ANOTHER MAN'S SHOES IAW Tucson, AZ
Rising from the Ashes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 451
ANOTHER MAN'S SHOES IAW Tucson, AZ
I hestitated to post my thoughts about the January 8, 2011; however, if you're like me, you sat glued to your television this weekend, watching the Tucson tragedy as it unfolded. 2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia However, I felt the need to do so!
I feel like I'm watching a lot of codependency reporting on this drastic, unnecessary waste of human lifes! The responses to this national tragedy have ranged from finger pointing at political parties to blaming the parents of the deranged paranoid schizophrenic.
I am an avid watcher in the mornings of "Fox and Friends". However, yesterday morning I felt like I wanted to jump through the TV set for a one-to-one conversation with Gretchen Carlson. She was talking about how the parents were responsible for the actions of their paranoid schizophrenic son and why couldn't they see how deranged he had become, and why they didn't get him the help he needed.
I've been there on a personal basis! As haven't we all?!......been there with our beloved alcoholics?!
Another good example of "Normies" NOT getting IT!
There isn't anything rational about something totally irrational!
"ANOTHER MAN'S SHOES"
I met a man walking, on a long dusty road;
he seemed to be burdened, with life's heavy load.
His hair was kind of shaggy, he'd been sleeping in his clothes;
his shoes were old and weathered, not pretty, heaven knows.
I said, "hello Sir, how do you do";
he looked at me and said, "how'd do".
I said, "Where are you going, on this hot sunny day";
he said, "I'm looking for heaven, and leave here I pray".
I said, "Come on now, don't be a fool";
he said, "This world is just too cruel".
I said, "Please explain your reasons to die;
before you leave this world and say good-by".
Then he said, "I'll tell you and maybe you'll see;
but promise me that you won't judge me".
Promise me that you won't condemn;
cause you just don't know, the condition I'm in.
You won't know me, or understand my blues;
until you have walked awhile in my shoes.
Until you have read every line in my face;
until you have stood awhile in my place.
You won't know me, until you have carried my load;
and struggled along this old dusty road.
Until you have felt, my pain and rejection;
and felt my sorrow, and felt my affliction.
He said, "I was born into dire poverty;
as rough a life, as ever can be".
My dad ran away, and my mother was cruel;
and everyone else, called me the fool.
I wandered the streets, when I was only nine;
getting into trouble and wasting my time.
I've been in many jails, throughout the years;
had a lot of heartache, shed a lot of tears.
I've felt cold eyes, staring at me;
by upper class people, and high society.
I've met people who won't, give me the time of day;
who went into a big fine church, and kneeled down to pray.
I've been cheated out of money, by everyone I've known;
I've been hated and despised, down to the bone.
I've felt hatred as cold, as an ice house floor;
from total strangers, that never met me before.
My whole life has been, filled with pain;
sometimes I wonder, if I'm insane.
But if I am, out of my mind;
why am I hated, most of the time.
Don't people have compassion on the mentally ill;
or be concerned, as to how do they feel.
Don't misunderstand me, I've done wrong too;
I'm not perfect, but neither are you.
People have tricked me, and slandered my name;
and talked behind my back, then smiled just the same.
I'm weary and tired, of life's heavy load;
not too many more days, will I walk this old road.
By my outward appearance, I know I'm not much;
But how can you judge me, by clothes and the such?
If anyone loved me, or cared at all;
they'd give me some help, this burden to haul.
Only God Loves me, this I believe;
from this whole world, nothing I receive.
If I were rich, and had plenty of money;
everyone would adore me, and call me honey.
But I am quite poor, from my presence they flee;
I've heard their cruel whispers, and slanders of me.
He now had stopped speaking, and he looked at my face;
I saw a tear on his cheek, leaving it's trace.
I was speechless and astounded, I spoke not a word;
he slowly turned, and walked down that old road.
I stood there just thinking, of the man I had met;
and suddenly I loved him, my eyes were then wet.
Another human being, I'll never judge nor condemn;
cause he may have walked, where I've never been.
How can I judge or condemn any man?;
until in his shoes, I walk and I stand
poem from website "talkjesus"
Any THOUGHTS???
Just my personal opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Love and Peace,
Phoenix
I feel like I'm watching a lot of codependency reporting on this drastic, unnecessary waste of human lifes! The responses to this national tragedy have ranged from finger pointing at political parties to blaming the parents of the deranged paranoid schizophrenic.
I am an avid watcher in the mornings of "Fox and Friends". However, yesterday morning I felt like I wanted to jump through the TV set for a one-to-one conversation with Gretchen Carlson. She was talking about how the parents were responsible for the actions of their paranoid schizophrenic son and why couldn't they see how deranged he had become, and why they didn't get him the help he needed.
I've been there on a personal basis! As haven't we all?!......been there with our beloved alcoholics?!
Another good example of "Normies" NOT getting IT!
There isn't anything rational about something totally irrational!
"ANOTHER MAN'S SHOES"
I met a man walking, on a long dusty road;
he seemed to be burdened, with life's heavy load.
His hair was kind of shaggy, he'd been sleeping in his clothes;
his shoes were old and weathered, not pretty, heaven knows.
I said, "hello Sir, how do you do";
he looked at me and said, "how'd do".
I said, "Where are you going, on this hot sunny day";
he said, "I'm looking for heaven, and leave here I pray".
I said, "Come on now, don't be a fool";
he said, "This world is just too cruel".
I said, "Please explain your reasons to die;
before you leave this world and say good-by".
Then he said, "I'll tell you and maybe you'll see;
but promise me that you won't judge me".
Promise me that you won't condemn;
cause you just don't know, the condition I'm in.
You won't know me, or understand my blues;
until you have walked awhile in my shoes.
Until you have read every line in my face;
until you have stood awhile in my place.
You won't know me, until you have carried my load;
and struggled along this old dusty road.
Until you have felt, my pain and rejection;
and felt my sorrow, and felt my affliction.
He said, "I was born into dire poverty;
as rough a life, as ever can be".
My dad ran away, and my mother was cruel;
and everyone else, called me the fool.
I wandered the streets, when I was only nine;
getting into trouble and wasting my time.
I've been in many jails, throughout the years;
had a lot of heartache, shed a lot of tears.
I've felt cold eyes, staring at me;
by upper class people, and high society.
I've met people who won't, give me the time of day;
who went into a big fine church, and kneeled down to pray.
I've been cheated out of money, by everyone I've known;
I've been hated and despised, down to the bone.
I've felt hatred as cold, as an ice house floor;
from total strangers, that never met me before.
My whole life has been, filled with pain;
sometimes I wonder, if I'm insane.
But if I am, out of my mind;
why am I hated, most of the time.
Don't people have compassion on the mentally ill;
or be concerned, as to how do they feel.
Don't misunderstand me, I've done wrong too;
I'm not perfect, but neither are you.
People have tricked me, and slandered my name;
and talked behind my back, then smiled just the same.
I'm weary and tired, of life's heavy load;
not too many more days, will I walk this old road.
By my outward appearance, I know I'm not much;
But how can you judge me, by clothes and the such?
If anyone loved me, or cared at all;
they'd give me some help, this burden to haul.
Only God Loves me, this I believe;
from this whole world, nothing I receive.
If I were rich, and had plenty of money;
everyone would adore me, and call me honey.
But I am quite poor, from my presence they flee;
I've heard their cruel whispers, and slanders of me.
He now had stopped speaking, and he looked at my face;
I saw a tear on his cheek, leaving it's trace.
I was speechless and astounded, I spoke not a word;
he slowly turned, and walked down that old road.
I stood there just thinking, of the man I had met;
and suddenly I loved him, my eyes were then wet.
Another human being, I'll never judge nor condemn;
cause he may have walked, where I've never been.
How can I judge or condemn any man?;
until in his shoes, I walk and I stand
poem from website "talkjesus"
Any THOUGHTS???
Just my personal opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Love and Peace,
Phoenix
the illogical vulcan
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In front of my computer.
Posts: 242
IMHO we have become a nation of wussies who all want to pass the buck and blame someone else for all our and societies
problems. What we need to do is drag that MF'er out of his cell and string his @$$ up.
problems. What we need to do is drag that MF'er out of his cell and string his @$$ up.
Skipper
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Texas, USA
Posts: 827
This is a hard, hard situation for us.
I have looked at families in court who were asked the same questions that Gretchen asked on Fox. Stunned and broken, their answers are the same, they just didn't know.
They didn't know how bad it was. They didn't know who to ask, where to go, or what to do.
I have seen parents who have neglected and abused their children. Again, most of them just didn't know a better way.
I hope this situation brings to the forefront more resources for parents and for society as a whole to be able to embrace those troubled souls and find the correct help that is needed.
I look at my own family and think that our situation could have gone on much longer and could have gotten much worse if we didn't know the resources available to us. I wonder, too, if there is another problem that arises, will we know where to go? What to do?
I pray we do.
I have looked at families in court who were asked the same questions that Gretchen asked on Fox. Stunned and broken, their answers are the same, they just didn't know.
They didn't know how bad it was. They didn't know who to ask, where to go, or what to do.
I have seen parents who have neglected and abused their children. Again, most of them just didn't know a better way.
I hope this situation brings to the forefront more resources for parents and for society as a whole to be able to embrace those troubled souls and find the correct help that is needed.
I look at my own family and think that our situation could have gone on much longer and could have gotten much worse if we didn't know the resources available to us. I wonder, too, if there is another problem that arises, will we know where to go? What to do?
I pray we do.
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
I don't have any answers.
It's a situation
playing itself out
over and over in this 'society'
and the gun issue isn't at the center.
Mental health... is.
I posted this time last year sometime
about a neighbor
who I saw crawling into this transom
(the window over the door in old buildings)
and who believed himself to be
a muslim priest.
He had shaved his head and eyebrows
just like the photo of this guy.
It may still be in the archives.
I posted it down in mental health forum.
Point is -
there are no answers that are going to make this ... make sense.
Until we as a people
move out of blame
and into responsibility
nothing is going to get any better.
It's a situation
playing itself out
over and over in this 'society'
and the gun issue isn't at the center.
Mental health... is.
I posted this time last year sometime
about a neighbor
who I saw crawling into this transom
(the window over the door in old buildings)
and who believed himself to be
a muslim priest.
He had shaved his head and eyebrows
just like the photo of this guy.
It may still be in the archives.
I posted it down in mental health forum.
Point is -
there are no answers that are going to make this ... make sense.
Until we as a people
move out of blame
and into responsibility
nothing is going to get any better.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 115
I feel bad for this young man's family. There is nothing they could have done to stop it, nor could they have predicted he would do something so horrible. I find that the way the media is spinning the story by finger pointing toward the right is irresponsible jounalism. This is tragic event and the only one responsible for what happened is the young man who did the shooting. JMHO
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 444
I have a very good friend whose whose son was recently diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. Her journey has been heartbreaking, as he decended into illness right before her eyes. There was (and is) nothing she could do..... nothing. And when we talk I am amazed at her attitude, that she takes one positive from the whole experience, and that is compassion for others, without judgment. We should all be like my friend.
Rising from the Ashes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 451
The justice system in the United States is one of the most unique in the world. Our Constitutional Rights under the Fourth Amendment, prohibits unwarranted searches and seizures by the government; under the Fifth Amendment, protects against self incrimination; under the Sixth Amendment, guarantees a speedy, fair trial before a jury of one's peers; and, under the Eighth Amendment, prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. The defendant is assumed innocent until proven guilty.
I'm not going to respond as to what should or should not be done to Jared Loughner, the obviously deeply troubled young killer. Heck! I'm from the State with a reputation of being the Death Penalty State. The case against Loughner is at an early stage......and with time more facts will come revealed.
However, I can empathize with his parents! Until I walk in "ANOTHER MAN'S SHOES", I don't want to be the first one to start throwing stones at his parents!
Though it cannot be denied that mental illness and violence have a link or a connection at least somewhere, the fact remains that the link is hardly as strong as the link between substance abuse and violence. It is crucial to understand that more of the crimes of violence , that threaten the society and the people today are not caused by people who are mentally ill, but by those who are absolutely normal and can plan their plan actions clearly. An alcoholic or a person under the impact of drugs is far more capable of causing harm to society than the schizophrenic. Generally those suffering from schizophrenia , are in fact far from being violent in nature. Many a times, they are just too depressed and withdrawn from the rest of the world to actually attempt causing harm. It is time that we understand that schizophrenia and violence are two ideas that do not really need to be clubbed together.
Our mental health system is broke!
Just my personal opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Phoenix
I'm not going to respond as to what should or should not be done to Jared Loughner, the obviously deeply troubled young killer. Heck! I'm from the State with a reputation of being the Death Penalty State. The case against Loughner is at an early stage......and with time more facts will come revealed.
However, I can empathize with his parents! Until I walk in "ANOTHER MAN'S SHOES", I don't want to be the first one to start throwing stones at his parents!
Though it cannot be denied that mental illness and violence have a link or a connection at least somewhere, the fact remains that the link is hardly as strong as the link between substance abuse and violence. It is crucial to understand that more of the crimes of violence , that threaten the society and the people today are not caused by people who are mentally ill, but by those who are absolutely normal and can plan their plan actions clearly. An alcoholic or a person under the impact of drugs is far more capable of causing harm to society than the schizophrenic. Generally those suffering from schizophrenia , are in fact far from being violent in nature. Many a times, they are just too depressed and withdrawn from the rest of the world to actually attempt causing harm. It is time that we understand that schizophrenia and violence are two ideas that do not really need to be clubbed together.
Our mental health system is broke!
Just my personal opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Phoenix
Living in a Pinkful Place
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 7,545
I guess I'll jump in here - at the risk of being bombarded with "hate" mail like I usually am when I say something along these lines - because I am against what seems to be the "popular" belief
This was a horrible thing that happened - My heart breaks for ALL those that have lost loved ones, the ones hurt and trying to recover.
my heart breaks for the man that did this - that he was so lost in hate that he had to kill so many to try to solve his problems - my heart especially breaks for his mom and the rest of his family.
My heart breaks for those who would try to blame this on a political woman saying that her words/speech or actions caused this man to do this horrible act.
Oh that anyone person could be so powerful????
Really folks?
If we haven't learned anything in recovery - Haven't we learned that our words are not powerful enough to cause any person to do anything??????
Geez - if we could - how many of us would have spoken our loved ones into sobriety??????????????????
So please all out there who want to say "----- -----" made him do it - if she is so powerful, please ask her to make my daughter stay sober and not relapse anymore??????
just my thoughts - please take what you like and leave the rest!
This was a horrible thing that happened - My heart breaks for ALL those that have lost loved ones, the ones hurt and trying to recover.
my heart breaks for the man that did this - that he was so lost in hate that he had to kill so many to try to solve his problems - my heart especially breaks for his mom and the rest of his family.
My heart breaks for those who would try to blame this on a political woman saying that her words/speech or actions caused this man to do this horrible act.
Oh that anyone person could be so powerful????
Really folks?
If we haven't learned anything in recovery - Haven't we learned that our words are not powerful enough to cause any person to do anything??????
Geez - if we could - how many of us would have spoken our loved ones into sobriety??????????????????
So please all out there who want to say "----- -----" made him do it - if she is so powerful, please ask her to make my daughter stay sober and not relapse anymore??????
just my thoughts - please take what you like and leave the rest!
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Desert Southwest
Posts: 192
As an Arizonan, this is all quite raw for me yet. I live a couple hours from Tucson, but some of my children live there less than a mile from where the incident occurred. I feel like it happened in my backyard.
We don't yet know what motivated the shooter. We only know that he is mentally unstable.
We really don't know all the facts yet despite extensive media coverage. We are still in shock. We are angry, saddened and downright confused.
I am interested in thoroughly understanding what happened and how this thing happened. That's going to take some time.
We don't yet know what motivated the shooter. We only know that he is mentally unstable.
We really don't know all the facts yet despite extensive media coverage. We are still in shock. We are angry, saddened and downright confused.
I am interested in thoroughly understanding what happened and how this thing happened. That's going to take some time.
Rising from the Ashes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 451
"What does any of this have to do with alcoholism?"
I believe I'm seeing our society acting as codependents. I compare our society that is in denial, trying to blame everything but the alcoholic, oh I mean, Jared Loughner. He's the ONE to be accountable for his actions....NOT his spouse, oh I mean, parents or any other person, place or thing. Our society needs to accept this fact!
I must confess that when I first heard, without the facts, about the killing spree, I was hoping it was caused by the Mexican drug cartels. I felt if this tragedy had been caused by the Mexican cartels, maybe, that would be our breaking point and something reasonable would result. Instead we are still trying to make some sense out of this tragedy!......and placing the blame on something else than actually the ONLY apparent person responsible! (This is called projecting our misplaced anger.)
Just my personal opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Phoenix
I believe I'm seeing our society acting as codependents. I compare our society that is in denial, trying to blame everything but the alcoholic, oh I mean, Jared Loughner. He's the ONE to be accountable for his actions....NOT his spouse, oh I mean, parents or any other person, place or thing. Our society needs to accept this fact!
I must confess that when I first heard, without the facts, about the killing spree, I was hoping it was caused by the Mexican drug cartels. I felt if this tragedy had been caused by the Mexican cartels, maybe, that would be our breaking point and something reasonable would result. Instead we are still trying to make some sense out of this tragedy!......and placing the blame on something else than actually the ONLY apparent person responsible! (This is called projecting our misplaced anger.)
Just my personal opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Phoenix
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
I come to SR to read, discuss and share about alcoholism and alcoholics, not people's politics regarding current events. This has nothing to do with codependence. I feel it is inappropriate on F&F.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by Learn2Live 
I come to SR to read, discuss and share about alcoholism and alcoholics, not people's politics regarding current events. This has nothing to do with codependence. I feel it is inappropriate on F&F.
L
Rising from the Ashes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 451
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
"I come to SR to read, discuss and share about alcoholism and alcoholics, not people's politics regarding current events. This has nothing to do with codependence. I feel it is inappropriate on F&F."
Did you hear anything on this thread about politics? I feel this thread is about how a society, as an entity, can react as individual codependents do! Have you ever had to do a book report and do an analysis of that book? Step back......and think about how individuals act with codependency and compare that to how our society is reacting to this tragedy.
Just my personal opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Phoenix
"I come to SR to read, discuss and share about alcoholism and alcoholics, not people's politics regarding current events. This has nothing to do with codependence. I feel it is inappropriate on F&F."
Did you hear anything on this thread about politics? I feel this thread is about how a society, as an entity, can react as individual codependents do! Have you ever had to do a book report and do an analysis of that book? Step back......and think about how individuals act with codependency and compare that to how our society is reacting to this tragedy.
Just my personal opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Phoenix
Skipper
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Texas, USA
Posts: 827
Recovery applicable
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
What does any of this have to do with alcoholism?
1. Live in the real world where bad things may, and do, happen.
2. Use my steps in recovery to help someone else.
Our recovery can be applied to many situations.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,064
I don't really see anything codependent about this. A kid with mental problems had a complete breakdown, he apparently worshiped the dark arts from the news. He won't be rehabbed back into society. It's an interesting off topic story but I am at the risk of people thinking I'm horrible to say this but I'm really already tired of the media overkill on it. Along with the Kardashians.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Yes, Phoenix, your posts mirror the arguments that have occurred on the news since Saturday. I just do not see the connection, am tired of the politics, and don't feel F&F is the right forum for voicing your politics.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Here's what I think about it, through the lens of the spirit of this forum.
Like any event in life, I can use my recovery tools to deal with it. If I don't agree with the way the media or the news is covering it, I can turn off the TV. If I believe that the climate of overly hyperbolic discourse that is going on in this county right now played a part in this tragedy (which I do), I can refrain from participating in such discourse. And that includes watching TV shows and networks that "fan the flames." I can remember that all humans deserve compassion. Not only the victims and their loved ones, but the shooter and his family as well. I can remember that the only person in this world I can change is myself, and if I am unhappy with the way things are going in the world, then I must change my part in it. And, I can resist the urge to blame or find fault because those things do not change anything, least of all me.
L
Like any event in life, I can use my recovery tools to deal with it. If I don't agree with the way the media or the news is covering it, I can turn off the TV. If I believe that the climate of overly hyperbolic discourse that is going on in this county right now played a part in this tragedy (which I do), I can refrain from participating in such discourse. And that includes watching TV shows and networks that "fan the flames." I can remember that all humans deserve compassion. Not only the victims and their loved ones, but the shooter and his family as well. I can remember that the only person in this world I can change is myself, and if I am unhappy with the way things are going in the world, then I must change my part in it. And, I can resist the urge to blame or find fault because those things do not change anything, least of all me.
L
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
Here's what I think about it, through the lens of the spirit of this forum.
Like any event in life, I can use my recovery tools to deal with it. If I don't agree with the way the media or the news is covering it, I can turn off the TV. If I believe that the climate of overly hyperbolic discourse that is going on in this county right now played a part in this tragedy (which I do), I can refrain from participating in such discourse. And that includes NOT watching TV shows and networks that "fan the flames." I can remember that all humans deserve compassion. Not only the victims and their loved ones, but the shooter and his family as well. I can remember that the only person in this world I can change is myself, and if I am unhappy with the way things are going in the world, then I must change my part in it. And, I can resist the urge to blame or find fault because those things do not change anything, least of all me.
L
Like any event in life, I can use my recovery tools to deal with it. If I don't agree with the way the media or the news is covering it, I can turn off the TV. If I believe that the climate of overly hyperbolic discourse that is going on in this county right now played a part in this tragedy (which I do), I can refrain from participating in such discourse. And that includes NOT watching TV shows and networks that "fan the flames." I can remember that all humans deserve compassion. Not only the victims and their loved ones, but the shooter and his family as well. I can remember that the only person in this world I can change is myself, and if I am unhappy with the way things are going in the world, then I must change my part in it. And, I can resist the urge to blame or find fault because those things do not change anything, least of all me.
L
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
