Floss

We call it 'contact' in this country. My ex alcoholic defacto has my daughter at present. The last time he saw her was almost 4 weeks ago. He took her to his mother's house on Sunday. They stayed two nights and are back at his house tonight. He's bringing her home tomorrow.

About a week before Christmas, I recieved a really abusive phone call from the ex. It was hideous...it made Mel's drunken outbursts look tame. Normally I hang up when I hear that he's drinking. That time, I listened to his verbal tirade deliberately because I have the habit of remembering the 'good' times and minimising the hell I went through in a relationship with Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. On Christmas Day, the ex A turned up and he was all sweetness and light that day. He asked me for a hug. I stood there stiff but I let him hug me. He gave me a Christmas card saying "I love you girl."...blah blah blah. This morning I got a pleasant phone call from him whilst he was at his mothers. All sweetness and light again.

Tonight, I rang to see how our daughter is (she's 4) and he seemed strange. I could tell he wasn't drinking but he was edgy. He said he's going to drop her home tomorrow. I noticed he didn't ask when he could see DD again and this stood out because I'm used to him always saying things like, "I'd like to pick her up on such and such a day again" or "It's Summer, I'd like to take her to the beach" etc. I asked when he'd like to see her again. He said he won't be seeing her again for 3 or 4 weeks. I asked why and he said "I've got things to do". I said in a calm way "I've noticed you haven't been seeing her as much lately" And then I copped it. He went on and on saying things like "Why don't you call your father and talk to HIM about it? Why don't you ask him why HE abandoned YOU!" I said "I don't know why you always deflect things onto my dad (btw, my dad is an RA), we're talking about our daughter". Then I copped the F**ks etc. He also said things like he always says when he has the sh*ts like "YOU chose to have her". "You have to live with YOUR choice"...(I fell pregnant with her despite using contraception and he wanted me to have an abortion. I didn't and he's always throwing that in my face saying things like "Don't get me wrong, I love DD. It's just that I wasn't given a choice. And when he's being really nasty he says "I didn't want to have a kid with YOU and all your dysfunction and much much worse that cannot be repeated on here). He then said he doesn't want anything to do with me again. I said to him "that may make it difficult when we're organising contact". He said "I want to see DD. I just don't want to see YOU"...Blah blah blah. Then he hung up and switiched his phone off.

I think the guy is completely nuts. Obviously he does have control over his behaviour as he was sweetness and light in front of his mother this morning and here in front of people on Christmas Day. But, now back on his own turf, he's continuing the abusive crap where he left off.

So, back to DD. I'm wondering whether I drive there now to pick her up? He's switched his phone off and our agreement for contact (between the two of us, not court ordered) is that he needs to be available by phone 24/7 when he has her. Because if he drinks, she cannot be in his care. This is for two reasons. One, it's part of the orders stipulated in the AVO the police took out on him on my behalf. Secondly, my daughter should never have to witness the violent person he becomes when he drinks. She's seen it once, and I was there. She would not survive it on her own. It's 10.30pm here now. Do I hand DD over to HP and hope she's okay tonight and wait for him to drop her off tomorrow?. He wasn't drinking when I spoke to him but he wasn't in a good frame of mind either. Probably going through withdrawls as he hasn't had a drink since Christmas Eve. Or do I go and get her now, which will cause a 'scene' in front of DD because it won't go down to well at all that I'm there on 'his turf'? I'm not sure what to do. I suppose I have to listen to my gut and go from there.

And I'm not sure what to do about future contact either. He treats my daughter really well when he has her, he loves her and he refrains from alcohol when she's in his care. He is stable enough when he's not drinking but is a complete psycho when he's drinking. He is capable of the worst kind of violence in that state. The thing is I'm noticing the Mr Hyde part of his personality is starting to make an appearance (towards me) even when he's not drinking now and I'm starting to question whether it's safe for him to have any contact with our daughter now as I'm worried his Mr Hyde may start to come out towards her too. His mother lives about an hour away from me and she has an alcohol free zone in her home and I know my daughter is safe when my ex takes her there. I'd love to think I could call her and ask her if she'd help faciliate contact in regard to being a neutral drop off and pick up place (at the moment, this is done at my home), but I know she won't agree to that as she and the rest of the family don't want to upset the applecart so to speak and last time I spoke to her, she expressed the fear she has of her son when he drinks. She said that before I came along, she, her husband and A's brother used to cop all the drunken abusive phone calls. Now I get them. She's always said she wants to "stay out of things".

So, what do I do? Do I get the Family Court involved? Do I continue on as I have? Or do I deny all contact between DD and exA until he gets into recovery (which will be never)? My daughter loves her father so much and gets so upset when time goes on and she hasn't seen him. Her heart will be broken if she doesn't see him. In time, I believe he'll fade out of her life anyway as alcohol is the only priority in his life now. He's not working, (lost yet another job), he's got current AVO's in place. One with me and one with his neighbour and he's abusive behaviour towards the neighbours is escalating too. He's going to lose his home soon and it's just a matter of time before he's locked up. My daughter's heart will be broken one day. If he is capable of continuing any contact with her, even though he loves her and believes she's "perfect in every way", I'm sure as soon as she gets older and questions his absence or his alcoholism, he'll discard her as he does with anyone who holds him accountable. He doesn't like to be challenged or told what to do "especially by a woman!" (his father is an A and has passed not only his alcoholism onto his son but his misogyny too).

Some words of wisdom will be appreciated....Thank you in advance.

naive

i don't have any words of wisdom, although i do relate to the A being scary, even if sober. mine was manic when sober, running around in circles.

Pelican

From the information you shared, your actions were placing reasonable expectations onto an active alcoholic. Active alcoholics are not reasonable.

You have expectations of normal scheduled contacts.

Even though you are not living with the A, the relationship isn't normal. I have found it best not to force an A into normal parenting routines. The ones who end up disappointed are the sober ones.

After his holiday, his brain/body is likely screaming for a drunken binge. That is all he can think about right now. Drop of DD and get drunk. Your questions and expectations likely triggered a reaction. He does not want to face the future, just the next binge.

Asking an active alcoholic why? We know the answer.......alcohol is the priority.

Floss

Yes Pelican, I agree. When I first wrote my post, I wrote "I stupidly asked when" and "stupidly asked why". I deleted the 'stupidly'. Stupidly because I should have known better not to ask such questions. Stupidly because obviously to the A, I'm the stupid one 'expecting' anything from him. Stupid because I think he can behave like a rational human being and answer a simple question. Stupid because I'm expecting something out of him he's unable to give. How sad is it that all he and other chronic late stage active A's can think about is getting the next 'hit'? He doesn't want to think about the future. He doesn't want to think at all. He has become a receptacle for alcohol and a receptacle that is never full. It's true, it's his only priority now; his only reason for living a slow, painful death....Too sad but I cannot keep feeling sorry for him. It keeps me stuck in the Twilight Zone and I need to get out.

Pelican

(((Floss)))

You are not stupid.

I see a loving mom. An intelligent lady. A brilliant mind. A heart filled with hope for a peaceful future.

Hugs to you and DD and you reunite today!

Floss

Thanks Pelican, you brought tears to my eyes. And yes, it's 12.31am, and when I wake up in the morning, my little Petal will be back! Yay! X

Thumper

My xah is not safe when he is drinking to much because he passes out etc. If he isn't drinking I worry even more because he is a pacing, very irritable, distracted, unfocused, unable to sleep, ball of intense anxiety even if he drinks 'just enough' to keep away complete withdrawl. He's consumed by that anxiety (or whatever it is) and is unable to parent the kids then and it would also scare them.

So - when he was here and saw them I had zero expectations. He often cancelled - I'm sure he was drinking. He almost always brought them back home early and I know that was because he wanted/needed to drink. It is the reason I never 'forced' visitation or argued with him about bringing them home early. They almost always stay over with him just one night (and often he'd request just day visits) and at the most two nights - ie from late Friday to Sunday morning. He's never asked to have them longer but I would not have allowed it. Maybe shorter visits are better in your situation?

He's not here right now but from what I can tell things have gotten a step worse. I will have to re-evaluate if he can have them overnight when he returns next month.

My xah is not abusive like you describe and I appreciate that it makes a huge difference but I try very hard to keep my side of the contact positive, zero pressure, never accusing, gentle when he returns them early, because if I do he is more likely to make the choice to keep the kids safe then keep them just to 'show me' so to speak. I know there is some amount of 'using' me and returning them early etc just to make sure I can't make plans. I do a great deal of biting my tongue to keep from saying what I think but I have chose to live with it because I can't live with the other (not feeling the kids were safe) and I haven't decided that no contact at all is best yet either. It is what it is.

laurie6781

Yes, definitely, the sooner the better. Practicing A's are notoriously for 'changing the rules' of an agreement anytime they want too.

Protect your daughter, yes she lovers her daddy, but as his actions are escalating, she will hear it, and sense the tension, even if she doesn't totally understand it.

Besides, once a 'schedule' is set up by the court, and hopefully you can get 'supervised' visitation and he misses a visit he will have to wait until the 'next scheduled visit' and you are out of it. The Court will have said when and where he can have visits. Helps to protect both you and your daughter.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

theuncertainty

Hugs, Floss, to you and your Petal. Your post sounds so familiar.

I used to hold my breath until XAH drank enough to pass out. Before he reached that stage he was a right s--thead; fights, harrassment and accusations were much more likely until he passed out. Then I waited to see if he'd had enough to stay passed out.

When DS and I left him, he was very sporadic in visiting DS. I swear sometimes he forgot he had a son. He only starting turning up more often after he moved in with his GF. He still refused to set any kind of schedule and thought that I should drop whatever I had planned at the drop of a hat just so he could show off that he's a good dad to the GF. It didn't even matter when I pointed out that GF's kids went to their dad's house on a set schedule.

I started the divorce proceedings and requested a protective order (DVPO). As part of the DVPO hearing they set an interim visitation schedule with his sister and dad to supervise. I thought that would help and it did for a while, but then he went right back to not going by the schedule. He was late or early picking up or dropping off, he cancelled because his sister and dad both had to work and couldn't supervise (his dad is 80 years old and retired). At the final hearing, the judge added GF as a visit supervisor and told her she's the canary in the mine.

I've got a lovely little journal going of missed or cancelled visits, strongly suspected drinking..... I really, really, really wish I didn't have to do this. I want to have a normal co-parenting relationship; I really want DS to have a normal, steady, consistent and safe relationship with his dad.

The expectations get me every time. I'm not going to get what I want from XAH. And I'm finding I can do nothing about the steadiness and consistency. The safey - I can only document concerns (relapse in drinking....) for the time being and hope GF is reliable.

DS is hurt by his father's inability to follow through on promises. I've had to crawl under the bed to get him several times when his dad no-showed. All I can do is let him know I understand it hurts and be there when he's ready for hugs. I let him know he has every right to be mad and I let him express that anger. Seeing him struggle with this sucks.

The court helped set some rules that made it slightly easier for his visit-supervisors to understand what their responsibilities are. I think, the sooner the court is involved, the more direct record they have of the A's behavior. (Rather than just hearsay, which the court called my testimony since it was never documented in legal channels.)

Best wishes, Floss. Sorry this is so long.

naive

aye, i'm wondering if shorter visits might better serve both of you?

that's some great advice from thumper...

naive

HoopNinja

I agree--they change things to suit them. Lately I have been rolling with the punches because the kids do want to see him. He has been the king of histrionics over the holiday because he was "sick and alone", " distraught and unable to even think about the celebrating the holidays because it is so heartbreaking it is unimaginable". Can you see him holding his hand up to his head-oh woe is me. I did not touch that puppy with a 10 foot pole.

I had called to see if he was taking his visitation on Christmas Day since that is what the court had ordered for this year and he just told me he was so sick. Did not go into that either (or why he was sick or even if he was sick to suck it up--his kids wanted to see him on Christmas, even if for a few hours). So he was supposed to take the kids Monday and Tuesday since they have school off (and I have very little leave time left at work). So he called Monday and said he was still too sick and distraught to take them and started to cry. I hung up. I texted him last night-are you taking the kids tomorrow night and what time because they will be at my sister's so I can go to work.

This is what I see going through his mind -damn--I cannot **** this woman off anymore. I have taken everything I can from her and she is not angry. I am trying my hardest to pi** her off by making sure I don't take the kids when I say I will and thus assuring she will not have enough money and she found away around it Poor man. I have gotten so good at hanging up as soon as he starts quacking and just not responding to the email quacking I surprise myself sometimes.

I think Pelican is right--he can barely hold it together to keep her as long as he has. Will the courts be useful when trying to change contact. What do you need to do for the changes to be made?

Sorry you are going through this. Must be something in the air. xah is back to his usual self. When I dropped the kids off this morning he sent older DS back out with a bag--of thier dirty laundry.

A friend asked me why he does what he does. All I could say is--he's an alcoholic. He has lost his codpendent and he is angry.

Can't wait to hear DD is back home and happy with you!

Floss

Thanks Thumper. Yes, I think shorter visits will start to happen and I think the ex A will request shorter visits anyway, as like your xah, his drinking/behaviour is escalating. I'm also at the place where I don't want to stop contact, but I think in time it will stop anyway because he doesn't want to seek help or recovery. He has, in his life, only made half-hearted attempts to give up drinking. I think he's self medicating for an underlying mental illness but that's another post.

Laurie, thanks for your reply. I've been thinking about the Family Court, and I've come to the conclusion that my ex would be a no show there if there were any proceedings. I truly think there will come a day when his drinking is so bad, he won't be able to have her again. Right now, he drinks 24/7 except when he passes out, only to get back up again and drink. The only days of no drinking he's had in the last month were the few days over Christmas. He is out of control, and blaming everyone. I also understand what you mean about my daughter picking up the tension even if he's not verbalising it. That worries me, especially when he's withdrawing/craving for a drink.

Hi Uncertainty. Thanks for your reply. Like your situation with your ex, mine wouldn't stick to any type of schedule. He's way too unreliable. And there is no-one else in his life who will hold his hand and take up the slack...I really want a normal co-parenting arrangement too! But normal we will not have with our ex A's. And our kids are so young. We've got a long way to go. That's so sad about your son crawling under the bed after no-shows from his dad. I told my ex never to tell her when he's planning on seeing her next as there have been numerous times he's been a no -show too and this has devastated DD. She's better off knowing he's coming when he shows up on the doorstep. Good luck and best wishes with your situation too Uncertainty.

Hi HoopNinja. I did get the visual affects of your exAH's dramatics over Christmas, lol. I don't know if I would cope with my ex doing the crying act. Like you, I was good at hanging up on the ex's quacking and ignoring the face to face quacking, but I got sucked in again by the 'nice' side of him a while ago, which I also know is quacking...Right, I need to get back on the wagon and get tough again and visualise that duck when I hear him speak. That works well for me. Hoop, I don't have any Court Orders for contact, so it's an agreement between the ex and I. He asks and I agree. Maybe I should keep it that way so that I have more control over when he sees her and I can make my own judgements as to if or when he's safe to see her. This would save me having to keep going back to court when problems in contact occur. I think shorter contact will be better for everyone. Three nights was way too long for him this time.

Yes, I think it is in the air. And what is with the dirty laundry thing? My exADFH (the one I'm talking about here) doesn't do that, but my exAH used to do that. And yes, you're right about them being angry...they've lost their codependent, or in the case of my exAH, he lost his Narcissistic supply... Hoop, I hope you and your kids had a great Christmas regardless of the antics of their father...

So, yes, back to DD. She came home today at 5pm, not the morning. Her dad took her to the beach. She got sunburnt, but I didn't say anything. Usually he's pretty good at putting the sunblock on. She seemed happy enough and today when he left, she didn't cry. That was really good to see. In the past she's thrown herself at the doorstep and cried for one to two hours. She used to run down the street after him too. Poor little thing. She went from having a dad full time (he was living with us and not drinking for almost 2 years), to him falling off the wagon and out of her life except for contact. She's been very happy all evening, playing with her toys and her big sister. She's a beautful little girl.

When her dad dropped her off, he was very abrupt with me and started going on with crap near the front door. I just turned my back, walked inside, said goodbye and closed the door. He's in a really bad place and wanted to take his misery out on me.

Thanks for all your support everyone. I really appreciate it...

HoopNinja

Floss I am happy to see the change in your DD. I think our kids start getting the hang of living in 2 households (and probably knowing full well which one is stable).

I am happy to can hear quacking (even if it is "nice" quacking). That nice quacking can turn nasty simply by one misplaced word for xah. Good job justy turning around and closing the door. Why subject yourself to any of that.

JenT1968

hey floss, didn't post before, because your situation, this situation was the biggest, biggest fear I had driving me to stay with xAH at the end, and still unsettles me. I could keep them safe if I was there but what if he got unsupervised overnights? I didn't know if I had it in me to be strong enough to stand up to his attacks and manipulation in order to limit the access within safe limits. But I have.

My ex also drinks 24/7 except mostly not at work (monday morning eye-openers a usual, sometimes stretching to tues-wed....). and was capable of passing out 3x in a day, even when having the kids in his care - which in the last years was never. I remember lying in bed for hours, hearing the TV blaring at 2am, wondering if now was safe to tiptoe downstairs to where he was passed out on the kitchen floor, to turn it down so that we could sleep but not to rouse him for another drunken rage and more drinking: happy days.

but I digress. Our children love xAH and he loves them. He is incapable of turning that feeling of love into the stable expression and demonstration of love that children need, specifically if that intereferes with or threatens his drinking.

Our current arrangement is that he can have the children unsupervised for a couple of hours, IF he passes a breathalyser administered by me (yep, beer police etc, no it isn't comfortable for either of us, yes he could and probably does drink straight after, but he is in my current estimation very unlikely to white knuckle it through the day not drinking and then down enough to make him dangerous within the 2 hours he has them, I may change my thinking on this if/when patterns change). He has an open invite to have the children for longer and/or overnight if supervised by a) his parents or b) his brother/sister-in-law. He has taken up the latter offer twice. The first time he kept our son at his for hours after his parents had left, and then told me about it to prove he was safe to look after him (thereby only actually proving that he was untrustworthy and couldn't keep to an agreement). This led to me changing that agreement meaning that I would drop off and pick up the kids at his parents home, and not rely on him to escort them. The second time his parents arranged this, we arrived at 10 am, he arrived at 6.15pm 30mins before I was due to take them home. So we won't bother with that arrangement again, or if we do, I'll prep the kids that they are visiting granny and if dad turns up its a bonus for them, and they are not waiting all day for the unreliable **** to arrive.

The unsupervised visits haven't happened for months, because he cancels them, knowing that he won't pass the breathalyser. The default that I live with for the moment is that he comes to our home and visits the children for a couple of hours every sunday. I am in a fairly tricky legal position because he has 24/7 access rights to the former marital home until the divorce is finalised and we've sorted out the finances - hopefully in the next couple of months. I have become stronger in not accepting late arrivals and enforcing him leaving at a reasonable time, not allowing him to act disrespectfully towards me/call me names etc, or go through my things in these visits, but I feel I tread a very difficult line, because he has been violent in the past. However, I have a right to a family life and privacy under EU law, so it's a complicated balance. I am getting stronger and more confident that I can enforce boundaries, and am fully prepared to use the law to back that up. He drinks "in secret" during the visits, boxing day passing out on the toilet, so it's far from ideal. I'm taking advice from my lawyer on how far I can go with excluding someone who has been drinking from my home.

I want my children to have a relationship with their father (although I won't force one) but it has to be safe for me and them.

document, document, document, and get legal advice on what your local court is likely to decide re visitation. let us know how this develops (()).

Floss

Wow JenT, you've gone through/going through a lot. I love the idea of the breathalyser. Think I may have to invest in one of them! I don't know how it will go down with the ex though!...My ex takes our daughter to his mum's place a lot when he has her. I know she's safe there. I've had my ex here for visits too. I find that emotionally very hard. It sounds as though you've got really good boundaries although I understand what you mean about having to tread a difficult line. In a way, I'm 'lucky' I have a current AVO in which my ex cannot come near me or anyone I have a domestic relationship with (my kids) within 12 hours of consuming alcohol. Maybe when you go back to the lawyer, they could include Orders for contact stipulating something similar?

One thing I haven't been doing is documenting. After reading what you wrote, I've decided I need to do this. I think the reason I haven't up until now, is because I find it emotionally very hard to go through it all again and put it in writing, but that's something I'm going to have to deal with and start doing.

Thank you for sharing your experiences JT. I really appreciate it. Once I've documented a pattern, I'll go and see a lawyer. At least to get some idea of how to proceed legally, if that's in my daughter's best interests (because my ex would never apply to the court for contact). In any case, some sort of legal guideline will be necessary once the AVO runs out, because right now, I think he's scared enough of gaol, to not drink around her...I think. And he also knows I will call the police if he does. Once the AVO runs out, he won't have the 'threat' of gaol hanging over his head. Okay, now to start documenting! Thanks again and all the best to you and your kids..Let us know how you go with your lawyer and excluding someone who's been drinking...