to cut and paste on here in case it's an over-step but I just read your very first post as a refresher and man, have you come a long way in 18 months. Pat yourself on the back - you're an inspiration.
I read your post about ultimatums. It's not manipulative to have a bottom line. I take it that you guys are living separately and you're at a fork in the road.
The problem all along has been that he's an alcoholic who lies, hides things, deflects, turns things around on you and defaults to "nothing's ever good enough" when you ask him to show in good faith that he's willing to address either his alcoholism or his inability to participate in a healthy, mature, functional marriage.
The problem on your end used to be that you were willing to keep hoping for change and hanging in there and engaging in the deflection. You're now seeing through it - and it is sad. He hasn't changed during your marriage. And he isn't changing right now. You've changed. A lot. Either he doesn't believe you when you tell him that you have a bottom line - or he really isn't capable or willing of addressing his addiction and depression. Either way, you're at that fork.
From what you're writing, you're already kind of done - forgive me if this isn't the case. And it sounds to me like part of you is giving him every possible last chance - maybe so you know that you really gave it your best shot. Or maybe because being the one to call time on a marriage is a lot to shoulder. Regardless, you'll get there when you get there - and you're seeing clearly what his responses really mean and how they relate to his disease.
I think you're amazing.
SL
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Well, I'll tell you what! All your encouragement brings me great warmth in my heart.
I appreciate you all very much and I have learned a lot here.
I have "let go" more than I ever thought possible and there is more to do.
It is awesome that the overall coaching found on this board is so honoring and encouraging and life-affirming.
I continue to work on treating my AH with respect and honor and MYSELF the same - making sure I am taking care of me first.
I love you all
peace
I appreciate you all very much and I have learned a lot here.
I have "let go" more than I ever thought possible and there is more to do.
It is awesome that the overall coaching found on this board is so honoring and encouraging and life-affirming.
I continue to work on treating my AH with respect and honor and MYSELF the same - making sure I am taking care of me first.
I love you all
peace
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,207
fp1,
I can't imagine how hard it would be to get to the place where you are now. I was only able to do it because I had children and AXH's behaviors were so clearly impacting my kids negatively. THAT made my difficult decision easier, though of course not easy.
To take responsibility and decide what you do and don't want in your life and will and will not accept is HARD, and I commend you for seeing it.
I can't imagine how hard it would be to get to the place where you are now. I was only able to do it because I had children and AXH's behaviors were so clearly impacting my kids negatively. THAT made my difficult decision easier, though of course not easy.
To take responsibility and decide what you do and don't want in your life and will and will not accept is HARD, and I commend you for seeing it.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Well, Stella, it doesn't surprise me to hear you say that because what happened in the beginning (I didn't talk much about this piece of it then - it was too sensitive) was that I was pregnant!
I found his fulls (which he hid) and then his empties and wine in a to-go coffee cup and I put it all together.
Then, the day after I found the empties, I lost the baby.
The whole thing CHANGED me.
The idea that he would pull all this - the lying and hiding and self abuse, on our child! OH HE!!, NO!
That fierce, protective mamma bear thing happened to me. This.is.not.acceptable.
SO CLEAR.
I had been in denial for YEARS before that. Saw the signs, the flags, stepped over it all.
But once I was pregnant, I could see his behavior through new eyes.
Of course, this is not to say it was a straight path! That all started in Oct 2009!
Since then, my standing up for better treatment has led to a lot more cr*p behavior on his part. That was more reason to say, "NOT OKAY BEHAVIOUR!"
My work has been integrating the part of me that knows I need to take care of myself and I deserve better and the part of me that has been in denial.
That process is not done, but the "wise" side of me is at least TALKING to and can see denial girl. Denial girl isn't doing much talking yet. She's pretty catatonic. But that's okay. All my "parts" are loving her and reminding her she's safe.
So my unborn, now gone, baby helped me, too. In fact, I believe s/he came into my life to help me address this stuff BEFORE I co-parented.
I still DEEPLY love my AH. There is a lot of yuck pity in there, too that I am working on releasing. I wish him ALL the best. I really do. And I hope I wasn't wrong (LOL! After all this and I still have that part of me that doubts!). But even if he ends up happy and non-addicted and in a great relationship, that would be so good.
I hope I end up happy and in a great relationship with someone non-addicted.
In the meantime, I hope for a peaceful resolution to our marriage.
Again, I love you all,
Peace
I found his fulls (which he hid) and then his empties and wine in a to-go coffee cup and I put it all together.
Then, the day after I found the empties, I lost the baby.
The whole thing CHANGED me.
The idea that he would pull all this - the lying and hiding and self abuse, on our child! OH HE!!, NO!
That fierce, protective mamma bear thing happened to me. This.is.not.acceptable.
SO CLEAR.
I had been in denial for YEARS before that. Saw the signs, the flags, stepped over it all.
But once I was pregnant, I could see his behavior through new eyes.
Of course, this is not to say it was a straight path! That all started in Oct 2009!
Since then, my standing up for better treatment has led to a lot more cr*p behavior on his part. That was more reason to say, "NOT OKAY BEHAVIOUR!"
My work has been integrating the part of me that knows I need to take care of myself and I deserve better and the part of me that has been in denial.
That process is not done, but the "wise" side of me is at least TALKING to and can see denial girl. Denial girl isn't doing much talking yet. She's pretty catatonic. But that's okay. All my "parts" are loving her and reminding her she's safe.
So my unborn, now gone, baby helped me, too. In fact, I believe s/he came into my life to help me address this stuff BEFORE I co-parented.
I still DEEPLY love my AH. There is a lot of yuck pity in there, too that I am working on releasing. I wish him ALL the best. I really do. And I hope I wasn't wrong (LOL! After all this and I still have that part of me that doubts!). But even if he ends up happy and non-addicted and in a great relationship, that would be so good.
I hope I end up happy and in a great relationship with someone non-addicted.
In the meantime, I hope for a peaceful resolution to our marriage.
Again, I love you all,
Peace
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Thanks for sharing, FindingPeace1. Brings tears to my eyes and I wish you the peace you seek to find. That must have been a hard post to write. But you found something in your painful circumstance - yourself. That's pretty profound.
I love my RAH, too. I don't think he loves me much - at least I don't really feel connected to it anymore. I, too, wish him the best. Because ultimately I need to take care of me. What he does with himself and his life is his business. It just hurts, doesn't it? I wish for the day it stops hurting.
Wishing you good days in your future!
~T
I love my RAH, too. I don't think he loves me much - at least I don't really feel connected to it anymore. I, too, wish him the best. Because ultimately I need to take care of me. What he does with himself and his life is his business. It just hurts, doesn't it? I wish for the day it stops hurting.
Wishing you good days in your future!
~T
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