Question - how do you handle not pointing out rudeness?
 

I have a question here. One of the things my ex hated about me, was if he was doing something rude or inconsiderate of me, I would point it out. From my point of view, I really didn't see another option. To me, letting him do that thing to me wasn't an option and I was going to say something.

This happened a lot, but one of the easiest examples I can remember is this one: A couple of years ago we bought guitars together. We were both heavy drinkers and talking about how we needed other things to do. One of us suggested guitars and we both got excited and immediately left the bar to go to the music store. We bought some cheap guitars and guitar books. (My ex had played some as a kid so he was already ahead of me) We got home and started trying to learn chords and songs. He kept saying he wanted us to play together and this could be one of hobbies, and I can sing pretty well - sometimes he would play and I would sing. It was a secret for a few weeks - he was embarrassed his friends would make fun of him. One day he finally told his best guy friend (a guy from his alcoholic best friend group) and the guy got really excited. He kept saying, "we're gonna jam man." My ex kept talking about how maybe he and his friend could start a band together and he was going to start bringing the guitar to his house and playing with him. Basically, I was cut out of the picture. Not unusual for my ex to do - in this case I think he is just stupid, not mean.

So after about a week, I decided to say something and I said it as nice as I could. "I need to talk to you about something...just remember...we bought the guitars together and that was going to be our thing. It seems like you guys are going to play now and I'm sort of cut out." He took it okay in that moment but a few days later completely blew up on me for it and screaming at me. How dare I bring that up.

It was one of his biggest pet peeves of me...to ever call out things like that.

Anyone else ever have this experience?

My question - did you learn not to say anything? If you did say anything, were you blown up on?

My counselor says he blew up because he felt ashamed. I don't really believe that.

your counselor was right. he was trying to throw his guilt for being a jerk onto you. that is what they do. and as the codie we take it up as ours. say what you mean, and mean what you say, but just don't say it meanly.

it is harder for them to really throw it back at us as long as when we express what is bugging us we use our phrases with just "I" and no "you". it gets easier the more one consciously does it. hope this helps

Your ex didn't like being called on his poor behavior? Well, boohoo.

No. I didn't keep always keep quiet, although I did learn that it was not really in my best interests to do it. Yes, it was made out to be my fault, although not as overtly as your ex did. One of the many reasons why I left.

You know it's abusive, right?

Yeah. I had a really abusive mother. I've finally started to realize that no one has to talk to me that way and that everything is not my fault. It was H*ll on earth living with her and I always thought I was over it by moving far away from her and "just moving on." The last few months dealing with that has been a lot worse than dealing with the end of the relationship with my ex.

Do you mean like having phrased it as....? Actually can you tell me how to rephrase something in that way? I know I did try saying something once such as, "I just can't handle...this just isn't for me..." And he still went off like a bomb.

Anyway - the point of the thread...he made a list about me and on his list was that I have "social issues." And this very topic is what he assigned as "social issues." He decided that I have social issues because I would directly try to talk to him about stuff like this instead of just saying nothing.

Most of the relationship books I've read and all of what I've learned in Al-anon is to begin these types of conversations (when the A is not drunk) with the statement "When this happens, I feel..." Making it about the feelings and not about accusing is a great opener. You may have done that and still feel that it's not working for you, but that may mean that your A is unable to communicate in reality because of his addiction. That happens a lot in our situation, too.

Hang in there!

Thanks! I'm sad to hear that I'm not alone...but glad to know that this wasn't just me.

We are both software engineers and I tend to be more social and one of the more popular than the people that I work with. Telling me I have social issues tended to be a sore spot for me. (He didn't even know that I found his list about me so I know he really believes this.) I'm sure that I do have SOME social issues compared to others being that i work on computers for a living and am so introverted, but I don't feel that it's anything that would be a big deal.

I HAVE AN EXBF FROM BEFORE MY A WHO DID THAT. ALWAYS ATTACKED WHEN YOU CAlLLED HIM OUT ON BAD BEHAVIOR. IT IS JUST A TACTIC THAT SOME PEOPEL USE. I DO NOT KNOW WHY.

MY EX-ALCOHOLIC DID IT SOMETIMES, BUT NOT AS MUCH AS MY NON-A EX. ACTUALLY ONE OF MY FAMILY FRIENDS DOES THAT AS WELL AS ANOTHER GOOD FRIEND. I THINK SOME PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE TO BE QUESTIONED.

MAYBE IT IS A CONTROLLING THING?

Hmm, I think she may have a point. My aexh just blew up at me for pointing out his bad behavior-- granted, it was something that he did 3 years ago, and I wasn't nearly as polite as you are-- but he reacted way out of proportion to the subject.

To me, it did have the feeling of shame, like I'd poked a sore spot with a long, sharp stick. It's been a long time since I've experienced it (until last week), but he does go into this sort of singleminded, irrational attack mode when I foolishly try to make him look in the mirror.

:v9 goldengirl,
Boy, can I relate to this thread! Through the help of SR and my own soul searching I have come to realize that my dry drunk husband is psychologically abusing me.

Not to long ago I noticed one of his arms had turned all purple. It reminded me of how my body looked after my organs had started to fail. My mid waist had turned a dark purple. I looked like Barney! STUPID ME!

Out of my concern for him, I suggested that he get a physical. He just snapped on me. He turned the subject totally away from him getting a physical and accused me of spending $150.00 without me running it through him first. I bring home by myself at least $2600.00 a month. :abcb:

Talk about an irrational attack! I still haven't figured that one out! :headbange

Long before I ever met my ex, I did a training course that had some stuff from Brian Tracy in it. Man, I wish I had paid more attention. There was a whole section on responsibility in it. He broke it down into "the ability to respond". There is always the time to put a pause in an interaction and then chose how we respond to the stimulus. I try to remember that now.....

golden, have you ever had any therapy or the like to address how your mother behaved towards you?

Dear Golden,
No matter what you say or how you say it isn't going to work with someone like this. My therapist used to call them "collectors of injustices".
My friend was very outgoing and the life and soul of the party and she married a guy who then turned around and began to pick away at her confidence. He was jealous! He hated that all she had to do was turn up while he depended on being from a wellknown family etc.
She is now separated and the sparkle is back. I cannot believe the things this guy said and did. If he was right and you have all these social problems, Then I assume you have no friends and people sneak off to lunch without you at work?
Yea, I thought not. It is deflecting from themselves. I also have a sister, who can cut the legs from under people and do it with a smile of concern! It took a long time to learn how to deal with it, and realize that she was not perfect! I would say, "Sis, I really don't like the tone here. I don't want to continue this." I had to not have anything to do with her for a while.
Please, do not listen to this bs. I think his writing lists and stuff is beyond ridiculous. Where is his list on himself? We are told in AA not to take people's inventory. Keep our side of the street clean etc.
ps, Yes it is rude to start a hobby with someone excitedly and then run off and do it with another person. Thoughtless at the very least.

If someone and I make plans together, I consider that a commitment. In this case, it could be possible for him to keep his commitment about playing guitar with you and also playing with friends. A both scenario rather than either/or.
However if someone breaks a commitment to me, I have the right to discuss that with them. Maybe it is a misunderstanding? Maybe it needs to be re-negotiated due to changing circumstances or needs? Those are respectul, mutual ways to address differences.

I was often the victim of being even more abusively verbally attacked for daring to bring up a current or prior wrongdoing that effected me.
It is intimidation. It is abuse.

I learned the hard way that I simply cannot be in any kind of relationship that employs those dynamics.

No, unfortunately it was not a misunderstanding. It was a common trait of his to do things like that. I've compared his friends to toys...myself included. Another fun toy came along and he would put you or whoever on the shelf for a while and play with that toy instead. I had told him that he needed to learn to moderate himself, he can spend time with everyone. He seemed so all or nothing.

And that's how he is. And you don't like that. So there is no future for you. And a parting of the ways happened.

<gentle voice (again)> What's the problem?

I was just pointing out to how a healthy dynamic handles something like this.

I gathered that his way was pure intimidation.

Sometimes the qualities we think we admire in our dating partner can become resentments as we get to know them more intimate. I thought one of my DDH's "good" quality was the kindness he could show towards strangers. However, I have learned to resent and almost hate this quality of his. My DDH got addicted to a certain website and
even started emailing the other members. He developed close relationships with a couple female members from this website. He would spend a lot of his time corresponding
with these females. He was telling these females "family secrets" about me and his family. I accidentally found out, and he said he was just trying to help them. I bought it! Yet he has remained detached from me and our two sons.

However, now that I was writing this out......it feels like he has played me like a patsy!

*******************************:c004:************* *****************

I, like everyone else, need to use these Self Esteem Quotes to express our greatness!

•Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life believing that it is stupid. ~Albert Einstein

•You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love & affection. ~Buddha

•Of all the judgments we pass in life, none is more important than the judgment we pass on ourselves. ~Nathaniel Branden

******************************:a200:************** *****************

•Everybody is unique. Compare not yourself with anybody else lest you spoil God’s curriculum. ~Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer

•Too many people overvalue what they are not and undervalue what they are. ~Malcolm S. Forbes

•You can’t build joy on a feeling of self-loathing. ~Ram Dass

•It's not your job to like me...it's MINE! ~Byron Katie

******************************:Val003:************ ******************

•Love is the great miracle cure. Loving ourselves works miracles in our lives. ~Louise L. Hay

•The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. ~Joseph Campbell

•Reflect on your present blessings, of which every man has many, not on your past misfortunes, of which all men have some. ~Charles Dickens

•Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

•Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. ~Albert Einstein

This is my personal opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.

Love and Peace,
Phoenix

Bolina what do you mean by what's the problem?

It hurts me that I was picked on so much and told I have social issues and I'm getting feedback and trying to figure that out for myself. I chose to end the relationship and did so with dignity. I'm working on myself and how I feel about myself here. Please move on from my thread. Thanks.

His way was always intimidation. :( I always knew not to challenge most things. That's probably why he blew up so much...so I would be afraid to challenge things.

yes, intimidation and humiliation works.

If it works at an emotional level, then that is where it is dished out...where it hurts.
You would find that if the emotional and verbal intimidation were no longer effective, he would escalate.
It would eventually escalate to open physical abuse.

This did keep you from asserting your rights and from challenging him on his broken agreements etc.

He bullied you.

The humiliation comes in as to where he was saying you were inadequate.

Please try to remember that these are techniques that are abusive. They have everything to do with the abuser and not the abused victim.

Goldengirl, I wasn't having a go! I'm on your side. Apologies if I came across as being against you.

I don't think for one minute that the example you gave was indicative of you having social issues. Why do you set such store on what he thinks? I already said he was abusive. So what he says means pretty much zilch, I reckon. That's all I meant. Your objection to his reaction was entirely reasonable. My only thought is why you might think it would be otherwise?

Peace?

That is how I read you, Bolina.

I know that I said something to someone last night that I meant to be construed as sympathetic to them and they did not reply.
I realized today that we were miscommunicating.

I know that you rid yourself of an abuser, Bolina.

So, did I.
My mind was really in knots and it took me quite awhile to untangle what had happened to me. My entire sense of what was normal was lost for awhile!

I'm sorry Bolina. That is how I took it - as though you thought I just wanted to rant about his behavior. But I'm glad you wrote back and told me otherwise!

Why does what he thinks matter? I guess I just lived in that reality for so long and he was keeping me so beat down and isolated, I really wondered if he was right. And his friends didn't seem to like me from the beginning. My mother never liked me. Maybe they are all right. His "list" was made for our counselor (he went one time and quit) - he seemed to think he was going to present this list and the counselor was going to understand "my issues." Another thing on the list - that I can't swim! I really think this list is just a HUGE focus on me and my "issues" so that he doesn't have to focus on himself. And who gives a flying f* that I can't swim. Unless he suddenly decided after 4.5 years that he really wanted a scuba diving relationship partner...my not swimming is my own d* business.

We are not in contact and I have everything blocked. I did see him a couple of weeks ago - he asked me to take him to an AA meeting. I did and kept very distant, unemotional, but accompanying. After leaving, he said, "We both have a lot of issues to work on." I'm not completely sure what he meant - but I got the impression that just by seeing me he was already trying to focus on me again instead of himself.

It drives me crazy and I don't understand it.

Gradually over time, I gave credence to his assessments of me as valid. I blamed myself for things, trying to be empathetic and see things from his perspective and etc. My mother was very critical and judgemental too.

I spent over two years working through that confusion. I couldn't understand what had happened. What had happened to me. Nor what to think about any of it?
He was a smart man and he could twist things so well that it really warped my handle on myself and my reality and what other's really did think? Maybe I had just not had a clue before of the way other's view things? Maybe I need to develop my awareness and be more open minded?
To make it worse, he really did believe some of his own really warped thinking. It was real to him.
It wasn't just the overt abusive things...he had a whole other viewpoint of so many things. He saw them differently than I did. Things I might think entirely harmless, he considered me to be acting thoughtlessly, selfishly, inconsiderately. He would claim to be hurt by it.

And there is the phenomon of "shifting sands"..every time you think you know and understand where things stand and what he wants and etc..it changes.

I have read many times that Confusion is the hallmark telltale sign of abuse. Emotional, mental and others.

I was so confused I couldn't think clearly about anything anymore. I questioned every motive, every action.

It is the effects of abuse. I am never going to fully understand.

But I have a far better idea of normal now. and there is no room for abuse in it.

Bolina,
Can't swim either!
Live, you hit on something with me.
My father's rules kept changing! We didn't know which way was up!
2 of his most commonly used phrases;
"whether I am right or wrong, I am right anyway" OK then.
"When I say "yes", i mean "no" and when I say "no", I mean "yes". WTF!!!!!!
We did actually "learn" the rules pretty well though.
When everything you do or say is a potential landmine, you give up or you rebel.
I rebelled, but then I rebelled at all authority. And just to cap it off, I became very particular myself about seemingly simple things. You should see my face when someone slams a car-door!
I also developed "battle-fatigue"! Ha!
Remember that Julia Roberts movie? "Sleeping with the enemy"? Great example, but people who did not live with it would have no comprehension I think.
Anyhoo, Yehhh to our freedom and being a person in our own right. Using our own compass to navigate life instead of some lala's!
ps, Did you guys know, there is a correct "direction" to sweep the floor? Yea, you want to watch that one, very important. LOL

This really made me laugh out loud. To think I've probably been doing it wrong this whole time....

To Live: I could never do anything right. And then...mine would yell at me "I can never do anything right by you!!!" Sometimes I wouldn't give any reaction at all when he picked at me. I just really didn't know how to deal with it anymore. To me, all he needed was a dummy doll at that point to act out his dramas. LOL. He could yell at it and accuse it of things...it just sit there and he could keep on going.... I think I just thought of a good Christmas gift....

This is my life.
I am "comfrontational, and tough", because I do not let things go "well"....I hold on to things.

I say I am just expressing my needs. My feelings.

I sometimes feel like this is a old fashioned male/female issue for us. He comes from a family that quietly frowns upon women speaking out..."she's "like that".."

My sister in law is very emotional, maybe a bit dramatic. She always says how she feels. They rip her to shreds behind her back. She can sometimes be trshy, granted, but, she is entitled to say what she feels.

I know, for a fact, that if she was a man, they would call her bold...say she just knows what she knows.

A person that has a vagina and who is also a strong person, with a solid opinion, and maybe a little self possessed is sometimes hard for some people to process.
It is lame and stupid, but unfortunately so.

This is just the case with my A, and his family.

Hey Buffalo. His "best friend" also an alcoholic believes that women's lib ruined the world as he put it. His wife stays at home and takes care of their little ones and that's the way he likes it. He would even say things to my ex like, "Don't let her tell you what to do!" Like I didn't have enough problems!!!

Of course, this person had no problem with me buying food for the boat that day with my high earning job. LOL.

I really don't think my ex agrees with all of that, as his mom is a very strong woman. But it shouldn't didn't help that he was around that kind of mentality.