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Old 02-01-2011, 11:36 PM
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I Need Advice/Input

Hi It's me Hailee with another request for advice! My AH whom I have been seperated from for 3.5months (went to live with his parents when I threw him out), is stressing me out from 1000 miles away!

He swears he has been sober this whole time attending AA 2 meetings a day, sponsor, reading, the whole 9. Problem is he does not behave as if he is. He did come up over MLK weekend and spend time with our babies, girls 7, 5, and 16mo old son and he was awesome. Had the BB in his suitcase looked good, talked like he was trying to recover and understand. When he went back to his parents, he just seems like the same old AH. When I question him about his financial responsibility to us at home he gets mad. He has not given me 10cents since he left, is not working, etc etc. Spends his days with his parents cooking his meals, paying for everything, and they even bought him a used pick up truck $6000.

I asked him to come back here if he is sober and watch his children so I can work and save money on babysitting ($150 week). I am a RN and I work 12 hour night shifts. He isn't in any hurry to do that either. He wants to "work on the relationship" Then when he gets really mad, he says he won't come back home and live like roommates to help me out with the kids and "be my b**ch". As soon as we start to have a heated disagreement he calls me really he is txting) disgusting names, cursing.

His bottom line is this. He feels that if I "treat him the way that I INSIST that he treats me, then all of our problems will be solved" "its an easy fix, he is willing to discuss it with me etc etc. He says the ball is in my court.

My impression is that he does not want to be in our children's lives if we are not a couple. If he can't have me, then he doesn't want them. I just said to him when he was complaining about what a princess I act like, (because I won't take his abusive language) that "we should not have to be together for you to be a father. That really makes him mad.

I don't know if I can handle the guilt of their father not wanting to be with them bc of me. I have a little boy who needs a dad (even a supervised one).(lol) WTF? Is this just talk on his part? He says he is sober but I don't think people in AA for 3.5 mos think like this/act like this. How am I supposed to raise a son with no father figure and two little girls? I can physically do it I guess. I think the psychological impact of being rejected by him will cause so much damage, it may not matter how great a job I do.

Do I go into biblical couples counseling with him and try this again? Is he just bluffing? How should I react? He e-mailed me yesterday and I have not responded yet. Waiting to get good advice from you guys!
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Old 02-02-2011, 01:27 AM
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I don't know if I can handle the guilt of their father not wanting to be with them bc of me.
This is not a reason for you to feel guilt. He has a responsibility for the kids regardless if you are together or not.

On your questions, there is no way for me to answer. Just put yourself and the kids first.
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:50 AM
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Hi Hailee -

What a lot for one plate!

If you're an RN, then you have a really good idea where this is going.

I know many hospitals are 'home'
for Alanon groups -
and evn though it's such a competetitive field
I think 3d support is what's going to
help you through.

You might also check with your state
and get him court ordered to pay
child support.

He's not going to do anything but what he wants,
is that what this is saying?

He had that before and look where it got him.

I think 3d support is going to help, too.
Alanon groups are connected.
They're going to be able to tell you
what you can do meanwhile
to get the kids the QUALITY childcare
they deserve
and the peace of mind
that YOU deserve.

What you're describing is not a relationship.
It's negotiations like a labor union thing.

It sounds like the next step
is to find out where you stand legally.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:16 AM
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If I understand correctly, you are being verbally abused by your AH, over the phone and via text, AND he is not providing financial assistance (or any other kind of assistance allowing you to work)?

Biblical counselling is not going to work with this man. He is not interested in an equal loving partnership. He is interested in having things HIS way or not at all, the children be damned.

Yes, your son deserves a father, but not one who verbally abuses his mother whenever he doesn't get his way. Imagine what he'll grow up thinking about marriage and relationships in general...

Barb is right. You need legal advice and support.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:08 AM
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I have to agree with the previous posters.

You might consult an attorney about getting an order for CS during his voluntary absence from his children.

That may lead him to say he's coming home, but it's your decision whether he lives in your house. Once an A is out, I wouldn't let him move back in unless that is what YOU want.

Drinking or not, thought patterns don't change overnight and he sounds very selfish.

Don't worry about your children's long-term prognosis. Just fill their needs for today in a loving, consistent way. All of us who have chidlren with alcoholic spouses worry about them this way, but one good parent is enough, if they're lucky enough to have that. And yours are. ((hugs))
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:51 AM
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Alcoholics are alot alike. The stuff he is telling you is the same as my A is telling me. My A is the father of my 2 kids who are 3 and 4 and then he has another son who is six. His son lives 13 miles from us and he does not make any plans to see him and hasn't for a year. The mother of his son doesn't let him come over anymore because I reported something to CPS, so my kids dad left it at that and doesn't care to see him. How sad is that! So as much as you hope they will WANT to be involved, that is their choice and he is missing out.

I agree with the others file for CS. Hang in there!
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Old 02-02-2011, 01:56 PM
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His hostage taking and using the children to negotiate isn’t anything I’ve ever read happens in RECOVERY.

I think your inner voice is screaming at you that NO in fact he is not in recovery, that he’s living comfortable with enablers and using guilt as his weapon.

Psychological impact of children being rejected by an active alcoholic or psychological impact of children being subject to active alcoholism and codependency…..hummmm

How about you add another choice to that mix………mom goes to al-anon, mom learns new healthy tools that will help her and her children in the long run.

((((Hailee))))
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:18 PM
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Hugs, Hailee. Please do not buy into his blameshifting. You are not to blame for him not being in his children's lives. He is. It is his choice to be an a--hat. If he is truly going to AA and working the program, then it is HIM and not the alcohol (as I was so ready to blame for XAH's lack of involvement with DS). Heck, even if he is still drinking and is lying about AA, it is still HIM and not the alcohol. It is not you. It is not your fault.

You did not Cause it.
You cannot Control it.
You cannot Cure it.

I've been struggling with the preconceptions that boys need men in their lives to learn to be men. I don't necessarily think it's true. Would it be ideal? Yes. But DS is not condemned just because his dad is an idiot. I posted on another thread that I've just started reading "The Courage to Raise Good Men." I'm hopeful that I'll get some useful insight from it.

I love the last paragraph in Stella's post.

Please take care of yourself and remember: It is HIS choice, not your fault.
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:31 PM
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His bottom line is this. He feels that if I "treat him the way that I INSIST that he treats me, then all of our problems will be solved" "its an easy fix, he is willing to discuss it with me etc etc. He says the ball is in my court.
Yes, this is his way of pointing his finger at (blaming) you. You can choose to believe it or not.

My impression is that he does not want to be in our children's lives if we are not a couple. If he can't have me, then he doesn't want them.
This is called Emotional Blackmail. Again, you can choose to fall for it or not.

(((hugs))) He is an a$$hole. I would file for child support.
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Old 02-02-2011, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by stella27 View Post
Drinking or not, thought patterns don't change overnight and he sounds very selfish.
Very Key Point--excellent interpretation stella........
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Old 02-02-2011, 05:44 PM
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Three months, even if he is in recovery is a very short time. My ex was in recovery with a sponsor, working his steps, but after only 90 days was still a hot mess!

If you are not sure, you should not decide anything, more will be revealed. I know it was hard to make the break, don't be too quick to undo it.

I would definitely consult an attorney, just to know where I stand. You don't have to do anything, but I bet you will feel stronger just knowing.

Take care of you and those precious children. You sound like a great mom
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Old 02-02-2011, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by seekingcalm View Post
Three months, even if he is in recovery is a very short time. My ex was in recovery with a sponsor, working his steps, but after only 90 days was still a hot mess!
I certainly don't mean to butt in on Hailees thread...but how was he after 6 months..he has a sponsor, worked his steps..and a withdrawn, quick tempered mess...my fiance that is
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:42 PM
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Thanks Everybody for your input

My Church counselor called me today (I have been going by myself since right before he left to get a handle on forgiveness and my reactions to his insane actions).

Apparrently he called her from 1000 miles away and wants her to counsel him. Counselor hadn't spoken to him as of yet--he just left her a message today. I have still not replied to his last e-mail which put the ball in my court-

You all have such good advice and you help me to step away from being wife/mommy and get some real perspective on the situation. Dealing with him is like a labor union negotiation. He always says stuff like "things need to be a two way street" and he isn't being treated nicely, yet he is drinking, using porn, and passing out while he is in charge of small children who can't fend for themselves while his wife is supporting everyone. How does he expect to be treated?

He is not working down at his parents house, so that's why I hesitate to file for CS at this point. What the heck is the court going to give me?

Haven't talked to him--counselor says she will and I will call her on Friday if I have time. All of a sudden he is amping up wanting to reconcile after he has been lounging in Florida for 4 months doing nothing. I think he realizes that I can do this myself and I will. He knows that I am one tiny step from walking.

Thank you again everyone.
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Old 02-02-2011, 08:45 PM
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As far as the CS, I think each state is different. Child Support Services could only award back to the date of my application and based only on what he was currently making.

With the divorce, the court was able to make the payments due back to the date of our separation. If he hadn't been working at the time (which was incredibly likely) they could have calculated based on what he is capable of earning.

It's been over a year since I filed with Child Support Services, I got a grand total of $100 through their initial efforts before XAH quit and they had to start all over in tracking him down. It's been about 2 months since the divorce became final and the court order put his past due back to the date of separation. Still nothing. I'm not really expecting much. He'll quit again. But it's on record and it's accruing, for what ever that's worth. It doesn't hurt to talk to some to see what the options are.

And you don't have to make any decisions right away. It will be OK to tell him you need more time if you want it.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:41 PM
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Hi Uncertainty--That is so brutal isn't it? They just walk and leave everything to their wives bc they know that we are responsible enough to pick up thier slack.

Who just walks away from their little children in the first place?

I haven't filed for CS bc I feel that I will put out more $ paying the darn lawyer than I will be able to get from him. I wouldn't file the paperwork myself as I am in school getting my Masters --and doing everything else. Not enough time to make sure this is done properly.

Thank you for your input--You sound like you know exactly where I am coming from and that is such a great feeling. (hugs)

Hailee
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:40 AM
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hi hailee-

it doesn't sound like recovery to me. from what you've explained:

1. you are raising the children alone without any help from him;
2. you are the sole financial provider while he lounges at his parent's house;
3. he is blame-shifting and saying that the problems in the relationship are because of you
4. he is verbally abusive
5. he's not interested in the kids unless you and him are a couple

a mistake that i made was that i assumed the xABF thought like i did. he didn't. he was in his own litle fantasy world of entitlement. he wanted what he wanted when he wanted it and anyone who didn't play along with that game, was out.

oh, he could be charming when he wanted something. if that something was denied, the charm left. it was fake charm, pure manipulation.

i wouldn't take on that he doesn't want to be with the kids because of you. he doesn't want to be with the kids because of HIMSELF. that is his responsibility, not yours. your responsibility is YOUR relationship with your children. i understand that you want a father for them, but he is not assuming that responsibility. that is not your fault. while it is certainly less than ideal, it is better than having the children live with an alcoholic.

ok, try turning the tables here. let's say you were him. would you be lounging at your parent's house, accepting their handouts while you had 3 small children somewhere?

let's turn the tables some more. imagine that your partner was working and raising the kids alone. would you then call him up and BLAME HIM for the fact that you were doing nothing for your offspring?

i would render a guess that his only interest in the church counselor is to get information on you that he can use against you. i don't think it's a good idea to share a counselor, especially one who is not trained in addiction and might fall for his manipulations.

if it was me, i would ask the counselor to not take him, and if they chose to, i would find myself a different counselor/therapist where i could not have my confidences perhaps compromised. it really needs to be a safe place FOR YOU. i would imagine that there are plenty of counselors near where he is living that he could use and i really question his sudden need to use the same counselor as you.

i also wouldn't believe one word he says about not drinking and attending AA, because he is not manifesting any of their tenants at this time.
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:44 AM
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Hi Hailee,

You have had a lot of good advice but I will add what I have experienced and know about Florida laws and child support.

Only you truly know the full history of your past relationship, marriage, addiction/recovery efforts by your husband and most importantly his spiritual relationship with his HP. As you mentioned bible based counseling I assume that you and your husband are followers of Jesus Christ and that is his world view and life philosophy. If that is the case it makes it pretty easy for your to judge whether your husband is on a true recovery path and is following Christ or he is just "quacking" (addictive manipulations).

If Jesus is his HP (higher power) and bible based recovery and AA are the standards then you should see some verifiable "fruit". Jesus said we were to judge a tree by its fruit and the goal of Christianity and AA are the same and that is to please God with a true relationship that results in a changed man or woman. The AA'er who follows the recovery path of AA is almost identical to the path that an authentic Christian would follow out of the bible (AA is completely biblically based from the Book of James, Corinithians (the love chapter) and the Sermon on the Mount).

There is a saying in AA that if a horse thief stops drinking then all you have a sober horse thief. I don't know what came first the chicken or the egg but it sounds like your husband is not the kind of person you want to be married to at this time. Was he ever a man of high moral character that fulfilled his role as husband and father to you?

Once an alcoholic stops drinking the hard work of learning to live a life of character and integrity pleasing to those around us and most importantly to God begins in earnest if they are truly in a program of recovery as AA teaches it. However, modern AA only
requires that a person want to stop drinking to attend their meetings (in the early days of AA you had to get sponsored in, complete the steps and get a card to get in!)
... the full program as it was designed is completely voluntary as willingness is a necessity for it to work.

Perhaps your counselor can determine what recovery efforts your husband has actually made. Does he have a sponsor? Has he completed the steps (doubtful since he is obviously not making any attempt to make ammends to you or your children or take care of his responsibilities). Judging the fruit of the tree brings much needed information.

With 3.5 months of sobriety and a nice new set of wheels it seems he could contribute in some way financially if he really wanted to. In Florida even the unemployed dad still has a responsibility to contribute at least what a minimum wage job would provide. You are looking at at least a 100.00 to 150.00 a week ordered by a judge in Florida and if he failed to pay and you requested the Department of Revenue to force payment they would take his drivers license. It is amazing how motivated men get to pay some support when they have been walking for a few days.


Visit some alanon meetings and you will find woman who have been where you are. Set up a free consultation with a lawyer and find out what steps you would need to take to set the wheels in motion to get some financial assistance from him for the kids.

Most of all... take care of you and the kids. Time reveals all things so don't get pressured or feel rushed to make decisions.
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:56 AM
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I would add this...

...I can see in your post several things that indicate to me you would be well served by going to several Al-Anon meetings. While you are not responsible for his behavior in any way, it is my view that you are doing a lot of what many people call The Fourth C.
  1. You didn't cause it.
  2. You can't control it.
  3. You can't cure it.
  4. But you can contribute to it.

Your situation is very tough, and I empathize with you and your children. That said, and there is no excuse for his behavior, if my wife said to me some of the things that you indicate you have said to him, and if she treated me like a child instead of an equal, there would be huge, huge problems. I also know this because I did the very same thing to my alcoholic wife-- treated her like a child instead of an equal.

He is not a child, even though he is apparantly acting like one. He's an alcoholic, and despite the issues that come with that (and I know after 13 years with mine), it does not serve you to treat him like, or consider him, a child. He's an adult, alcoholic, man and father, whose parents and maybe his wife continue to treat, and support, him as if he were a child.

Adult relationships, IMHO, don't have "rules," but adults in relationships can and should set boundaries for what they will accept from their partners (though without enforcement the boundaries will be meaningless).

His behavior is telling you all you need to know for you to decide if he should remain your life partner. If you set boundaries, and enforce them, his response to those boundaries will tell you all you need to know for you to decide if he should remain your life partner.

As for this, "I asked him to come back here if he is sober and watch his children so I can work and save money on babysitting ($150 week). I am a RN and I work 12 hour night shifts." This is a HUGE, HUGE part of the problem. You are going to be responsible for everything? You are going to be the only wage earner? You don't need to be the martyr here. One of the very few things I did right when I allowed my wife to return home was to tell her that I would only consider it if she obtained, and kept, a full time job-- any job. I was ready, willing, and able to enforce that boundary. She felt that and honored that. I finally, after seven years, did something right.

May I also suggest that your posts indicate he is far from able to be a full-time caregiver for any children, that he acts like a 12-year old, and that alcoholics don't make good babysitters, especially in the beginning stages of recovery (if he really is)? I just can't conceive of any scenario in which this is a good idea.

Lastly, I would like to point out that you and your husband are at this very moment teaching your children how husbands and wives treat each other. You are setting the stage for their future relationships.

I apologize if this came off harsh. I'm trying to be as gentle as possible. Take what you want and leave the rest.

Cyranoak
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:40 AM
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He is not working down at his parents house, so that's why I hesitate to file for CS at this point. What the heck is the court going to give me?
The court will start a tab for him. Sorta like at a bar.
When he doesnt pay, they might do any number of things to get him to pay.
If he is pulled over and his name comes up for child support, they will arrest him and someone will have to come up with a sum (paid to you less court costs i think) to get him out of jail.
they will garnish his wages. any respectable business man will pay, because there are state and federal laws in place now that could punish and/or fine a businessman for trying to skirt the law.
they could take his license. they took my husbands and he drove anyway. since he was a drunken drug addict, in short order his truck and license were gone.

this is not money for you. this is money he must pay (BY LAW) for HIS children.

Beth
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:47 AM
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I asked him to come back here if he is sober and watch his children so I can work and save money on babysitting ($150 week).
My ex was supposed to pick up my kids or drop them off twice a week.
It was in his neighborhood (two blocks from his mothers), he could not manage that.
Either he was trying to punish me or just didnt care.
I think you could find a nursing student, credentials you could check, with training in emergency medicine who would be thrilled to watch your children.

Beth
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