Learn2Live

ACDirito please come back! You are a valued member of this forum and ALL of your posts are important! I miss you and maybe I am misunderstanding but I hope you did not mean that you are not coming back!!! (((hugs)))

Floss

Acdirito. Please come back...I've been busy this last week and have spent time tonight catching up and reading. I was wanting to know why you left and I think I found the answer..I know it can be confronting here sometimes and it seems so early, early, early in your recovery, you've been challenged by some here on F&F to be somewhere you're not and could not possibly be so early on.. I keep reminding myself that recovery is a process, not an event because I for one am a slow learner! And I'm sure most people here on the forum understand this, I would hope anyway. Maybe there are some who don't. I'm tempted to post that article I found on another site which I titled Shame and Blame on here again to help us all with the newcomers. Acdirito, we were just getting to know you and I for one, really valued your honesty and sharing on this forum.

Learn2Live

Aw Floss, when I saw this thread at the top of the page, I got all excited thinking it was ACDirito who posted just now. Not that I'm not happy you posted, because I am, but

That was a bad thread because it had a lot of tension on it. And I think ACD you just got caught in the cross-fire. So please come back!

Kassie2

I didn't get to read the thread, but this is a good opportunity to remind posters from all stages in recovery to help people at their own place. Most of us move onto the next stage(s) with ample support and respect for our feelings.

freefalling

I agree. Please come back. There was a beautiful thread a while ago where I commented how important validation was to me in early recovery. We all have our own timelines . I think you have been through a lot in a very long relationship and that you are brave by facing your reality.

Hugs from me.

Bucyn

It's easy to understand why she doesn't want to post here. She was looking for support for the friends and family of alcoholics, support for the non-alkie. Like everyone who deals with an alkie she has anger, hurt, and a whole backlog of stories, emotions, and ideas about her experiences. She wanted to share and discuss them, but in doing so, she 'hurt' some alkie's feelings and got jumped on and told she was wrong and blamed and demeaned.

This board is now policed by 'politically correct' alkies who tell us what words to use when we post (for example: can't use the word 'funny', heck no, it will offend some alkie, even tho the word has many meanings including 'odd' and 'ludicrous'; nope, some alkie has decided that's insensitive, and thus the OP is wrong for trying to reach out and find common experiences with other non-addicted family members of alcoholics), told which feelings we have that are acceptable (for example: you are not to feel contempt for any alcoholic, nor are you to be unsympathetic, dismissive, or angry--unless you get over your anger and 'forgive'), and also are told that there is only one path and one goal in recovery, that is to detach with sympathy, to forgive and never judge, and to believe that the alkie has no control over his/her condition. If you don't follow that creed, then you are still damaged, and the alkie will tell you all about it.

If some alcoholic slaps my face, it's MY face that hurts and there's nothing wrong with me discussing it AND discussing the alkie's participation in the pain. It is not helpful to tell the VICTIM of the slap, "just focus on your face, don't look into the alkie's actions". It's my experience to discuss and just because I mention the alkie does not mean I'm focusing on him or obsessing. I agree some people can spend ALL their time focusing on the alkie and that's not good. But understanding the dynamic and the patterns of alcoholic behavior is healing for non-alkies.

It would have been good perhaps for ACdorito to hear stories of funny/odd/ludricious/unreasonable/hurtful behavior other family members of alkie's have had to cope with. It could have put her own experiences into context and balance. It could have been reassuring to her. It could have promoted bonding with other board members.

But no, she got attacked for using the word "funny" in a way an addicted person didn't approve of, and scolded for not focusing on herself (which she WAS doing, even as her alkie was involved too), and patronized for being still in an early stage of recovery, etc...

Let's remember here, folks, that NONE of us are experts or highly trained or qualified or really know the answers--however many times we've posted, or however bad our experiences were and however good our life is now. There is a disclaimer on these forums that all opinions expressed are OPINIONS only, not professional advice.

And let's be frank: the opinions of addicts/alcholics are tainted, even if they also love/are involved with an alkie too. Addicts/alcoholics have an agenda whether they want to admit it or not: they do not want to be considered bad, blameworthy, ludirous, mean, contemptible, whatever. They naturally want to be well thought of, excused, and recognized as victims of their own weakness (whether biological or just emotional). They are not generally unbiased.

ACdirito and most of the others here who are dealing with active alkies (and who are not also addicted to some some substance themselves) do not need to deal with the sensitive easily bruised feelings of alkie board members on top of having to cope with the delicate sensibilities of the alkie in her life. Before joining the board she only had one alkie she had to walk on eggshells for; since joining, she has more. How does that help her.

It's fine if alkies/addicts want to participate here, but there needs to be a CLEAR understanding that this board is for the support of people who are dealing with the very unpleasant, nasty, awful, hateful, life destroying byproduct of other peoples' addiction to alcohol.

The fact is, and those who are addicted need to understand this if they want to participate here, that friends and family members of alcoholics commonly have contempt, hatred, disgust, and other very uncomfortable-to-alcoholics feelings. Sometimes there is not and never will be forgiveness, because sometimes alcoholics behave in ways that are unforgiveable. And it's not wrong to say so or discuss, even if it upsets some alkie here who is worried they won't be forgiven the horrible things they've done.

There will be judgement and blame, because using judgement (and it's by-product, blame) is how we make decisions. Not using judgement results in making horrible decisions. And yes, often times the judgement is the alkie is not worth it, or has no good in them (except maybe for the Hilter-loved-his-dog kind or at-least-Mussellini-made-the-trains-run-on-time type, iow, worthless). I understand such talk would make alkies and people still very attached to alkies anxious: because it addresses the hopelessness of the situation and alkies of course want second, third, tenth, fifieth chances. But that's not the problem of someone who is not abusing a substance and only trying to cope with the devastation created by the alcoholic.

This board failed ACdirito, because it did not deliver what it promised--support for the family and friends of alcoholics. The alcoholics, former and active, here keep trying to garner support for themselves.

Alcoholic recovery and F&F of alcoholic recovery are sometimes two different paths, going in opposite directions. Oftentimes even at the expense of the alcoholic. Too bad if alcoholics don't get support here. There's a board devoted to their support. This one should be devoted to the support of F&Fs--and increasingly, it is not. It's becoming a propagandized support for alcoholics.

And I don't blame ACdirito for leaving. She has enough on her plate without having to keep the alcoholics here happy too.

LaTeeDa

There is so much about your post to disagree with, but I will attempt to stick to sharing my Experience, Strength and Hope instead.

The above quote highlights a fundamental difference in your understanding of forgiveness and mine. In my experience, forgiveness is of no benefit to the person being forgiven. It is a gift I give myself, in order to free myself from the resentment and anger that cause me emotional and spiritual pain long after the wrong has been done.

I also believe that the reason so many recent posts have gone awry is because of the very attitude of "all alkies are a, b, c" and "all codies are x, y, z." Speaking of YOUR OWN experiences and pain is one thing. Characterizing a entire class of people based on how you feel about one or a few of them is a totally different thing.

(And, just in case you were wondering....I am not an "alkie," but was married to one for 20 years. Also ACOA.)

L

Learn2Live

Bucyn, begging your pardon but this thread was intended to express goodness, love and welcome to ACDirito, not to create another opportunity for hatred, bashing and complaining. The attitude you display so violently is exactly the kind of attitude that created the tension on that thread which lead to ACDirito being treated poorly in the first place. I am going to request that your post be removed. Thank you.

Learn2Live

On second thought, perhaps it is best to leave it there as testimony to your hatemongering. I'll leave it to the mods to decide then.

Paintbaby

Why are you trying to censor Bucyn? She has a point. And if someone disagrees with you, I don't think it right for you to attempt to silence them, just because you disagree with them. Isn't this the controlling type of attitude that got this whole ugly ball rolling in the first place? Asking ACdirito back is all very well and good, but I wouldn't hold my breath thinking that she will just jump back into the fray here when clearly, nothing has changed. Misunderstandings are one thing, but when you attempt to silence another because you don't like what they are saying, that is a shining example of codie behaviour at it's best. It is also incredibly disprespectful to that person's experiences, which they have the right to name and own--especially if it was an alcoholic causing the pain, since this is the support for friends and family forum. Something to think about.

Paintbaby

Wow. "Hatemongering"? That is an incredibly serious allegation to make toward someone who was expressing an opinion that you disagree with. Not. Cool. I don't see at all where Bucyn was inciting hatred toward a specific group--it seems that she was just speaking out against folks being censored from naming their very real pain caused in their very real lives by very real alcoholics.

Clearly, this is an emotional issue for you. Perhaps you should have sent ACDirito a private message, instead of posting a public thread, and then objecting when others decided to weigh in on the topic of the thread. These are our boards too.

Either way, I've made my point, and I am stepping away now before things get heated. Again.

wicked

really, paintbaby, you dont see "alkies" as a specific group that bucyn has a deep abiding hatred for?
cause, i can feel it emanating off the page?
we dont have the right to speak here, because we are not friends and family.
she is wrong about that. very wrong.
i am friends and family.
i am an adult child, i am a recovering alcoholic "alkie", i was married to an alcoholic crack addict and i have two children who are struggling with addiction.
but i dont have the right to speak here?
says bucyn.

These are our boards too.

Freedom1990

I'm sorry you feel that way, Bucyn.

I think there are many here from both sides of the fence who contribute greatly. They have certainly enriched my recovery.

As for your broad picture of alcoholics/addicts here who also qualify as codependents, I won't take it personally.

I hear a tremendous amount of pain in your post underneath the typed words.

I pray you find a way to heal that pain.

wicked

freedom is right.

sorry bucyn, your pain is obvious, and i should not contribute.
i am sorry.

beth

Freedom1990

I was beyond angry for a long time after I first got into recovery.

That anger was an effective shield to keep people at arm's length, and I didn't have to deal with the pain.

It's still a knee-jerk reaction that I have to watch.

As long as I stay angry, I don't have to feel the pain.

Learn2Live

So Freedom, when you are in the anger can you see clearly? How do you get yourself out of it? Or do you inhibit the response to the anger somehow?

wicked

Thank you Freedom.
I can see how my anger can get me feeling self righteous, and oh my, that does not go to a good place.
But, I appreciate you sharing that it can sometimes be knee jerk for you and you have to keep a watch on it.
14 years of recovery here, but still having to take a walk when I get mad.
The great thing is, I dont need to get numb over it.

thank you again freedom,
beth

and thank you bucyn.

Freedom1990

My anger rises pretty quickly, like I said, a knee-jerk reaction.

I try hard not to blow, to walk off if I'm in a situation face-to-face (like with my 22-year-old).

I take a lot of deep breaths, calm down, and then ask myself two things:

1) What am I hurting over?
2) What am I afraid of?

It's been my experience that the majority of my anger is masking one of those two things.

Sometimes I do blow, and that's usually because I've been stuffing a lot of fear and pain both. What goes down must eventually come up. That's the ugly side of me, and I've worked really hard not to let things pile up to that point.

Bucyn

Please read again, Wicked. I said the opposite.

I wrote what I wrote to support ACDirito's decision to leave. This board was just giving her more aggravation. I think I understand why she left, and from some of the private messages and emails I've received, I know that several people feel similar.

LaTeeDa--about forgiveness. I agree with you about your interpretation of forgiveness. However, a lot of people think of forgiveness as in the phrase 'forgive and forget' meaning that you haven't REALLY forgiven if you don't just pretend it's all better now and move on like it never happened. That to forgive them means to approve of them, to let down your defenses to them, and not to expect any atonement be made. In fact, one thing friends and families of alcoholics deal with, is the pressure by the alkie and their enablers/apologists to act in that mode of forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a very slippery topic. I forgive my kids' father for his alcoholism and all the reprehensible, horrible, mean-spirited damage he has caused so many people. He has six kids and 3 wives and no one will talk to him. He hasn't a friend in the world, even his brother, a recovering alcoholic of about 6 years won't deal with him (altho his brother puts a lot of pressure on me to forgive him). He did terrible things to me and my kids, and destroyed so much in my life that the kids and I still are recovering from it. The venom, brutality, and hatefulness was such that the world really would have been better off had he died 15 years ago (I've talked to girlfriends and people he knew after me--he's horrible).

He has no friends. Chances are very good he's going to die unknown to anyone in his one-bedroom apartment next to the highway and his death will only be discovered because of the smell.

I forgive him. When that happens, I will bury him. I owe him nothing, and the county would bury him as a pauper. But I already know I'll do it. I'll take the time and effort and expense to have him go into a nice decent VA cemetery. Why? Because I forgive him. If he called him this moment, I'd hang up on him. If I walked down the street and saw him collapsed, I'd turn the other way and call 911 and hope they get there before he died. There are people who say that I have not forgiven him.

Forgiveness is a big issue for F&Fs. All the shades and variations and degrees of forgiveness. All the different philosophies of forgiveness. It's something worth discussing here, necessary to discuss here; but something that cannot be successfully discussed because one person's definition or practice of of forgiveness is probably not good enough for someone else who will be offended that someone isn't doing it right.

I think it is also all right NOT to forgive. Even God does not always forgive (hence the need for hell). But if some F&F were to declare they would never forgive the alkie who has made their life hell, you can bet they'd be pummelled here, told that they were hateful, told that they were still in an early stage of recovery (with the implication that someday when they are fully evolved they will 'properly' forgive). There would be almost no support for that person.

I will practice forgiveness my way and will not submit to pressure to 'forgive' according to someone else's needs or values. And I will stand up for any F&F who wants to not forgive or who want to practice forgiveness in a manner than isn't sanctioned here. I think you can heal without forgiveness; I know that in some mainstream religions forgiveness is not recommended to be given to people who have not repented. But those are not politically correct views here on Soberrecovery F&F, and that's too bad because it limits F&F who are trying to make sense of their position and where they should be going from here. It limits their options and inhibits full support.

wicked

wow, very easy to remember.
i can do that.