Blogs


Notices

Can I FORCE my AW to quit?

Old 12-14-2010, 08:43 AM
  # 1 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 10
Can I FORCE my AW to quit?

Hi,
I'm new at the forum - and would welcome your comments
My wife drinks half a bottle to a bottle of hard liquor almost every day – much of it during the morning and early afternoon when she is alone at home. She’s built a high tolerance and manages to function reasonably OK while drunk. She takes care of the kids (4 and 5 y.o.) when they return from day care, cooks, cleans the house, and occasionally makes a sporadic effort to find a job. She is a good person, but clearly in a self destructive spiral and half the person she could have been.
We talk about her problem from time to time. She knows and readily admits that she is an Alcoholic, and often promises to control it – but only to continue as usual the next day. She did go to AA a couple times (but says she didn’t like it) and managed to stay dry for a several days on a few occasions – but then reverts back to old habits.
So far I’ve only tried soft persuasion in all its forms, with at most non-specific comments like “if you don’t quit – we’ll end up divorcing”.
Now, after 2-3 years of this, and with the children soon to catch on (BTW – at what age would they understand that mommy has a problem?), I believe that I am not doing her any favor by not coming on stronger.
I’m thinking of giving her a hard choice:
“Either we divorce now OR you let me essentially control your life until YOU regain control”
The second option would mean that
I would take away her bank card – so she will not have the ready cash to buy the booze
I would bring a breathalyzer home and monitor her. I she fails the test I would impose a “punishment” (for example – demand that she then and there do some unpleasant chore around the house).
I would provide an activity schedule for her to do every day, and call home several times a day to make sure she does what I asked her to do (e.g. for example – spend a solid couple hours on the internet to look for work, or spend sober quality time with the children).
Now here is where I’d like your comments – obviously, my demands would be controlling and unreasonable under normal circumstances. But given the current situation – would I be out of line taking control of her life? Would it likely to succed?
Rhode is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Rhode For This Useful Post:
Sean718 (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 08:52 AM
  # 2 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 619
Wow, I am sorry that you are going through this, especially with young children to take care of.

It's great that you have found us, and wiser folks than I will be along soon. Read the stickies at the top of the forum...very helpful. Reading the AA Big Book was helpful for me too in understanding the disease that is Alcoholism.

We did not CAUSE it...
We cannot CONTROL it...
We cannot CURE it...

The only thing we have any control over is ourselves. Most of us here thought we could influence our A's drinking...we bargained, we begged, we yelled...mostly we made ourselves crazy...literally. But none of us can change the drinking habits of an A, nothing but their own desire to change.

Stay, read, post. SR has changed my life for the better. And I hope we can help you too
seekingcalm is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to seekingcalm For This Useful Post:
HoopNinja (12-14-2010), Kmber2010 (12-18-2010), laurie6781 (12-14-2010), NoelleR (12-19-2010), skippernlilg (12-16-2010), steve11694 (12-19-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 08:55 AM
  # 3 (permalink)  
Just livin' the dream
 
suki44883's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 30,004
You are not her parent, she is not a child, and you cannot force her to quit drinking. You don't have that right. She is an adult and if she chooses to drink, then that is her business. If you want to control something, why not control your own actions and either remove yourself and your children from the situation, or give her a choice of getting help or getting out? There are many options rather than attempting to force your will on another adult.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but your post kind of upset me. I have a problem with control freaks as I was once married to one.
suki44883 is offline  
The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to suki44883 For This Useful Post:
craven (12-14-2010), crystal226 (12-14-2010), flutter (12-14-2010), Hadassah (12-15-2010), highfunction (12-15-2010), jackien41 (12-14-2010), Kmber2010 (12-18-2010), kudzujean (12-14-2010), laurie6781 (12-14-2010), Leise (12-14-2010), LosingmyMisery (12-14-2010), LS2 (12-15-2010), NoelleR (12-19-2010), OpenYourEyes (12-14-2010), Redheadsusie (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 08:56 AM
  # 4 (permalink)  
Member
 
Redheadsusie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 598
You can only control yourself. Period. Sending you peace.
Redheadsusie is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Redheadsusie For This Useful Post:
naive (12-14-2010), skippernlilg (12-16-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 09:06 AM
  # 5 (permalink)  
Member
 
catlovermi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,294
You cannot force her to quit. If we could, nobody would be here, on this board.

On the other hand, you need not enable her drinking in any way.

Enabling, in a nutshell, is to do for another adult what they should be able to do for themselves. It is anything that supports, directly, or indirectly, her drinking, or her escape from HER consequences from her drinking.

If she wants to drink, she should provide herself the money, transportation, location, (reliable) childcare and other things she "needs" to drink, apart from your home and children. If she is not able to provide herself these things, to continue drinking, you need not take it on as your problem, with the exception of keeping the children safe. (Keep in mind, though, that if she is legally married to you, and drives drunk, and gets sued for any reason, you are legally liable as her spouse for the expenses she incurs.)

And finally, the children need your protection, above all else. She is utterly unreliable, drinking actively, whether she "looks" functional, or not.

Your choice is whether you want an active, unreliable alcoholic in your household, and near your children. You have choices about that.

Welcome to SR, keep coming back! As you read around, you will learn many things.

CLMI
catlovermi is offline  
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to catlovermi For This Useful Post:
Bernadette (12-15-2010), crystal226 (12-14-2010), HoopNinja (12-14-2010), Jazzman (12-14-2010), least (12-15-2010), naive (12-14-2010), NoelleR (12-19-2010), OpenYourEyes (12-14-2010), steve11694 (12-19-2010), Thumper (12-14-2010), transformyself (12-14-2010), yorkiegirl (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 09:43 AM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Member
 
nodaybut2day's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Quebec
Posts: 2,708
Hold on...she cares for the children after having drunk half a bottle of hard liquor? This is dangerous. Your children could become injured. I wonder if this couldn't be grounds for CPS to remove the children from the home...

IMO, your priority needs to be safeguarding your children against an adult who clearly has no control or no desire to control her addiction. If I were you, I would find alternate childcare for your children when they come home from school (perhaps a mother's helper to go pick them up at the bus stop and supervise homework until you get home).

I would also consult a lawyer ASAP about what you could expect with regards to custody and separation. As nice and lovely as your AW (alcoholic wife) is, she is also an addict who isn't in recovery. You could have grounds for obtaining sole custody with supervised visitation for your AW, until she has been in recovery for at least a year.

I agree with catlovermi that you can take steps to stop enabling her to drink, but as previous posters have mentioned, you do not control this woman and you never will. Giving her ultimatums will most likely result in drama, accusations, tears, etc. Focus on the one thing you CAN control: yourself. What do you want in your life? What are you willing to live with and what aren't you willing to live with?

I do hope you keep posting and reading. SR is always open.
nodaybut2day is offline  
The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to nodaybut2day For This Useful Post:
Bernadette (12-15-2010), bookwyrm (12-14-2010), flutter (12-14-2010), HoopNinja (12-14-2010), Kmber2010 (12-18-2010), kudzujean (12-14-2010), laurie6781 (12-14-2010), Leise (12-14-2010), LS2 (12-15-2010), NoelleR (12-19-2010), OpenYourEyes (12-14-2010), skippernlilg (12-16-2010), steve11694 (12-19-2010), wicked (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 09:59 AM
  # 7 (permalink)  
DMC
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 302
As with the others, unfortunately, there isn't a damn thing you can do.

I tried just about all the things on your list. (Well, most of them.) I'd be willing to bet that most everyone here has. They don't work. While a non-addict sees the rationale, the addict won't. So don't waste your time and energy.

Pull up a chair and stay awhile. Read, and learn, and welcome to our sad fellowship. (Well, only sad for some. I left my alcoholic husband, and life is SO much better for me.)

Good luck
D
DMC is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to DMC For This Useful Post:
OpenYourEyes (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 10:02 AM
  # 8 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: ozarks
Posts: 85
Hey man,
You’ve really only got two choices in your situation;
1) Put up with her behavior.
2) Don’t put up with her behavior.

I tried to get my wife to quit…didn’t work.
I filed for divorce and got my son out of the situation.

Good luck and as others have said, take care of your kids!
hurtandangry is offline  
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to hurtandangry For This Useful Post:
Bernadette (12-15-2010), catlovermi (12-14-2010), coyote21 (12-14-2010), craven (12-14-2010), HoopNinja (12-14-2010), Jazzman (12-14-2010), Live (12-14-2010), LosingmyMisery (12-14-2010), OpenYourEyes (12-14-2010), SarahG (12-14-2010), SlvrMag (12-16-2010), vujade (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 10:03 AM
  # 9 (permalink)  
Member
 
catlovermi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,294
It might be clearer to pose this question differently.

If your wife were a complete stranger:

Would you try to keep this stranger in your household and control this stranger's life in these ways, or remove this stranger from your vicinity while they behaved in such a manner?

Would you give this stranger access to the inside of your home, your bank accounts, your children, knowing they are chugging hard liquor?

Would you hire this stranger to babysit? Drive your children around?

Would you co-sign a loan to this stranger? Extend them onto your auto insurance?

Would you invite them to live in your spare room, on the chance they would change?

***************

Food for thought.

CLMI
catlovermi is offline  
The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to catlovermi For This Useful Post:
Bernadette (12-15-2010), flutter (12-14-2010), HoopNinja (12-14-2010), least (12-15-2010), Live (12-14-2010), LS2 (12-15-2010), nodaybut2day (12-14-2010), skippernlilg (12-16-2010), SlvrMag (12-16-2010), stilllearning (12-15-2010), vujade (12-14-2010), wicked (12-14-2010), yorkiegirl (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 10:17 AM
  # 10 (permalink)  
Member
 
Thumper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,444
You can not control another person like that. It is logistically impossible and not respectful or functional - and we've all been there with trying to control our loved one's drinking to various degrees. It makes for a really crazy life and it simply does not work.

I can be a control freak and when things are out of control I tend to try and control even more - a terrible cycle with all sorts of negative repercussions - but it doesn't work because I'm attempting to control the wrong thing. I can control myself. My decisions, my choices, my actions. I can determine what I will live with, what I will accept in my life and for my family, and what my response will be to various things. Then I add to that reality (not my dreams of what could be) and the courage to act accordingly. I spent many years trying to control the wrong things with the wrong focus and being to afraid to act because I couldn't predict the outcome (form of control).

When I quit denying the problem and when my life became completely unmanagable I began to learn about alcoholism, enabling and co-dependence. I began to learn about my choices and define my boundaries. There are a lot of stickies at the top of the forum that I found really helpful when figuring those things out.

You can take the time to figure these things out. You don't have to know the end answer in order to take the next step. You just have to know your boundaries, focus your priorities (which are hopefully yourself and your children), and do the next right thing.

Consider some kind of childcare arrangements when you aren't home. I have young children too and I finally had to do that and I should have done it earlier.
Thumper is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Thumper For This Useful Post:
catlovermi (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 10:28 AM
  # 11 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: England
Posts: 741
Why would you want to do that to yourself? Trying to control someone else is crazy making and exhausting. All that checking up on, imposing punishments?! Your wife has an addiction, she is not a criminal or a child.

You can choose to be around her or not. You can't force her to stop. She might go along with it for a while to please you but that isn't recovery.
Tally is offline  
Old 12-14-2010, 10:31 AM
  # 12 (permalink)  
Member
 
JenT1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
Blog Entries: 1
welcome!

as others have said it appears not, many of us have tried repeatedly LOL, before accepting defeat.

I know you are desperate, becasue I was desperate and I recognise myself in your post, trying to think of solutions to a crazy situations. but really, how would it play out even if you could force her to stop drinking; her resenting you for controlling her and taking away her choices, eventually hating you? you exhausted with the effort of it, with the worry? would she find sneaky ways of drinking anyway? It is unlikely you'd be able to police her every moment without becoming her jailor and how would you feel about yourself in this situation? not a relationship I'd want.

I wanted him to stop drinking, man up, stop the erratic and abusive behaviour, become reliable, take responsibility etc etc AND be happy about it. Tall order.

that doesn't mean you have to continue as things are, and if you are ready to share with her that unless she choses to become sober you won't continue with the relationship, and are fully prepared to carry through with that, then there is no reason to delay. If some thinking time for yourself is in order so thst you can be fully prepared for any action, then getting yourself some support, al anon or a therapist are good options. A priority would probably be to organise alternative childcare and start shoring up, and if possible seperating your finances, so that no matter what the outcome you are prepared.
JenT1968 is offline  
Old 12-14-2010, 10:34 AM
  # 13 (permalink)  
Member
 
lillamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,523
I have been in your situation and wished I could force my alcoholic husband to stop drinking, too. I understand the wish. I really do.

I agree with everyone else -- you can't. Even if you were able to force her to stop drinking, at what price would that come? What would it do to your relationship? If she doesn't quit drinking by her own choice, she hasn't really quit drinking, if you get what I mean. It's like a pastor of mine said once -- anyone who can be talked into the kingdom of God can be talked out of it. Any real life change has to come from within.

I can hear the love you have for this woman. I can also hear the desperation in your voice. You want the wife back that you married. And you're willing to take extreme measures to get that. But forcing her to quit drinking wouldn't give you that. It would give you a resentful wife that can't drink anymore because her husband is watching her every step. It would alter the balance in your relationship, and not in a good way.

What I found out the hard way with my alcoholic ex-husband was that he didn't hear me all those times when I said, "if you don't get treatment for your alcoholism, I will leave you." Because he had heard it so many times, and I didn't take action. And when I finally did, he was at a loss, and told God and everybody that he had no clue why I left -- really, our marriage was completely and utterly idyllic.

You have the right to live your life without alcohol abuse in it. And so do your kids. You don't need to protect your kids from the truth that their mother has a problem. You have the right to say to her: "I will not live with alcohol abuse in my home anymore." You have the right to give her a timeline, and say, "I will give you until the end of January to either get yourself into treatment or find yourself an apartment."

That is not controlling her actions. That is controlling your surroundings.

And I second the part about looking into Al-Anon for yourself. Living with an actively drinking alcoholic does a number on you. Lots of love to you and those kids.
lillamy is offline  
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to lillamy For This Useful Post:
catlovermi (12-14-2010), coyote21 (12-14-2010), Eight Ball (12-14-2010), least (12-15-2010), OpenYourEyes (12-14-2010), RollTide (12-14-2010), seekingcalm (12-14-2010), stilllearning (12-15-2010), Thumper (12-14-2010), transformyself (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 10:42 AM
  # 14 (permalink)  
I Love Who I Am
 
transformyself's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
Blog Entries: 2
Hi there
I"m glad you're here.
Now here is where I’d like your comments – obviously, my demands would be controlling and unreasonable under normal circumstances. But given the current situation – would I be out of line taking control of her life? Would it likely to succed?
This is great, you're asking all the right questions. I'm guessing you don't know a lot about alcoholism, or codependency, but there are "stickies" up at the top of the page when you first get here that are FULL of very very helpful information.

Amazing things can happen when we focus on ourselves and take care of what we actually have control over: ourselves and our children. I was obsessed with my husbands drinking when I came here, and now live a very full, happy life while he drinks. Not my business anymore, actually, other than how it affects my kids, and what a relief!

Welcome!
transformyself is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to transformyself For This Useful Post:
Eight Ball (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 11:27 AM
  # 15 (permalink)  
Member
 
Sean718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 24
Boy do I understand where you're comming from. I'm greatful I don't have kiddos to worry about now.

So here goes: I was in hell trying to control my wife's drinking. I tried everything to get her to quit. You name it, I've done it. IT HAD NO EFFECT, except to **** me off because MY SOLUTIONS DID NOT WORK! Nice or heavy handed, it DOESN"T MATTER. Alcoholism is a disease. Until your wife is ready to face it, nothing is going to help.

You write about giving her a choice, she has made a choice to continue drinking and not seek help. Let her face the consiquences of her actions. She is an adult. I would urge you to let her have the dignity to make her own decisions, not that you have to support them nor deal with the consiquences of her actions.

Now, for you: Take care of your kids & YOURSELF. That's the bottom line. Do what you need to-one day at a time. Check into Al-Anon. It has helped me!

Only you can decide how much you are willing to put up with. I've had enough fighting & resentments. I can stand it no longer & I'm taking the steps I need to. As much as I love my wife, it means divorce. In my situation, I'm preventing her form the full consiquences of her actions, and hitting her bottom.
Sean718 is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Sean718 For This Useful Post:
canuckch (12-15-2010), coyote21 (12-14-2010), HoopNinja (12-14-2010), transformyself (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 11:35 AM
  # 16 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 10
Thank you all for your answers. There seem to be unanimity that what I’m contemplating is the wrong way to go. The thought process that led me to this idea centered around the fact that I would be doing something good for HER by being hard on her. That by my being forgiving –I wasn’t doing her any favor.
I don’t want to tell her “Get out!” because it will go to the core of her fears of abandonment. I want to give her a sense that I’m here for her if she tries to quit.
And with respect to the children – they love her, and she loves them. The drinking affects her into being more irritable, more tired, less attentive to the kids, an occasional burst of anger. But she is not an abusive parent in the more typical sense of the word. And I may not be objective because they are my children – but I think they are growing well and happy and I’m proud of their achievements. They are almost always jovial and boisterous and have no behavior problems that can be attributed to their mom being an alcoholic.
Rhode is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Rhode For This Useful Post:
transformyself (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 11:52 AM
  # 17 (permalink)  
Member
 
nodaybut2day's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Quebec
Posts: 2,708
Rhode, I would gently suggest that you check out the ACOA board (Adult Children of Alcoholics) and broach the topic of what it was like growing up with an alcoholic parent, whether they were "abusive" or not. I'd venture to say that however jovial the A parent was, there were *always* repercussions.

Sorry to burst your bubble here, but this is a sensitive point for me. I coparented my XAH (ex alcoholic husband)'s son, from the age of 6 to the age of 12. I saw what effect his father's addiction had on him, and once my daughter was born, I came to realize that she would become like her brother if I didn't do something. So I left and took her with me.
nodaybut2day is offline  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to nodaybut2day For This Useful Post:
alwaysthinking2 (12-14-2010), coyote21 (12-14-2010), Eight Ball (12-14-2010), HoopNinja (12-14-2010), least (12-15-2010), OpenYourEyes (12-14-2010), SarahG (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 11:53 AM
  # 18 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 10
Catloveme suggested
"If she wants to drink, she should provide herself the money, transportation, location, (reliable) childcare and other things she "needs" to drink, apart from your home and children. If she is not able to provide herself these things, to continue drinking, you need not take it on as your problem, with the exception of keeping the children safe."

How would you do it technically? Separate our bank accounts? She has no separate income - so I'd have to give her money -but then she would still use it to buy the drink.
And about letting her fall on her but and face the consequences - I don't know how to do it without it being me that in the end takes the brunt. For example if the health insurance company learns she is an alcoholic and she looses coverage - it becomes MY problem as the bread earner.
And I can't just let her fall. She is the mother of our children.
Rhode is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Rhode For This Useful Post:
transformyself (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 12:02 PM
  # 19 (permalink)  
Awakening
 
coyote21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by suki44883 View Post
Sorry to sound so harsh, but your post kind of upset me. I have a problem with control freaks as I was once married to one.
Well, that does sound pretty harsh. Sounds like control triggers you.

I'd be willing to bet that under "normal" circumstances Rhode wouldn't even consider such measures. After all, he is only "considering" them, he hasn't acted on them.

I'd be willing to bet many of us married to alcoholics have "at least" considered insane ways to cope with, well....the insanity. I know I have.

I'm triggered when some poor guy comes on here and is judged harshly and even labeled a control freak, for responding poorly to living with insanity, and "considering" what many of both genders on here have done under similar circumstances.

I like you Suki, I've just seen men who really, really needed this forum never post again from getting their ba!!s busted right out of the chute.

I probably should learn not to respond to posts that trigger me!

MOST of the time I don't. Progress not perfection.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
coyote21 is offline  
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to coyote21 For This Useful Post:
canuckch (12-15-2010), Eight Ball (12-14-2010), LucyA (12-14-2010), OpenYourEyes (12-14-2010), Phoenixthebird (12-14-2010), Rhode (12-14-2010), SarahG (12-14-2010), Sean718 (12-14-2010), strawberryfair (12-15-2010), tjp613 (12-14-2010)
Old 12-14-2010, 12:07 PM
  # 20 (permalink)  
Member
 
lillamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,523
I don’t want to tell her “Get out!” because it will go to the core of her fears of abandonment.
My ex had the same fears. It was probably the most common conversation we had when he was drunk: how people always leave him, don't like him, don't understand him, and how I was the only one that did. In my marriage, that was what kept me there -- how could I leave a man who only had me in the whole universe.

I think it's a pretty common "tactic" (conscious or not) with alcoholics, to refer to how "you're probably going to abandon me, too, just like everyone else" -- that way, they remove the focus from their behavior and tries to place it on yours. That way, they don't have to take responsibility for their behavior as the cause of you leaving -- you're just doing what everyone has always done to them throughout their lives.

They are almost always jovial and boisterous and have no behavior problems that can be attributed to their mom being an alcoholic.
Just one word of warning here: My children didn't seem to have any problems either while we were living with an active alcoholic. Since I left, two of them have been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder -- a very common diagnosis for children of alcoholics. As long as we were living with my ex, they were reining themselves in out of fear -- he was loving and abusive in an unpredictable pattern, and they learned to walk on eggshells so as not to set him off. Do you know what happens when you are not at home?

I can't just let her fall. She is the mother of our children.
Most alcoholics don't decide to get help until they hit rock bottom. What that means is different things for different people. For my ex, losing his job didn't do it. It took my leaving for him to decide that he wanted to get sober. You can't love an alcoholic out of their disease any more than you can love a diabetic out of their wildly swinging blood sugars. As much as we all want to. It is her problem, that she has to choose to deal with.
lillamy is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to lillamy For This Useful Post:
alwaysthinking2 (12-14-2010), Jazzman (12-15-2010), least (12-15-2010), Live (12-14-2010), nodaybut2day (12-14-2010), OpenYourEyes (12-14-2010), Phoenixthebird (12-14-2010), Sean718 (12-14-2010)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:14 PM.