frustrated and tired
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Morning Glory,
Thank you for your encouragement. It is frightening to let go.
I ask myself-if i let go, for my serenity, will there be any serenity while i worry if he eats or sleeps safely?
many say that for me, i have to do this. this may be harder than having him here with me. for i will worry- a lot.
i am doing this for him, really. i will get some momentary peace, and wont have to deal with the frustration of hearing his rediculous denial excuses. but i will be sick with worry, that is me, and i cant pretend that i wont worry. i will work on my peace and will enjoy my girls and grandbabies. will clean my house, and have it back as a peaceful place that my family can come to. my grandbabies can stay all night with me again. there will be lots of nice things in letting go of someone who fights against the truth.
someone once said that we are only as happy as our saddest child, and i think that it may be true. I am doing this for him, in faith that it is the only thing that can help him now. At least, he will be forced to think about his problems instead of hiding from them. He will actively be involved in his own survival, and may feel much more alive. He will be around people instead of on the computer constantly. I think that he may wake up, and begin to do for his self. I really feel that this will be better than what he has been doing here. If i did not feel that he needs this, i could never do it.
how are things going for your son? i hope that he is doing ok, and that you have peace.
thank you for sharing with me, it is very helpful right now, especially.
hugs,
annette
Thank you for your encouragement. It is frightening to let go.
I ask myself-if i let go, for my serenity, will there be any serenity while i worry if he eats or sleeps safely?
many say that for me, i have to do this. this may be harder than having him here with me. for i will worry- a lot.
i am doing this for him, really. i will get some momentary peace, and wont have to deal with the frustration of hearing his rediculous denial excuses. but i will be sick with worry, that is me, and i cant pretend that i wont worry. i will work on my peace and will enjoy my girls and grandbabies. will clean my house, and have it back as a peaceful place that my family can come to. my grandbabies can stay all night with me again. there will be lots of nice things in letting go of someone who fights against the truth.
someone once said that we are only as happy as our saddest child, and i think that it may be true. I am doing this for him, in faith that it is the only thing that can help him now. At least, he will be forced to think about his problems instead of hiding from them. He will actively be involved in his own survival, and may feel much more alive. He will be around people instead of on the computer constantly. I think that he may wake up, and begin to do for his self. I really feel that this will be better than what he has been doing here. If i did not feel that he needs this, i could never do it.
how are things going for your son? i hope that he is doing ok, and that you have peace.
thank you for sharing with me, it is very helpful right now, especially.
hugs,
annette
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Land of Cotton
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Chicory - What is your plan of action after this weekend is over?
What will you do when he calls or shows up at your door pulling every manipulative trick in the book?
How will you alleviate your worry? Will you be calling to check on him?
What will you do when he calls or shows up at your door pulling every manipulative trick in the book?
How will you alleviate your worry? Will you be calling to check on him?
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(((tjp)))
i plan on hanging around here, a lot.
i am going to tell him that i wont be taking his calls, if he tries to manipulate. i plan on not taking them for a while anyway. he can leave a message, and if he has an emergency, he can call 911.i am not his savior, and he has to begin to do his own thinking.
he will be on foot, with no money- except for his food card. he will probably not walk all the way here, for it is a good distance from the shelter, and he knows the way they work. if he goes there.
i will just stay busy- and i will worry- that is normal, i think.
i will not call him- that will only set him up to try to get me to take care of him again. i want to give him the message that he can do it- that it is time for him to take care of his self, and that if he continues his on self destructive path, he will have this life style to look forward to. this is what he has earned.
that is my plan, and i know that my girls will be there to help me through some of it, as well as my friends here. i will cry a lot- and then i will get a grip, and i will keep in mind that he needs this, if he is ever to take responsibility for his choices.
hugs,
chicory
i plan on hanging around here, a lot.
i am going to tell him that i wont be taking his calls, if he tries to manipulate. i plan on not taking them for a while anyway. he can leave a message, and if he has an emergency, he can call 911.i am not his savior, and he has to begin to do his own thinking.
he will be on foot, with no money- except for his food card. he will probably not walk all the way here, for it is a good distance from the shelter, and he knows the way they work. if he goes there.
i will just stay busy- and i will worry- that is normal, i think.
i will not call him- that will only set him up to try to get me to take care of him again. i want to give him the message that he can do it- that it is time for him to take care of his self, and that if he continues his on self destructive path, he will have this life style to look forward to. this is what he has earned.
that is my plan, and i know that my girls will be there to help me through some of it, as well as my friends here. i will cry a lot- and then i will get a grip, and i will keep in mind that he needs this, if he is ever to take responsibility for his choices.
hugs,
chicory
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if i know that he is in the shelter, i will not worry nearly as much. i dont know if they have room there, as they house 48 men and 12 women usually. so, that will be my greatest concern.
there may be other places that he can stay as homeless. i would like to refer to my son as stubborn, as well as alcoholic, instead of homeless. he is in a shelter cause he wont listen to anyone- has to have it his way. well, this is what his way gets him.
and i will pray - a lot!
there may be other places that he can stay as homeless. i would like to refer to my son as stubborn, as well as alcoholic, instead of homeless. he is in a shelter cause he wont listen to anyone- has to have it his way. well, this is what his way gets him.
and i will pray - a lot!
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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chicory,
it sounds from what you wrote that your son is kind of fixated on you. I mean his whole focus seems to be around how to deal with you and not any future for him or living for himself? why is that, you think? underneath the alcohol abuse must be some other problem. Has he ever talked about moving on his own? Or has he been constantly sabotaging his life in order to stay living at home?
I wonder if he'll try to spiral down words while in the shelter, only to make you feel guilty? Could you possibly get in touch with some counselor at the shelter and talk to them, so they can understand him better, and can find a better route to help him, rather than just diagnose him as a lazy alcoholic. I think he needs a lot of talking to do with a therapist. Someone that can built up his self to the point where he actually "wants" to make effort. Right now he's just being cornered into making effort. It's not something he wants for himself.
it sounds from what you wrote that your son is kind of fixated on you. I mean his whole focus seems to be around how to deal with you and not any future for him or living for himself? why is that, you think? underneath the alcohol abuse must be some other problem. Has he ever talked about moving on his own? Or has he been constantly sabotaging his life in order to stay living at home?
I wonder if he'll try to spiral down words while in the shelter, only to make you feel guilty? Could you possibly get in touch with some counselor at the shelter and talk to them, so they can understand him better, and can find a better route to help him, rather than just diagnose him as a lazy alcoholic. I think he needs a lot of talking to do with a therapist. Someone that can built up his self to the point where he actually "wants" to make effort. Right now he's just being cornered into making effort. It's not something he wants for himself.
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Join Date: May 2010
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I beg to differ with kikis suggestions. Chicory HAS taken him to counseling..she HAS considered that there is something beyond his alcoholism.He is almost 40 years old and can talk to the therapists himself and seek HIS OWN recovery.She has done much more than is good for her to do.She is finally ready to LET HIM GO and have the dignity of living his own life.In my opinion Chicory..backing off completely is the best thing for both of you.Trying to manipulate the situation defeats the purpose.It is his choice where he goes,what opportunities he utilizes, and how actively he wants to participate in bettering his life. Chicory..you've done what you could..I encourage you to stick with your plan
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Chicory,
There are many moms on this forum and also on Friends and Family of Substance Abusers. We know the pain and fear involved in having our children be addicted. You're right, it's different when it's a child vs a boyfriend or spouse. The wise people here on SR told me that I could love my son right into his grave if I wasn't careful. They helped me to understand that he had to take responsibility for his own life and his own consequences, and that it was the most loving thing I could do to push him out the door to do that.
I had to work thru all of my conflicting emotions. Here's a letter I wrote during one of my darker times. I was able to post it here on SR and got the support I needed from other parents who had gone before me
Dear Son,
It was good to talk with you on the phone last night, but it was painful at the same time. I could hear the pain and frustration in your voice, and I know that you are struggling mightily with some things in your life right now.
Although it was difficult, I said “no” again. It’s not because I don’t love you… I say NO because I love you so very much.
BECAUSE I love you, you can’t come home
BECAUSE I love you, I won’t give you money to pay your rent, your cell phone, your car insurance, your car payment OR your dealer
BECAUSE I love you, I won’t bail you out of jail
BECAUSE I love you, I won’t make excuses or lie to your employer
BECAUSE I love you, I will let you experience your own consequences
BECAUSE I love you, I will point you in the direction of recovery, of a better life…
And BECAUSE I love you, I will let you find your own way.
And most of all, BECAUSE I love you, I will continue to seek my own recovery & support from other moms of children who are struggling with their own demons because they are the only ones who can truly understand.
I love you more than you can ever know,
Mom
There are many moms on this forum and also on Friends and Family of Substance Abusers. We know the pain and fear involved in having our children be addicted. You're right, it's different when it's a child vs a boyfriend or spouse. The wise people here on SR told me that I could love my son right into his grave if I wasn't careful. They helped me to understand that he had to take responsibility for his own life and his own consequences, and that it was the most loving thing I could do to push him out the door to do that.
I had to work thru all of my conflicting emotions. Here's a letter I wrote during one of my darker times. I was able to post it here on SR and got the support I needed from other parents who had gone before me
Dear Son,
It was good to talk with you on the phone last night, but it was painful at the same time. I could hear the pain and frustration in your voice, and I know that you are struggling mightily with some things in your life right now.
Although it was difficult, I said “no” again. It’s not because I don’t love you… I say NO because I love you so very much.
BECAUSE I love you, you can’t come home
BECAUSE I love you, I won’t give you money to pay your rent, your cell phone, your car insurance, your car payment OR your dealer
BECAUSE I love you, I won’t bail you out of jail
BECAUSE I love you, I won’t make excuses or lie to your employer
BECAUSE I love you, I will let you experience your own consequences
BECAUSE I love you, I will point you in the direction of recovery, of a better life…
And BECAUSE I love you, I will let you find your own way.
And most of all, BECAUSE I love you, I will continue to seek my own recovery & support from other moms of children who are struggling with their own demons because they are the only ones who can truly understand.
I love you more than you can ever know,
Mom
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,288
Originally Posted by keepinon 
I beg to differ with kikis suggestions. Chicory HAS taken him to counseling..she HAS considered that there is something beyond his alcoholism.He is almost 40 years old and can talk to the therapists himself and seek HIS OWN recovery.She has done much more than is good for her to do.She is finally ready to LET HIM GO and have the dignity of living his own life.In my opinion Chicory..backing off completely is the best thing for both of you.Trying to manipulate the situation defeats the purpose.It is his choice where he goes,what opportunities he utilizes, and how actively he wants to participate in bettering his life. Chicory..you've done what you could..I encourage you to stick with your plan
If there's more than just alcoholism to deal with, he may need extra assistance. It would be good for them to know.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: central coast, ca
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There is no way of knowing what his underlying problems are as he is in active addiction. I have learned to trust the professionals and let them do their jobs. That's what they are trained to do.Most 40 year old's mommies do not talk to their therapist behind their back.Not healthy.He is a grown man and is OWED the dignity of no interference. It has taken Chicory a LONG time to get to this realization. I fully support her plan to let him do it himself. An Alnon DoN'T..don't keep checking up on the alcoholic.Also don't do for someone what they can do for themselves.If I was a social worker/therapist/addiction counselor and a 40 year olds mother came to me..I would pretty much know where the problem was stemming from.
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I'd like to remind everyone that the best way to help one another is to offer our own personal experience, strength and hope along with positive support. Personal debates might be better served in PM's.
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Originally Posted by chicory
if i know that he is in the shelter, i will not worry nearly as much.
It hurts my heart to see the devastating effects on her health, both physical and mental, from worry. What a price to pay for an emotion that does nothing to change the situation at hand.
You are allowing your worry to be controlled by your son's circumstances (and alcoholism), dear. You are hinging your reality off of him. You do in fact have the power to take charge of your life in that area too.
My 32 year old AD will most likely never seek recovery. My grandchildren have/still are paying the consequences.
My mother gets 4 hours of sleep a night. It's been that way for years over the situation with AD and the children.
I sleep well at night.
I again reminded my mom the other day during a phone call that if I feel worry creeping in, I close my eyes and envision a big pair of hands-God's loving hands. I put all that worry in those hands and let it go.
Her reply? "I can't just do that!"
It's not that she can't. She won't.
She's comfortable with worrying regardless of the consequences to her health. She defines herself by her excessive worry and hinging her reality off of others.
Dad supports this mindset sadly enough, and has often said that she is a martyr who has earned her place in heaven through all the suffering and worry she has endured.
Is change uncomfortable? Certainly.
Is change possible? Certainly.
A lifetime of ingrained emotions and reactions doesn't get changed overnight.
It takes time and repetition.
God is either everything, or he is nothing.
Who would you be without all that worry?
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Join Date: Mar 2002
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Chicory,
Worry and guilt kept me paralyzed. The first step for me was knowing that there was no action I could take that would change anything for my son's circumstances. The reason I knew that is because I tried everything several times over many years. I started speaking out loud to myself. "I've tried that 10 times and that didn't work. It won't work now". After I accepted that my actions wouldn't help I started putting my worry and guilt under a microscope to analyze it.
How does worry solve any of the problems? Is it magically going to change something? Is there any kind of power in worry?
How does guilt solve any of the problems? Can I change the past? Can I change some of the mistakes I made when raising my son? Can I change some of the harsh things I said to my son? Is guilt serving a purpose? What purpose?
When I really accepted that both these emotions were serving no purpose I was able to give myself permission to stop the dysfunctional worry and guilt. I kept telling myself I was shoveling smoke and it was wasting my life and energy. It was robbing me of my days which I could never get back again. I started yelling "NO" to myself every time I would worry or feel guilty and try to distract myself. Each time I felt these emotions I would ask myself how it was helping to solve the problem for my son.
Worry and guilt were another form of control for me. It was something I could do in a powerless situation and it was useless.
•Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable
•Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
I am powerless in my son's situation and all the worry and guilt won't change that. I work hard to treat him with respect and let him know how much I love him when I talk to him on the phone. I set good boundaries to keep myself from harm. I don't allow him to use me as his trash can. Dumping on me is just as useless for him as worry is for me.
My son was sober for a year and just drank again. I saw him twice this year when I knew he was sober and I would be safe. I will always keep my distance until I see some real recovery and not just abstinence. I will never let him live with me again and put myself in that situation again. It is so much harder to put them out homeless than to just say no in the first place.
I do the next right thing one day at a time. I get knocked off my feet at times. I lose my balance and forget everything in a crisis. There are many here who help me up and brush me off and set me back on the path.
My son's addiction put me between a rock and a hard place and forced me into recovery. I had a lot to work on and a lot to let go of in all areas of my life. I still struggle with a bad ACA brain and PTSD, but I've never felt so content.
There are many here standing with you. Remember that when you are making these tough decisions.
Worry and guilt kept me paralyzed. The first step for me was knowing that there was no action I could take that would change anything for my son's circumstances. The reason I knew that is because I tried everything several times over many years. I started speaking out loud to myself. "I've tried that 10 times and that didn't work. It won't work now". After I accepted that my actions wouldn't help I started putting my worry and guilt under a microscope to analyze it.
How does worry solve any of the problems? Is it magically going to change something? Is there any kind of power in worry?
How does guilt solve any of the problems? Can I change the past? Can I change some of the mistakes I made when raising my son? Can I change some of the harsh things I said to my son? Is guilt serving a purpose? What purpose?
When I really accepted that both these emotions were serving no purpose I was able to give myself permission to stop the dysfunctional worry and guilt. I kept telling myself I was shoveling smoke and it was wasting my life and energy. It was robbing me of my days which I could never get back again. I started yelling "NO" to myself every time I would worry or feel guilty and try to distract myself. Each time I felt these emotions I would ask myself how it was helping to solve the problem for my son.
Worry and guilt were another form of control for me. It was something I could do in a powerless situation and it was useless.
•Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable
•Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
I am powerless in my son's situation and all the worry and guilt won't change that. I work hard to treat him with respect and let him know how much I love him when I talk to him on the phone. I set good boundaries to keep myself from harm. I don't allow him to use me as his trash can. Dumping on me is just as useless for him as worry is for me.
My son was sober for a year and just drank again. I saw him twice this year when I knew he was sober and I would be safe. I will always keep my distance until I see some real recovery and not just abstinence. I will never let him live with me again and put myself in that situation again. It is so much harder to put them out homeless than to just say no in the first place.
I do the next right thing one day at a time. I get knocked off my feet at times. I lose my balance and forget everything in a crisis. There are many here who help me up and brush me off and set me back on the path.
My son's addiction put me between a rock and a hard place and forced me into recovery. I had a lot to work on and a lot to let go of in all areas of my life. I still struggle with a bad ACA brain and PTSD, but I've never felt so content.
There are many here standing with you. Remember that when you are making these tough decisions.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,497
Such a wonderful bunch you are. this helps so much, to hear all of your stories.
Has anyone put their child (grown) out, with no where, no car, no friends and no money?
it hurts beyond what i feel able to bear.
he is acting out today, as i reminded him that he is leaving this weekend. he says he wont go to a shelter, and that he hates me. saying a lot of ridiculous things that he probably convinces his self are true.
It hurts to see him hurt, that i wont help him , when he sees his self as down and out. he has a strong denial going on. i dont know if he even knows what normal is.
he did not always live with me . i dont think he feels a sense of attachment to me. he attaches his self to anyone that will let him live with them.
this is so hard.
Has anyone put their child (grown) out, with no where, no car, no friends and no money?
it hurts beyond what i feel able to bear.
he is acting out today, as i reminded him that he is leaving this weekend. he says he wont go to a shelter, and that he hates me. saying a lot of ridiculous things that he probably convinces his self are true.
It hurts to see him hurt, that i wont help him , when he sees his self as down and out. he has a strong denial going on. i dont know if he even knows what normal is.
he did not always live with me . i dont think he feels a sense of attachment to me. he attaches his self to anyone that will let him live with them.
this is so hard.
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Location: Kansas
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Originally Posted by chicory
Has anyone put their child (grown) out, with no where, no car, no friends and no money?
My AD hasn't ever had a car in her life.
She hasn't had a job since she was 17.
She's a clever girl.
She's managed to survive on her own these last 7 years since I showed her the door.
I have zero regrets.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,288
chicory, you said he hasn't always lived with you. who did he live before he came to live with you? going to his fathers is still out of the question? I know they will set a curfiew, but it's better than the homeless shelter?
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I put my son out homeless with no car. I did go to Wal-Mart first and get him a jacket, backpack, beanie to keep his head warm, gloves, shoes, and some food items to take with him. That was my way of feeling better about the whole thing. No money ever though. I took the tags off of everything so he didn't know where I bought it.
One other time he was dangerous and I had to leave him out in the cold rain all night too drunk to help himself. I wasn't sure he would make it. The police wouldn't help me. I handed him out a sandwich and cup of coffee in the morning and sent him walking.
He never lived with me again after that. It was really hard, but we both made it.
One other time he was dangerous and I had to leave him out in the cold rain all night too drunk to help himself. I wasn't sure he would make it. The police wouldn't help me. I handed him out a sandwich and cup of coffee in the morning and sent him walking.
He never lived with me again after that. It was really hard, but we both made it.
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Kiki,
thanks for your post. I will explain a few things that you mention.
He is not fixated on me, i dont think. he has not lived with me all his life, just when others would not let him stay anymore. he stayed with his dad, his sister, his aunt, several of his friends, and a friends ex-wife, in a warehouse that they owned and renovated. He has only once had an apt, and i set him up in that, and paid most of his bills until he lost his job in construction. he missed a few too many days, and they got rid of him.
He is very bright. but drinks . he loves his time on computer so much, that it even came between him and his girl, tho it did not matter to them, they were the party couple. she broke it off, and i think it is cause he drinks. she never liked to be with him when he drank. he does not admit that either.
i think he definately sabotages jobs, and opportunities. so he can be free.
and i do think there is an underlying problem, but he wont go to counselling. i have tried. he is the most stubborn person i have ever known, and most everyone gives up trying to talk to him, for he has a ridiculous system of excuses for every thing that has not done in his life.
I think that the people at the shelter will know that he is not just a lazy alcoholic. they will hear the denial, and they will know something is amiss in his thinking.
i am hoping that his survival instincts will kick in, and he will not be able to just take advantage of someone else. i hope that he will do what he has never done. to make his own plans and not need anyone to force him to do anything.
you are right- he does not want to be homeless. he does not want to be without the computer. he does not want to have to do anything he does not wish to do. but life is not like that, except when you can live with someone and when you can make excuses, and pretend that you are doing all you can. i dont think he even knows how to try hard at anything.
i am sure that they have seen a lot of people like my son. they will know when they talk to him that he has some real denial going. you can hear it in the first 10 minutes of talking to him.
i gotta get away from it tho. i love him so much. he was my first born, and i was a stay home mom. he was my pride and joy. my beautiful smart little boy, who could read simple words at 2 1/2 years old! who scared me one night, coming home late from his job at the video store, when he was 17. he was late, cause he went to get me a rose , for mothers day. i still have it, pressed in my Bible.
i am so angry about alcohol ruining our loved ones lives. i am thankful that some do recover. it is so good to hear of those here, who are recovered, and how thankful that they are to be able to wake up without feeling bad.
i am not sure of how much is my sons sickness and how much is mine anymore. he assures me that i am going off the deep end, by thinking that he is doing something wrong. that the economy is the problem.
i could go on and on, but it doesn't matter - i know that he has been not treating me right here, no matter what excuse he has.
hugs,
chicory
thanks for your post. I will explain a few things that you mention.
He is not fixated on me, i dont think. he has not lived with me all his life, just when others would not let him stay anymore. he stayed with his dad, his sister, his aunt, several of his friends, and a friends ex-wife, in a warehouse that they owned and renovated. He has only once had an apt, and i set him up in that, and paid most of his bills until he lost his job in construction. he missed a few too many days, and they got rid of him.
He is very bright. but drinks . he loves his time on computer so much, that it even came between him and his girl, tho it did not matter to them, they were the party couple. she broke it off, and i think it is cause he drinks. she never liked to be with him when he drank. he does not admit that either.
i think he definately sabotages jobs, and opportunities. so he can be free.
and i do think there is an underlying problem, but he wont go to counselling. i have tried. he is the most stubborn person i have ever known, and most everyone gives up trying to talk to him, for he has a ridiculous system of excuses for every thing that has not done in his life.
I think that the people at the shelter will know that he is not just a lazy alcoholic. they will hear the denial, and they will know something is amiss in his thinking.
i am hoping that his survival instincts will kick in, and he will not be able to just take advantage of someone else. i hope that he will do what he has never done. to make his own plans and not need anyone to force him to do anything.
you are right- he does not want to be homeless. he does not want to be without the computer. he does not want to have to do anything he does not wish to do. but life is not like that, except when you can live with someone and when you can make excuses, and pretend that you are doing all you can. i dont think he even knows how to try hard at anything.
i am sure that they have seen a lot of people like my son. they will know when they talk to him that he has some real denial going. you can hear it in the first 10 minutes of talking to him.
i gotta get away from it tho. i love him so much. he was my first born, and i was a stay home mom. he was my pride and joy. my beautiful smart little boy, who could read simple words at 2 1/2 years old! who scared me one night, coming home late from his job at the video store, when he was 17. he was late, cause he went to get me a rose , for mothers day. i still have it, pressed in my Bible.
i am so angry about alcohol ruining our loved ones lives. i am thankful that some do recover. it is so good to hear of those here, who are recovered, and how thankful that they are to be able to wake up without feeling bad.
i am not sure of how much is my sons sickness and how much is mine anymore. he assures me that i am going off the deep end, by thinking that he is doing something wrong. that the economy is the problem.
i could go on and on, but it doesn't matter - i know that he has been not treating me right here, no matter what excuse he has.
hugs,
chicory
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Location: Waterford MI
Posts: 4,202
Has anyone put their child (grown) out, with no where, no car, no friends and no money?
He tried to guilt me, "you abandoned me as a kid, and you are abandoning me now"
I told him, "I gave you a place to live and you broke the rules. That is it."
He did have a car, but he soon lost it, because he went to jail, and then a diversion program. I could not and would not take care of the car or any of his responsibilities.
He just got out, called me, and sounds like he is on the right track again.
He can do this chicory. Believe me, your son can do this.
Nothing he says means anything (the hurtful things) because it is his addicted brain talking to you and trying to keep things as they are. But that keeps you down and miserable. You have paid your dues. You have done what you could.
Time for both of you to find out what he can do by himself.
Beth
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