I read that it takes 7 days of no alcohol in one's body (for those that are alcoholics) before they begin feeling their own feelings. Many do not deal with their feelings in healthy ways even if they can feel them (after attempts at sobriety, etc.). Reading that helped me understand that my AH truly is without feeling. I also relate to what you wrote about being demonized. Until recently I hadn't thought of myself as a scapegoat for my husband, but I started seeing a lot of correlation between being demonized and being a scapegoat.

Is that pretty accurate, seven days sober to begin experiencing their emotions again? I'm really interested in how that might work. I can't imagine not experiencing my feelings so I have no idea what it might be like when they come back after having been gone. Anyone able to tell me more about this? I talked to ABF tonight and asked him if he'd be willing to get sober for a few weeks so that if we were going to part ways for good that he would be making that decision while he had access to his feelings. Of course he does not admit that he can't access his feelings... I told him that if we end now I don't want it to be like the last time when he didn't get in touch with his feelings until I was dating someone new. I have no idea if this idea of mine has merit. And I'm not at all sure if he could/would stop drinking for a trial period even if it were only a couple weeks.

I don't want this it to be happening to me. I'm depressed and miserable. I'm having trouble seeing my way through this situation. When I look at the possibilities for my life after I get through this they all look..........lonely. I didn't want this to be my life. I turned 45 this year. I never imagined my life would be anything like this. Crying again and staring at the screen of my computer. I feel hopeless.

Dear Jaguar,

I'm sorry you're going through this. I agree that it helps to remember that a person addicted to alcohol is insane. If someone were having a psychotic episode and ranting about--I don't know--the pink elephants following them around, you wouldn't bother engaging. It's the same with someone who's been taken over by alcohol.

Not that it makes it hurt any less!

I wouldn't bother with the threats. He wouldn't really understand them anyway.

It might help you to think that it doesn't have to be forever--you could just pull away, take a break for a year or so. At the end of the year he might have pulled himself round, who knows? Stranger things have happened. Or on the other hand, you might find you've moved on.

I do not believe this is true, Jaguar. You just keep on a-comin here, ok?

And....


WELCOME

We care about you

I don't care whatever the cause, booze, depression, etc. The fact that he has been physically, verbally and emotionally abusive with you and you are trying to rationalize it is troubling. No woman should have to put up with that and it usually escalates. It isn't about his disease, it is about the fact that he abuses you. Period. Please don't rationalize it think it will change. It may or may not but the point is he is that way NOW and you need to get out. Emotional and verbal abuse is still abuse and just as damaging. Are you in any type of therapy? Have you ever considred looking into a woman's group? support group for example?

Hi Jaguar,

I'm so sorry that you're going through this and I relate to a lot of what you're saying. I was in a relationship with a man I would have described as a "rare gem" too. He was an alcoholic and my "rare gem" didn't ever physically abuse me but he verbally and emotionally abused me before openly cheating on me and accusing me of being "paraniod" for noticing.

There was a great post on here recently - I think it was from Barbwire. Me, personally, that "zing" that you're describing - the feeling that he's irreplaceable, the chemistry - I felt all of that too. Because I was trained to confuse alcoholism with love as a child. I finally realized that, for me at least, I didn't love him "despite" the disease but because of it. I too would have said a year ago that I loved my "rare gem" who was a rare gem aside from (XYZ ...) But I had it backwards. There is no way that I would have been as hooked on a relationship that didn't have the disease of alcoholism underpinning it. Those butterflies in the stomach that I've been mistaking for "love" for yeeeears, that "chemistry" is anxiety, triggered by many years of experience with alcoholism dating back to early childhood.

I don't know if this is too much to get your head around right now. But try to consider that the "aside from" stuff is actually what is keeping you hooked. And that there will be more of it to come. I don't know whether this is your first experience with alcoholism but for me, my reaction to that relationship had deep roots that I'm currently working through.

And on his being able to "feel" his emotions after a week sober - take into account the fact that depending on how much he's been drinking, he may well go through alcoholic withdrawal. It's worth hitting the newcomers threads on here to see what kind of shape people can be in after a week sober. Undoing the damage of this disease takes serious work and time - and you have to really want it.

Hugs,

SL.

My AH was in intensive outpatient treatment this summer and I went once a week for 3 hours. It was there that feelings were discussed by the therapists. I can't say that they don't have feelings at all, but just that, as I'm sure you know, a drugged brain does not function the same as a brain not drugged. The best I could get out of the discussion is an alcoholic can be unaware of how they are numbing or escaping their feelings. As an example, they can be happy and want to drink and sad and want to drink. Dealing with the sadness at any depth (e.g. Taking time to understand why they are sad or dealing with the sadness in a healthy way) is all bypassed via drugging the brain. I hope that makes sense and is helpful to you in understanding another reason why the alcoholic is different from you (and why you notice that they don't seem to feel like you know you do).

Hi Jag

I have been following your post and I am so sorry about your situation.

Your initial question was - are there success stories, can a marriage survive?

My backgraound short and sweet - my RAH raging A, we meet, fell in love married, after 4 years I was totally done. I had no idea who this crazy person was and why I was with him. I thought he would just stop drinking, what was the problem? right? Nope it doesn't work that way. We went through all the typical insanity - it was textbook.

So I left him cold turkey, no contact for 6 months & filed for D. A turn of events brought us back together. He has been sober for 16 months. And despite some issues with commucation and some left over resentments blah blah blah. He is a different person - a sober person.

HE wanted sobriety - whether that came from hitting his rock bottom, losing his family or a combination or just finally being sick of being sick. He made the choice stop drinking.

I had nothing to do with it. There were no ultimatums, no threats, no minipulating. He wanted it. And with his sobriety we became a family again.

We have our struggles. Sometime really bid ones. I still have to deal with a lot of old pain and with the reality that he may relapse. It is not easy, but I am happy with my life now.

The pain I have been through has made strong enough to handle anything (mostly) that comes my way. I like that part.

And he takes care of himself and his sobriety - it is not my responsibility.

That is the only way it can be Jag. Nothing you say or do will make him choose you over his addition.

Get your sh*t together, put the hurt away and be done.

You never know what can happen - but take care of you first!

HUG HUG:ghug3

I am sorry that you are feeling so bad, Jaguar. I found a lot of helpful information not only here, but in Al Anon, and the AA Big Book. Chapter 5 in particular, which you can find on line clarified a lot for me about the disease of alcoholism.

As many have said, first and foremost you must take care of yourself, and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about your A's behavior, sobriety, or recovery or lack thereof.

I did find, though, that understanding more about the disease helped me move on. I was able to let go when I understood.

It takes a whole lot longer than a 1 week without alcohol for an A to feel the way a normal person feels. It could take years.

But as I read your posts, I remember how confused, and uncertain I felt before I left my ex ABF. I feel much better now. I love him, but so what? It was killing me.

Dear Jaguar,
this is a really helpful thread, thankyou for starting it! Your story is very similar to mine!
On/off with alc boyfriend for 8 years...been through so many "no contacts"..cant believe we are still seeing each other. When we break up it gives him free riegn to drink and indulge freely in his other pastime of online porn. He has that "x-factor" for me..emotionally dependent on him..scared i'll never meet anyone else..end up a lonely mid-life woman.
He has alc neuropathy now, gave up for 28 days said his walking did not improve so back to the whisky bottle. He is an isolater..we never go anywhere except club for cheap meal twice in 3 months since latest reunion..all he does is work, complain how tired he is and watch reruns on DVD'S..so deadly boring. If I give him another stop drinking ultimatum he will just go back to his "fall-back" girl..then i get sick with jealousy. How do I stop this painful cycle? I love and care for him..very painful watching his health deterioate.
I used to drink with him but have stopped for nearly 90 days..hate the smell of whisky and cigarettes.

From what I know and heard from al anon and aa, it takes up to 2 yrs once they stop drinking to feel real emotions.
They may some emotions after 7 days sober, but not healthy emotions.

Frag: My last relationship was like that, start, stop, no contact etc. My ex was not boring though, I loved his company. We had many great times, but we both became emotionally dependent on one another.
We are no longer together, but both work our separate programs because this break up shook us to our core.
Frag, maybe you can look into getting into Al Anon, It's helps detach and look at your own shortcomings.
It's easy to look at the addict and forget about our own messes.

I believe there are success stories, I believe mine is, but my definition of success is much different now from what it used to be.
My previous definition of success was my AH coming to his senses, understanind all that I was saying for years, being trully, deeply apologetic for everything he has done, all the hurt he has caused me, and of course quiting drinking for good, with me having some guaranty that is going to last for ever, and off we ride into the sunset, me feeling safe, protected. (please notice all this is external, nothing about me).
Here it is what really happened, and to me since I worked on my own recovery (moving to internal) this qulifies as success: 4 months ago he nearly died from liver cirrhosis, and stopped drinking since than, working on his sobriety. Great. For him. I am pleased for him. He is a different person from what he has been for years. Still, with being sober for nearly 4 months I think he still doesn't have the faintest idea how crazy his behaviour was and how much he has hurt me and the kids. He might get this in time or he never will. Also, if he wants to live he will stay sober, and if he doesn't than he will not.
The difference is: I don't care. I don't need validation from him. I'm staying with him now, because he is nice and caring now, he is very respectful of me and my needs. he is sharing life with me, and I like that. I like my kids having a sober dad living with us. I like watching happiness on their faces as they're larning about normal life and starting to relax. I don't feel resentment or anger towards him, I don't need him to appologize to me and convince me that everything will be great, I am a big girl, I am staying with him because it works for me now, and as for him hurting me in the past, well it was me who let him hurt me, if I removed myself from that madness he wouldn't have been able to do that.
Nowdays I am perfecty able to care for myself, I don't need anyone to protect me from life, I can do that myself. I am chosing to stay as it is good for me now, but my happiness doesn't depend on my RAH, it depends only on me. Staying with him works for me now. It comes from my strength, not my weakness.
So today we are enjoying nice life together, we laugh often, we talk a lot, we share responsiblities. Kids are happy. It will last for as long as it lasts. If it stops I'll act accordingly.
I guess my point is: for our life to become a success story 2 things needed to happen; he needed to sober up/work on his recovery and I needed to grow up/work on my own recovery.
In all honesty, if I hadn't work on my own recovery I don't think I'd be able to stay with him even now that he is sober. I'd be too resentful, too hurt, too angry, too scared of what is going to happen, etc. Working on my recovery has helped me to let go of the past, all the bad choices, both his and mine, all the madness, all the fears, it helped me leave the past in the past and just enjoy the present moment in life.
And for that I am extremely grateful, as now I am finally happy, regardless of anyone else.
Life is good, as long as we learn to appreciate all of its gray areas.

All that being sad, I wouldn't advise anyone to stay in relationship with active A, especially where there is a abuse involved.
Take care of yourself

I wish you well

Thanks everybody. I had my first appt. with my new counselor on Friday. That helped. It's a start.

I've been sad and feeling so incredibly angry it's like I'm insane with the anger. It just comes spewing out in waves. I usually have a lot of control but lately I can't seem to hold onto it. I just want to scream and scream and scream or break things or smash walls or whatever. The amount of pain in me, it's so black, that it scares me sometimes.

It's football season. I really like football and so does he and we always watched the games together. It was something we shared that was special. We'd make dip and have chips and snacks and kick back together and it was wonderful. I haven't watched a game since the season started. I can't stand the idea of watching without him. I don't want the reminder. I don't even want to hear it in the background. I can't believe he's sitting around watching without me and he doesn't even miss me being there.

I'm not doing very well so far with detachment. I keep hoping he'll call or that he'll miss me.

Thanks you for your honesty, it takes courage. Wish I could help... all I can say is my experience has been very similar to yours, and his reactions have been very similar. There are patterns, here.

With him, my world shrunk. Job, friends, everything else sort of tagged along that sickening ride. Most of the worst was secret. The only witness to my experience, the only person who saw me in all those years, never actually saw me. It was like looking at a reflection in a funhouse mirror.

I felt crazy a lot of the time. We lived in two realities. And our break-up has been the same, two realities. Mine doesn't miss me either, I don't think. I feel similarly to you... rejected; demeaned, again. Mine broke it off - I felt robbed of the empowerment of making that decision. And in our relationship, I often felt contempt from him. (And experienced similar abuse.)

Is that a way to live? It's not rational to want that. Hard to help it, I know. Habit. Investment. The weirdly intense bond that comes from all the crazy. Hope, the real killer.

Try this, maybe it'll help for a little while. Make a list of all the things you hated about living with him. Turn him into a monster. Later you can let yourself remember nicer things. Whenever you start missing him, remember something awful.

Can you maybe get away from your immediate environment for a couple of days? Stay with safe (i.e., non-judgemental) family or friends? Maybe some people who will remind you of who you were before you got caught up in all this? And who you can be again?

I've found it hugely, hugely helpful to be around people who value me. Working out what it all means, etc, will take longer. It's been a month since my break-up and I still don't know my a$$ from my elbow. But I have been reminded by my friends that I'm funny, intelligent, talented; that the ambitions I'd had weren't delusional; that my take on the news matters. When did you hear that from your guy?

You've been hiding for such a long time. You're still there.

Surprising how fast I start to feel like "me" again when I'm not around him. In just a few days I begin to perk up, more energy, my head clears.

He insists I am staying away because I'm cheating on him. He must know better, but I guess he loves pushing my buttons. He still runs me down every day. I'll wake up and there will be a text waiting for me accusing me of being some other guy. I don't even know any other men. It's insane. It really is truly insane. He's insane. Defending myself from his attacks and insults is exhausting. His absolutely freaky nonstop paranoid obsession about cheating is bizarre. He's been on this kick now for 18, maybe 20 months. And I've spent most of that time trying to reason with him and prove my innocence.

He makes it sound like he can't stop saying these things to me, like he has no control over it. Oh, he has no control over his feelings either. You see, the way I handle his attacking me makes him hate me. If I would handle being attacked differently then he wouldn't hate me and he'd eventually stop attacking me. Huh?

He's so nuts that's it's getting easier to practice detachment and stay away from him because he is not recognizable as himself. I'm not staying away from HIM, just the psycho who has taken over his body.

I'm tired of crying and feeling desperate. I don't want to "live" my life wishing I were dead.

He says stopping this time around won't be any more difficult than the last couple times he stopped drinking. I don't believe it. I have a sneaky suspicion that he'd like to stop already and is having a great deal of trouble doing so.

I wasn't a fan of the detachment concept. But even a small amount of distance is helping me and if nothing else changes then things are going to continue in this direction.

Reasoning and explaining are only going to get you exhausted - it hasn't made a damn bit of difference, has it? I agree, detaching from this cycle looks like your only way forward. XAH used to do something similar. I finally decided to stop engaging with his nonsense when he started - just said nope once and let him get on with his ranting. I didn't react to him at all. Co-dependent No More really helped me with this.

A word of caution though. XAH was controlling and verbally and emotionally abusive. I didn't see it at the time though. Detaching in my situation just aggravated his anger and made my situation much, much worse. Please be aware of this and if you find yourself in the same spot, call a domestic violence (doesn't need to be physical abuse) hotline for advice.

Each conversation with an active alcoholic is exhausting. The conversation goes in circles, problems are never resolved, responsibility is never taken and the cycle continues with each conversation.

This type of personality is like an energy stealer to me. I can't give enough of myself, time or energy to someone that is constantly taking, taking, taking away from me - and not offering any positive energy in return. Energy stealer is what I call them.

In my healthier relationships, there is a sharing of energy, respect and cooperation. Those are the relationships that I am seeking to participate in as I grow in recovery.

I recommend boundaries or no contact with the alcoholic. A healthy boundary would be stating that you refuse to engage in this type of conversation (accusations) and will be hanging up if any more is said. The follow through is to say: Goodbye and hang up if more accusations are thrown your way. Repeat as needed.

Going no contact would prevent any opportunity to steal your energy or suck you into drama. Establish no contact for as long as needed to restore your energy, self-love and serenity.

(((Jag))) you are not alone. You are important. Your life matters!

Hi Jag. I am a recovered alcoholic/addict. On my first attempt at recovery, I had been married for several years, and I managed to remain sober for five years before relapsing. Without getting into lots of detail, I know now that my relapsing (for five years) had mostly to do with my inability to resolve my own issues of self loathing, and my unwillingness to let go of a relationship upon which I'd become dependent for all my self esteem.

I regard "codependency" as an addiction to adrenaline....a very powerful and dangerous drug, but one that produces a very seductive "high"...along with a subsequent "crash" often into depression. It is the fight or flight drug, designed to address potential threats (which is why it is so often accompanied by anger). Life via risk taking, rescuing others, crisis management, hypervigilance, hypercontrol issues. tilting at windmills (ending in angry despair), etc. etc. It is the drug of choice for many in the helping professions, like nurses, firefighters and police. It is a way for a person to escape focus on themselves by being "other centered," disguising the real motive (escape) by being the helpful, supportive, stable, trustworthy, ever loving, often martyrd mate. If I have a sense of "who I am is not enough" (shame), then I will depend on what I do to feel ok. Codeps tend to be humans doing rather than human beings, performing (quite well, usually) to get their needs met.

Who better to provide crisis and chaos to be managed than an alcoholic mate? And codeps have just as difficult a time "detaching" from their "drug of choice" as do alcoholics/addicts. Occasional contact for you would be like me having an occasional glass of wine with dinner. Nothing but trouble. Total abstinence was required of me in order to recover, and will be necessary IMO for you as well.

My recovery depends on my not drinking, but it is not ABOUT not drinking. It is about using the 12 step process to develop a new design for living, one in which I have learned to be spiritually empowered to regulate my feelings from the inside, instead of from the outside. I no longer blame others. I try not to complain. And I mind my own business. No one has the power to "make me" feel any particular way without my permission, but it took me a long time to be able to accept responsibility for my own feelings and behaviors. "My disease made me do it" can only go so far, and is an excuse that would ever keep me sick.

And here's the crux of the matter. In our dysfunctional addictive relationship, my wife was the "good mother," always supportive, loving, responsible, reasonable, etc. etc. I was the "bad boy," the designated problem. My recovery ideally provided a new way of being....a way to "grow up" and become an adult person. But my wife insisted on retaining her role as the good mother to my bad child. I continued relapsing until I left her after an 18 year marriage. She would never entertain the notion of needing her own recovery, of attending alanon (or whatever), so I had the choice of staying in a relationship role that required me to feel guilty, ashamed, less than, incompetent, immature, etc.....or getting out of it. Until I left, I drank. Being the "identified problem" is not conducive to being happy, joyous and free.

It's been fifteen years now, and I've not had a drink since I left my wife.

And no mistake here....my drinking was not her fault. She didn't make me drunk or sick. She was not responsible for my bad behavior. The relationship dynamic was just too powerful for me to overcome without her joining me in the recovery process. And I'm convinced that anyone in relationship with a recovering/recovered addict would be well advised to see to their own recovery as well. In the addictive relationship, it always take two to do the dance.

adding a brief anecdote: I have an alcoholic friend whose wife divorced him during the time he was drinking. She joined alanon. Sometime later he joined AA. Four years after the divorce, they remarried, and have been living in wedded harmony (if not bliss) now for twenty years. It's rare, but possible.

blessings
zenbear