Shame and Blame
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great post, great responses all.
I think TRD's point is not that there has to be blame, not that there aren't choices, I think her point is that for someone on the receiving end of abuse responsibility = fault, there is no distinction between them when you are within that world. that is pretty much the point of abuse, for the perpetrator to get their chosen person into that frame of mind, and it can take years of subtle, practiced, relentless application of techniques to get someone there. 2 sentences on an internet forum in response to a cry for help won't undo that work.
Fault, blame and responsibility certainly were synonymous to me. Therefore to talk of responsibility to someone who is within an abusive relationship and just starting to take the enormously brave step of reaching out (when we have no idea what risks they are taking to do so) serves no helpful purpose to the abused person.
I understand the motivation, to shake or shock or shout someone out of a damaging mindset, to help them see that they are not trapped, to show them that they have choices that it is not hopeless that they can get out and not get caught up in a relationship like that again, to save them pain...BUT...
Once we know the information that a person on the receiving end of abuse will interpret talk of responsibility and choices as further reinforcement of the abuser's words, I think we have to ask ourselves why would we continue to talk in those terms??
....definition of insanity comes to mind... doing something that ought to help over and over again, even though we have been told by experts and recipients that it has the oppposite effect.
I think TRD's point is not that there has to be blame, not that there aren't choices, I think her point is that for someone on the receiving end of abuse responsibility = fault, there is no distinction between them when you are within that world. that is pretty much the point of abuse, for the perpetrator to get their chosen person into that frame of mind, and it can take years of subtle, practiced, relentless application of techniques to get someone there. 2 sentences on an internet forum in response to a cry for help won't undo that work.
Fault, blame and responsibility certainly were synonymous to me. Therefore to talk of responsibility to someone who is within an abusive relationship and just starting to take the enormously brave step of reaching out (when we have no idea what risks they are taking to do so) serves no helpful purpose to the abused person.
I understand the motivation, to shake or shock or shout someone out of a damaging mindset, to help them see that they are not trapped, to show them that they have choices that it is not hopeless that they can get out and not get caught up in a relationship like that again, to save them pain...BUT...
Once we know the information that a person on the receiving end of abuse will interpret talk of responsibility and choices as further reinforcement of the abuser's words, I think we have to ask ourselves why would we continue to talk in those terms??
....definition of insanity comes to mind... doing something that ought to help over and over again, even though we have been told by experts and recipients that it has the oppposite effect.
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Originally Posted by Bolina 
Thank you for this, Floss. I read this when you first put it up and it has been on my mind ever since. It chimes with how my thinking has changed over the past few years, although my present thoughts are a little cloudy and I'm not sure that I am ready yet to put them into words, so apologies if I miss the point. I'll have a go.....
I know that I can come across a little, erm, abrasive on-line. And that sometimes that may come across as victim-blaming. In fact, I am sure that I am victim-blaming in the sense of your OP, although that is never my intention. I think those responses stem from my biggest lightbulb moment when I was in a relationship with an alcoholic - that I had choices. My world had become so narrow that I couldn't see beyond him changing or me putting up with it. That I had an active choice every day to stay or not in that relationship didn't really occur to me because I was so enmeshed in the situation. After I understood the 3 Cs, all(!) that was left for me to change was me and my reactions to, and actions regarding, the alcoholic and my life with or without him. Of course, I was exercising choice before that revelation, however it was not a conscious one. And it was me that ignored the red flags. It was partly my baggage that took me into that relationship and then kept me there. However, it was him that targeted me when I was vulnerable. It was him that manipulated me from day 1, who used my naivete against me. It was him that spun the lies and hid the bottles and insisted on talking late into the night so that I was constantly tired (and hence more vulnerable) and guilt tripped me into having sex with him etc etc. The responsibility for being a ****head stops with him. I am becoming increasingly hard-line about this, actually. That is someting I need to be aware of when posting on-line because it is too easy to invoke the "but i love him" retreat in a newbie.
If I had never met him, I would have probably ended up in a common or garden relationship, with some tricky times that a spot of therapy would have cleared up (partly joking). As it was, I ended up in a situation that is still having an effect on me 5 years later. I am grumpily grateful now, because I prefer the person that I am now than the person I would probably have become had I not met him.
Of course, recovery is a process and just like running before I could walk would not have worked for me, I have to remind myself that it is the same for others. No matter that I want to save them some pain by nudging them further along the path before they are ready or that I am probably actually speaking to myself when I am responding to someone else. I still do it because I am still recovering.
I thank you deeply for this post and I shall bear it in mind every single time I post a resonse to someone.
I know that I can come across a little, erm, abrasive on-line. And that sometimes that may come across as victim-blaming. In fact, I am sure that I am victim-blaming in the sense of your OP, although that is never my intention. I think those responses stem from my biggest lightbulb moment when I was in a relationship with an alcoholic - that I had choices. My world had become so narrow that I couldn't see beyond him changing or me putting up with it. That I had an active choice every day to stay or not in that relationship didn't really occur to me because I was so enmeshed in the situation. After I understood the 3 Cs, all(!) that was left for me to change was me and my reactions to, and actions regarding, the alcoholic and my life with or without him. Of course, I was exercising choice before that revelation, however it was not a conscious one. And it was me that ignored the red flags. It was partly my baggage that took me into that relationship and then kept me there. However, it was him that targeted me when I was vulnerable. It was him that manipulated me from day 1, who used my naivete against me. It was him that spun the lies and hid the bottles and insisted on talking late into the night so that I was constantly tired (and hence more vulnerable) and guilt tripped me into having sex with him etc etc. The responsibility for being a ****head stops with him. I am becoming increasingly hard-line about this, actually. That is someting I need to be aware of when posting on-line because it is too easy to invoke the "but i love him" retreat in a newbie.
If I had never met him, I would have probably ended up in a common or garden relationship, with some tricky times that a spot of therapy would have cleared up (partly joking). As it was, I ended up in a situation that is still having an effect on me 5 years later. I am grumpily grateful now, because I prefer the person that I am now than the person I would probably have become had I not met him.
Of course, recovery is a process and just like running before I could walk would not have worked for me, I have to remind myself that it is the same for others. No matter that I want to save them some pain by nudging them further along the path before they are ready or that I am probably actually speaking to myself when I am responding to someone else. I still do it because I am still recovering.
I thank you deeply for this post and I shall bear it in mind every single time I post a resonse to someone.
I think I can be a bit feisty on the wall too Bolina, lol...I've accepted I'm at my angry stage of recovery. Your reply has given me heaps to think about too, thankyou. I'm sure as I move along in recovery, I'll see what the newcomers are going through and feel like responding in a way they might not be ready for and I'll have to remind myself where I was and come back and read this again. And you're so right, recovery is a process. One day at a time as they say! Thank God for SR and other support groups with people who understand...
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What's the difference between "taking responsibility" for words and/or actions and "blame?" What is so wrong with shame? I am ashamed of things I do and say sometimes. Then I'm sorry. I do my best to make amends and not repeat the offense. I hope forgiveness will be extended. If it is - thank you. If it isn't, I know everyone does wrong things and I have done the right thing about the wrong thing. Life goes on.
Modern culture has a burr up its butt about guilt. I like the line from High Wind in Jamaica (I think it was that movie) -- where the ship's crew is wrongly sentenced to be hanged, one sailor wails "But we're not guilty!" The captain replies, "You must be guilty of something." I am not advocating we wallow in guilt -- just trying to keep my own vision clear. I am NOT guilty of causing AH's alcoholism -- for example.
Modern culture has a burr up its butt about guilt. I like the line from High Wind in Jamaica (I think it was that movie) -- where the ship's crew is wrongly sentenced to be hanged, one sailor wails "But we're not guilty!" The captain replies, "You must be guilty of something." I am not advocating we wallow in guilt -- just trying to keep my own vision clear. I am NOT guilty of causing AH's alcoholism -- for example.
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[QUOTE=chicory;2746331][QUOTE]
Hi Chicory, I'm glad the post helped and I hope your heart heals. I understand how badly a heart can break. My heart was so broken and I didn't know how to move on and friends couldn't understand why I wasn't letting go. One of the main things I got out of what I posted was acceptance. I needed to accept where I was and I was okay.
I understand the concept of take what I want and leave the rest, but it can be difficult to do so when I feel so vulnerable, so I totally understand where you're at with regard to your fear in posting. I've been the same...Sometimes I don't feel confident enough to post because I don't have enough recovery under my belt, I don't know what to say and I fear the replies (whoa, how's my self esteem?) I learnt something the other day. I was triggered so much by another thread (which was my reason for posting the shame/blame) and I needed to look within why I got so angry...who, when, what was it reminding me of? I don't know yet...actually I haven't allowed myself to discover it yet, but I will. Since then, and with a couple of helpful PM's from a fellow SR, I've decided I'll start writing, slowly but surely. And if I make a mistake on a post/reply, oh well, I'm only human. I agree, without this site, I don't know where I'd be either. It's here 24 hours a day too!
Nice to meet you Chicory... hugs back
e
thank you, so much for posting this. i have at times been told here at sr that i am as sick as my as. that i am doing this to myself. those things made me feel shame, and did not help. the things that help are those kind individuals who offer a shoulder, and no criticism, but support and encouragement.
i hope that all could read this. it is so hard when your heart is broken and you dont know what to do next, for someone to basically try to force you to do what they think is right for you.
i know to take what i need and leave the rest, but sometimes, i fear posting , knowing that some may add to my pain. and who needs that?
If I did nothave this site, i dont know what i would do. it has made a very big difference in my situation, and is helping me.
thank you so much, for this.
hugs,
chicory
thank you, so much for posting this. i have at times been told here at sr that i am as sick as my as. that i am doing this to myself. those things made me feel shame, and did not help. the things that help are those kind individuals who offer a shoulder, and no criticism, but support and encouragement.
i hope that all could read this. it is so hard when your heart is broken and you dont know what to do next, for someone to basically try to force you to do what they think is right for you.
i know to take what i need and leave the rest, but sometimes, i fear posting , knowing that some may add to my pain. and who needs that?
If I did nothave this site, i dont know what i would do. it has made a very big difference in my situation, and is helping me.
thank you so much, for this.
hugs,
chicory
Hi Chicory, I'm glad the post helped and I hope your heart heals. I understand how badly a heart can break. My heart was so broken and I didn't know how to move on and friends couldn't understand why I wasn't letting go. One of the main things I got out of what I posted was acceptance. I needed to accept where I was and I was okay.
I understand the concept of take what I want and leave the rest, but it can be difficult to do so when I feel so vulnerable, so I totally understand where you're at with regard to your fear in posting. I've been the same...Sometimes I don't feel confident enough to post because I don't have enough recovery under my belt, I don't know what to say and I fear the replies (whoa, how's my self esteem?) I learnt something the other day. I was triggered so much by another thread (which was my reason for posting the shame/blame) and I needed to look within why I got so angry...who, when, what was it reminding me of? I don't know yet...actually I haven't allowed myself to discover it yet, but I will. Since then, and with a couple of helpful PM's from a fellow SR, I've decided I'll start writing, slowly but surely. And if I make a mistake on a post/reply, oh well, I'm only human. I agree, without this site, I don't know where I'd be either. It's here 24 hours a day too!
Nice to meet you Chicory... hugs back
To thine own self be true.
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I used to have this weird need to be RIGHT all the time. As though if I were not right, the world would end. I remember people saying I always needed to know it all, or I was a "know-it-all." I think that need to be right goes all the way back from (growing up in and) living with active alcoholism. It's part of the sickness. It's part of stinkin' thinkin'. "Everyone else is an IDIOT and I am always RIGHT."
I'm different now. I have no need to be right and I no longer insist that I am. Thanks Al-Anon.
I used to feel vulnerable all the time. I don't any more. It is like I am a different person. I know this is going to sound really weird but I believe my shoes play a big part in the fact that I no longer feel vulnerable. I don't wear high heels any more; I don't wear shoes that I feel wobbly in. I wear sturdy shoes, shoes that allow me to RUN if I need to. Or maybe even stand my ground and kick someone's a$$ if I have to. Of course, I'm not making any fashion statements with my shoes but I have no need to make fashion statements any more.
I'm different now. I have no need to be right and I no longer insist that I am. Thanks Al-Anon.
I used to feel vulnerable all the time. I don't any more. It is like I am a different person. I know this is going to sound really weird but I believe my shoes play a big part in the fact that I no longer feel vulnerable. I don't wear high heels any more; I don't wear shoes that I feel wobbly in. I wear sturdy shoes, shoes that allow me to RUN if I need to. Or maybe even stand my ground and kick someone's a$$ if I have to. Of course, I'm not making any fashion statements with my shoes but I have no need to make fashion statements any more.
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Originally Posted by Daybreak
What's the difference between "taking responsibility" for words and/or actions and "blame?" What is so wrong with shame? I am ashamed of things I do and say sometimes. Then I'm sorry. I do my best to make amends and not repeat the offense. I hope forgiveness will be extended. If it is - thank you. If it isn't, I know everyone does wrong things and I have done the right thing about the wrong thing. Life goes on.
Modern culture has a burr up its butt about guilt. I like the line from High Wind in Jamaica (I think it was that movie) -- where the ship's crew is wrongly sentenced to be hanged, one sailor wails "But we're not guilty!" The captain replies, "You must be guilty of something." I am not advocating we wallow in guilt -- just trying to keep my own vision clear. I am NOT guilty of causing AH's alcoholism -- for example.
Modern culture has a burr up its butt about guilt. I like the line from High Wind in Jamaica (I think it was that movie) -- where the ship's crew is wrongly sentenced to be hanged, one sailor wails "But we're not guilty!" The captain replies, "You must be guilty of something." I am not advocating we wallow in guilt -- just trying to keep my own vision clear. I am NOT guilty of causing AH's alcoholism -- for example.
He talks about guilt and shame and makes the distinction that guilt is something you feel when you do something 'wrong.' Shame is feeling you are a 'bad person' because of it. And as codependents, we feel both guilt and shame for things others do. This is part of what keeps us stuck and feeling trapped in our situations.
The problem I have with shame and blame is that it's all about the past. If we spend our days trying to figure out who's to blame and who's 'fault' it is, we stay stuck in the past. As Bernadette likes to say--"You are free in this moment." Changing our lives for the better does not begin by figuring out who is at fault. It begins with awareness. Awareness of our choices and our own power over our situation. From there, we can take responsibility for ourselves moving forward. Deconstructing how we got where we are can help, but it's an exercise for a later time, not something we can objectively do while we are in the burning building. To me at least, that is the difference between taking responsibility and feeling guilt/shame. One is about the present. The other is about the past.
L
Last edited by LaTeeDa; 10-25-2010 at 06:58 AM. Reason: fixed link
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Upon further reflection, I believe I know now why this article has rubbed me the wrong way. It's the one-size-fits-all prescriptive nature of it.
I had a therapist who was exactly what TRD says doesn't work. But, it worked for me. She sympathized with my situation, but focused on what I could do about, not what a poor victim I was. She helped me see my responsibility, and in the process helped me claim my power.
This article seems to be saying that what worked for me doesn't work. It invalidates my experience in recovery. And threads like this say to me--"you shouldn't share your experience because it's not going to work for some people."
There is no single way to recovery. I come here not as a therapist or abuse counselor, but just someone who was married to an alcoholic for 20 years. I share what worked for me. I don't expect it will work for everyone. But, I also don't expect to be told not to share just because my experience isn't the same as someone else.
L
I had a therapist who was exactly what TRD says doesn't work. But, it worked for me. She sympathized with my situation, but focused on what I could do about, not what a poor victim I was. She helped me see my responsibility, and in the process helped me claim my power.
This article seems to be saying that what worked for me doesn't work. It invalidates my experience in recovery. And threads like this say to me--"you shouldn't share your experience because it's not going to work for some people."
There is no single way to recovery. I come here not as a therapist or abuse counselor, but just someone who was married to an alcoholic for 20 years. I share what worked for me. I don't expect it will work for everyone. But, I also don't expect to be told not to share just because my experience isn't the same as someone else.
L
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If we spend our days trying to figure out who's to blame and who's 'fault' it is, we stay stuck in the past.
That requires placing blame where it belongs, with the abuser. The sooner they get to that point the sooner they can get out of that situation.
IMHO.
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Originally Posted by Still Waters
While I agree with this, I'd like to point out that in an abusive situation it's imperative that the victim get to the point where they recognize that they are 1)being abused 2)it's not their fault.
That requires placing blame where it belongs, with the abuser. The sooner they get to that point the sooner they can get out of that situation.
IMHO.
That requires placing blame where it belongs, with the abuser. The sooner they get to that point the sooner they can get out of that situation.
IMHO.
L
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What you're missing LTD, is that in the vast majority of cases the victims are already blaming...themselves.
It's totally illogical to say: You need to get out, the situation is dangerous for your and your children...BUT placing blame on your abuser for the abuse is not healthy.
It's totally illogical to say: You need to get out, the situation is dangerous for your and your children...BUT placing blame on your abuser for the abuse is not healthy.
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Originally Posted by Still Waters
What you're missing LTD, is that in the vast majority of cases the victims are already blaming...themselves.
It's totally illogical to say: You need to get out, the situation is dangerous for your and your children...BUT placing blame on your abuser for the abuse is not healthy.
It's totally illogical to say: You need to get out, the situation is dangerous for your and your children...BUT placing blame on your abuser for the abuse is not healthy.
It is possible to stop blaming yourself for something without transferring the blame to someone else. Blame is not required.
L
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Originally Posted by Still Waters
While I agree with this, I'd like to point out that in an abusive situation it's imperative that the victim get to the point where they recognize that they are 1)being abused 2)it's not their fault.
That requires placing blame where it belongs, with the abuser. The sooner they get to that point the sooner they can get out of that situation.
IMHO.
That requires placing blame where it belongs, with the abuser. The sooner they get to that point the sooner they can get out of that situation.
IMHO.
I see your analogy where the one being abused recognizes those things as acceptance of what really is, not necessarily as blame. Then actions can be taken accordingly.
Clear as mud?
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If your house is burning down, do you spend time worrying about who is to blame for the fire or do you get yourself and your loved ones out immediately? There is time to worry about how things got to that point later, but right now, you need to get out.
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Originally Posted by Freedom1990
My sponsor always tells me to take blame out of the equation. Blame is living in the problem, not the solution.
I see your analogy where the one being abused recognizes those things as acceptance of what really is, not necessarily as blame. Then actions can be taken accordingly.
Clear as mud?
I see your analogy where the one being abused recognizes those things as acceptance of what really is, not necessarily as blame. Then actions can be taken accordingly.
Clear as mud?
I see acting like blame is something that doesn't or shouldn't exist akin to poking your head in the sand. Or, denial. Utter and total denial.
People can and do do bad things to other people. There is everything in the world healthy about finally seeing the truth about an abusive situation and placing blame where it legitimately belongs...with the abuser. Anything else is denial...and we all know a whole bunch about that unfortunately.
Some rosy world where an abuse victim can see clearly the abuse and remove themselves from the abuser without laying or placing blame isn't the one I live on.
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Originally Posted by suki44883
If your house is burning down, do you spend time worrying about who is to blame for the fire or do you get yourself and your loved ones out immediately? There is time to worry about how things got to that point later, but right now, you need to get out.
Cause the fire analogy doesn't work
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If you truly believe someone must be to blame, then someone has to be the bad guy. And if you love the person who is abusing you, and you cannot come to terms with making them the bad guy, but somebody has to take the blame...
I can see how this belief that there has to be blame could actually keep someone stuck.
L
I can see how this belief that there has to be blame could actually keep someone stuck.
L
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Ooh, this has got even more interesting. I am thinking that perhaps there is a bit of a semantic thang going on as far as the blame/responsibility thing is concerned. And there is a nuance in the OP and the response I want to give that I can't quite lay my finger on and explain it clearly.
I think, for me, the crux is that I don't really know what to do with blame, as I understand the word. Where does blaming someone lead me? to me, it's quite a passive word. Responsibility, I can do something with. I can hold someone responsible for their actions. I can lay down the responsibilities of others that I have picked up. I can be active in terms of my own responsibilities. It gives me options. (And options is the word I should probably have used instead of choices in my first reply).
Hmmm.....
I think, for me, the crux is that I don't really know what to do with blame, as I understand the word. Where does blaming someone lead me? to me, it's quite a passive word. Responsibility, I can do something with. I can hold someone responsible for their actions. I can lay down the responsibilities of others that I have picked up. I can be active in terms of my own responsibilities. It gives me options. (And options is the word I should probably have used instead of choices in my first reply).
Hmmm.....
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
If you truly believe someone must be to blame, then someone has to be the bad guy. And if you love the person who is abusing you, and you cannot come to terms with making them the bad guy, but somebody has to take the blame...
I can see how this belief that there has to be blame could actually keep someone stuck.
L
I can see how this belief that there has to be blame could actually keep someone stuck.
L
I can guarantee you that the legal system will blame me for putting my child into a dangerous situation. Many here can attest to that, as they have dealt with child protective services. They will lay blame and they will remove the child from my custody. Drunk drivers are blamed for recklessness even if it doesn't cause any damage.
To me, part of blame is taking responsibility. I blame myself for staying too long, I have to (and do) take full responsibility for that.
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Was just doing a bit of digging around re blame so that I could untangle why I dislike it so much and found this on wikipedia:
I appreciate that "holding responsible" is in there, however I found it interesting that it states that the opposite is praise. I think that's where I come unstuck in terms of equating it with responsibility. To me, responsibility is value-neutral, blame is value-loaded. Responsibility is based on fact - I can hold someone responsible for hitting my car whilst skidding on ice, for example, and have no negative emotion towards that person. I'm not sure I can do that if I get into blaming.
Ugh, I'm not sure I'm making sense even to me.
Blame is the act of censuring, holding responsible, making negative statements about an individual or group that their action or actions are socially or morally irresponsible, the opposite of praise.
Ugh, I'm not sure I'm making sense even to me.
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