They Literally Have Holes in Their Brains
Curled up in a good book...
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,542
I wish I had seen these pictures a few years ago. Living in hope for years that the man I met and loved would come back to me. If I had seen something like this, I may have realised that it wasn't physically possible for that to happen! I sometimes wonder if I would run into him at some point in the future and he would be the man I met all those years ago and I would regret leaving. Hah! Not actually possible. Alcohol has destroyed that man. Killed him by destroying bits of his brain.
Makes it easier to let go. It makes me feel it wasn't all my fault. I shouldered so much of the responsibility/blame in my marriage. I took the abuse, I believed him over myself. And he had a brain full of holes that he put there himself. I knew he was destroying me, I didn't realise just how much he was destroying him too. How daft was I?! Well, I'm older and (I hope) much, much wiser.
The point of my post? To say thanks Bucyn for this thread. I wish I had seen is so much earlier. Maybe someone here, at the point I was at a few years ago, will see this and come to see the reality of their situation much faster than I did.
Makes it easier to let go. It makes me feel it wasn't all my fault. I shouldered so much of the responsibility/blame in my marriage. I took the abuse, I believed him over myself. And he had a brain full of holes that he put there himself. I knew he was destroying me, I didn't realise just how much he was destroying him too. How daft was I?! Well, I'm older and (I hope) much, much wiser.
The point of my post? To say thanks Bucyn for this thread. I wish I had seen is so much earlier. Maybe someone here, at the point I was at a few years ago, will see this and come to see the reality of their situation much faster than I did.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: central coast, ca
Posts: 1,652
Im with Chino and Jazzman (which may make me an alkie apologist )(whatever that means). This is not new information, I love the analogy to smokers lungs..maybe 1 in 1000 are going to do something after seeing it. We have always known drugs and alcohol kill brain cells leaving you "fried" or "rumdumb". As for how this affects me, the mother of an addict..kind of a no brainer her head is a mess. I'm just glad there is a possibility to recover for both her and I and I think that's what lots of here on the site are choosing to focus on.
Proud Neonephalist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Coast BC Canada
Posts: 1,141
So much of what appears on a SPECT image has to do with how the computer has been programmed to interpret data, and what questions or images were shown to the subject during the 20 minutes or so it takes for the whole procedure.
Here's a quote from a book review on the subject;
"The brain of this heavy caffeine and cigarette user looks in an even worse state than the drug users and heavy drinkers."
See the images here;
Pictures Reveal Shocking Effects Alcohol, Cigarettes and Caffeine Have On The Brain | Impact Lab
All current and former alcoholics cannot be painted with the same brush...just like all cigarette smokers and coffee drinkers shouldn't be grouped in with the down and dirtiest near death alcoholics based on a couple SPECT images.
Murray
Here's a quote from a book review on the subject;
"The brain of this heavy caffeine and cigarette user looks in an even worse state than the drug users and heavy drinkers."
See the images here;
Pictures Reveal Shocking Effects Alcohol, Cigarettes and Caffeine Have On The Brain | Impact Lab
All current and former alcoholics cannot be painted with the same brush...just like all cigarette smokers and coffee drinkers shouldn't be grouped in with the down and dirtiest near death alcoholics based on a couple SPECT images.
Murray
Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 5
"So again...
Any does anyone have any insight, observation, advice, or support, which would help a person who is dealing with someone who has this self-inflicted brain damage?"
"I would think it would help friends and family feel less guilty, or maybe does it make you (the friends and family) feel more guilty?"
This is very true for me. As a Codie survivor who has been away from exAH and other alkies for 12 years, these scans were a real "ah ha" and affirmation moment for me all these years later. This is science, tangible, and understandable. I did have a bit more peace for my own reaction to crazy alcoholic behavior.
---
"Would these pictures be helpful in divorce and courtroom situations, particularly in dealing with custody (if ever it could get past the HPPA rules)? "
Oh man, if I could have shown these 5 or 10 years ago, mayby my DD wouldn't have had to go through watching her AF attempt suicide in a drunken stupor before I could have her live in a clean environment with me.
-----
"When I see these pictures it makes me feel both more understanding and sympathetic for AND more repelled by the alkie. "
mmm, no, I left sympathy behind some time ago, didn't bring that back. Did make me feel more repelled, as it reinforced the need to stay away from users and abusers and leave them to professional Drs and therapists.
-------
"Does looking at pictures like this make the problem seem more hopeless, or make it easier to walk away?"
For me, it makes their problem/disease a little less hopeless, in that after a year of sobriety, blood flow and use of brain tissue returned and began to heal; concrete evidence. Of course, this doesn't mean the person is not just a jerk to begin with, or they are over their core emotional issues, but that's another rant.
I feel that overall, the images helped me to see in science what I already know in my mind, but I appreciated the extra affirmation. It's an extra kick in the pants to keep protecting myself and my kids. For myself, I have come to realize that there is no room for an active abusive alcoholic in my sane life. I practice a zero tolerance policy. This is a great evidence as to why that is true.
Any does anyone have any insight, observation, advice, or support, which would help a person who is dealing with someone who has this self-inflicted brain damage?"
"I would think it would help friends and family feel less guilty, or maybe does it make you (the friends and family) feel more guilty?"
This is very true for me. As a Codie survivor who has been away from exAH and other alkies for 12 years, these scans were a real "ah ha" and affirmation moment for me all these years later. This is science, tangible, and understandable. I did have a bit more peace for my own reaction to crazy alcoholic behavior.
---
"Would these pictures be helpful in divorce and courtroom situations, particularly in dealing with custody (if ever it could get past the HPPA rules)? "
Oh man, if I could have shown these 5 or 10 years ago, mayby my DD wouldn't have had to go through watching her AF attempt suicide in a drunken stupor before I could have her live in a clean environment with me.
-----
"When I see these pictures it makes me feel both more understanding and sympathetic for AND more repelled by the alkie. "
mmm, no, I left sympathy behind some time ago, didn't bring that back. Did make me feel more repelled, as it reinforced the need to stay away from users and abusers and leave them to professional Drs and therapists.
-------
"Does looking at pictures like this make the problem seem more hopeless, or make it easier to walk away?"
For me, it makes their problem/disease a little less hopeless, in that after a year of sobriety, blood flow and use of brain tissue returned and began to heal; concrete evidence. Of course, this doesn't mean the person is not just a jerk to begin with, or they are over their core emotional issues, but that's another rant.
I feel that overall, the images helped me to see in science what I already know in my mind, but I appreciated the extra affirmation. It's an extra kick in the pants to keep protecting myself and my kids. For myself, I have come to realize that there is no room for an active abusive alcoholic in my sane life. I practice a zero tolerance policy. This is a great evidence as to why that is true.
Last edited by apia02; 09-08-2010 at 02:48 PM. Reason: call out the quotes with blue
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
dismissed, diverted, smothered with self absorption, condescended to or given false assurance
Do any of the recovering alcoholics, active alcoholics or apologists for alcoholics here have any support, insight, or words of advice for those who are dealing with spouses and loved ones who have inflicted brain damage upon themselves via alcohol?
Yes, things might be normal again someday, but today's not the day, and how do I cope in the meantime with a person who's inflicting or has inflicted this brain damage upon themselves? Do any of you have advice for that?
In fact, I am not angry but sitting here rolling my eyes, saying: "How predictable alkies are, same old, same old, I wonder if that self-inflicted brain damage can explain it..."
What do other people think about using pictures like this as a tool to open discussion and understanding?
Would these pictures be helpful in divorce and courtroom situations, particularly in dealing with custody (if ever it could get past the HPPA rules)?
How about in marital therapy?
Does looking at pictures like this make the problem seem more hopeless, or make it easier to walk away?
Do they help to convince friends and family of alkies that it really and truly is not their fault (however much the alkie insists it is),
and that there really is NOTHING they can do either to control or to fix it?
I suppose it could have the opposite effect: make the people coping with loved ones who inflict this sort of damage on their brains feel more panicked--the feeling, I MUST help, I NEED to help more?
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: California
Posts: 182
Oh lordy ... the coffee and smokes ... my brain must look like swiss cheese... suprised I can even write a sentence. 
In all seriousness I hope no one stops posting here - alcoholic or family member. When I read something I don't like or agree with here with I can just take what I like and leave the rest.
I hate the word"alkie" too - just feels like an insulting term. I do love some alcoholics in my life that is why I am here to begin with. The As on this forum deserve congrats for making it in to a recovery program. They are eons ahead of those that are not.
In all seriousness I hope no one stops posting here - alcoholic or family member. When I read something I don't like or agree with here with I can just take what I like and leave the rest.
I hate the word"alkie" too - just feels like an insulting term. I do love some alcoholics in my life that is why I am here to begin with. The As on this forum deserve congrats for making it in to a recovery program. They are eons ahead of those that are not.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ashamed ville
Posts: 311
I have to respond to this thread.
I personally do not need brain scans to see that the alcoholics in my life have/had brain damage.
1) My dad was an all day drinker. I was 16 when he passed away. He was very sick physically and I don't remember a whole lot during the last few years of his life but he passed away from a brain anerisym (sp). Which was in fact do to his alcoholism.
2) My aunt was a closet drinker for years. We knew she drank a little but to what extent we never knew until we found her in Long Island (4 hours away from home) in a hospital. She has "wet brain". We found her maybe 5 or 6 years ago. Before we actually found her, she was slowly deterirating (sp). We couldn't put our finger on why. She wasn't taking good care of herself. She always had. She was withdrawing from her family. We found her she did not know who we were. She thought she was somewhere else. Totally lost short term memory. For 5 years after we found her she has not drank an ounce of alcohol. She had not improved from the day we found her in the hospital. Only less confused. She still does not bathe regularly. Basically she doesn't take care of herself. She had no access to money and where she lived she had no access to alcohol. We moved her to a different place and here she is able to walk to the store and back. We would give her money to go to the supermarket to buy cookies/snacks. Somehow now she found where the liquor store is and uses the cookie money now to buy booze. My point with my aunt is that she must have alot of these "holes" in her brain and with the 5 years she was sober there was no improvement in her mental ability. It's very sad. In her case, her brain cells did not recover.
3) My AH is an alcoholic. He has been gone one week from our home. I do believe he has brain damage (holes) and if he decides to go to treatment, I do not believe he will be the same man as 20 years ago. He, of course, has every excuse why he drinks from the neighbors, to me having a job to drink. Whenever I bring up his drinking he diverts the problem away from him. He is really good at that. I hope that he will consider treatment so he can have a better quality of life and a longer life. I am not waiting for him to sober up. I am going to get on with my life with our children. We've been seperated a few times already because of his drinking and all the promises to quit and/or only drink on weekends has been useless. I take him back, he drinks, same old same old. I'm tired. It's very scary to go forward alone but I need to take care of me instead of me taking care of him.
If my AH were to get sober I'm not sure I would be able to live with him after. He is/will not be the same man I married. He has mental illness from all the years of drinking and smoking pot. It's really sad. I'm not angry with him. Now, I just feel really bad for him.
I think there was a point in there somewhere. I may have gotten off track. I don't need to see scans to know that three people in my family have "holes" in their brains because of alcoholism. 3 different outcomes.
I just hope my children don't follow in their footsteps and am using the tools available to me to make them aware. I think I'm going to have them read this thread also.
I personally do not need brain scans to see that the alcoholics in my life have/had brain damage.
1) My dad was an all day drinker. I was 16 when he passed away. He was very sick physically and I don't remember a whole lot during the last few years of his life but he passed away from a brain anerisym (sp). Which was in fact do to his alcoholism.
2) My aunt was a closet drinker for years. We knew she drank a little but to what extent we never knew until we found her in Long Island (4 hours away from home) in a hospital. She has "wet brain". We found her maybe 5 or 6 years ago. Before we actually found her, she was slowly deterirating (sp). We couldn't put our finger on why. She wasn't taking good care of herself. She always had. She was withdrawing from her family. We found her she did not know who we were. She thought she was somewhere else. Totally lost short term memory. For 5 years after we found her she has not drank an ounce of alcohol. She had not improved from the day we found her in the hospital. Only less confused. She still does not bathe regularly. Basically she doesn't take care of herself. She had no access to money and where she lived she had no access to alcohol. We moved her to a different place and here she is able to walk to the store and back. We would give her money to go to the supermarket to buy cookies/snacks. Somehow now she found where the liquor store is and uses the cookie money now to buy booze. My point with my aunt is that she must have alot of these "holes" in her brain and with the 5 years she was sober there was no improvement in her mental ability. It's very sad. In her case, her brain cells did not recover.
3) My AH is an alcoholic. He has been gone one week from our home. I do believe he has brain damage (holes) and if he decides to go to treatment, I do not believe he will be the same man as 20 years ago. He, of course, has every excuse why he drinks from the neighbors, to me having a job to drink. Whenever I bring up his drinking he diverts the problem away from him. He is really good at that. I hope that he will consider treatment so he can have a better quality of life and a longer life. I am not waiting for him to sober up. I am going to get on with my life with our children. We've been seperated a few times already because of his drinking and all the promises to quit and/or only drink on weekends has been useless. I take him back, he drinks, same old same old. I'm tired. It's very scary to go forward alone but I need to take care of me instead of me taking care of him.
If my AH were to get sober I'm not sure I would be able to live with him after. He is/will not be the same man I married. He has mental illness from all the years of drinking and smoking pot. It's really sad. I'm not angry with him. Now, I just feel really bad for him.
I think there was a point in there somewhere. I may have gotten off track. I don't need to see scans to know that three people in my family have "holes" in their brains because of alcoholism. 3 different outcomes.
I just hope my children don't follow in their footsteps and am using the tools available to me to make them aware. I think I'm going to have them read this thread also.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ashamed ville
Posts: 311
I don't know why people don't like the word alkie or codie. I type it because it's easier for me to type it rather than spell out the whole word. I don't mean any offense if I have used those words in any of my posts.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: California
Posts: 182
No offense was taken - I think the reason that term is derogatory to me is that I have heard it used so many times in society in general referring to alcoholics. "he or she is such an alkie". It was meant when I heard it as a nasty insult often utterred by people who have no idea about addiction or the suffering of the families of As. I have not heard the term codie used ever outside of recovery folks.
This is my experience and opinion only. There are plenty of words out there I don't care much for - just me.
This is my experience and opinion only. There are plenty of words out there I don't care much for - just me.
Awakening
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by Lola1024 
No offense was taken - I think the reason that term is derogatory to me is that I have heard it used so many times in society in general referring to alcoholics. "he or she is such an alkie". It was meant when I heard it as a nasty insult often utterred by people who have no idea about addiction or the suffering of the families of As. I have not heard the term codie used ever outside of recovery folks.
This is my experience and opinion only. There are plenty of words out there I don't care much for - just me.
This is my experience and opinion only. There are plenty of words out there I don't care much for - just me.
I really can't stand hearing the words, "stupid", "idiot", and "hate", specially coming out of my 9yo daughters mouth. Wonder where she learned them? Ha, I have a pretty good idea!
Recently we decided to "fine" each other $.25 for using them, put the money in the box.
We've only been doing this about a week, and it's made a BIG difference already. Of course I'll give you three guesses who has had to deposit MOST of the money so far.
Man she's on me like a duck on a junebug.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alexandria Township, NJ
Posts: 275
Freedom of Speak - one of my favorites.
I know woman who had a tumor the size of softball in head, and never had any symptoms until she got hit the head one day and had aseizure.
The brain can withstand a lot of abuse and still manages to function fairly well.
Or maybe we just have a very low standard for human intelligence idk
I'm shock that my RAH can tie his own shoes, because the stupidity that comes out of his mouth SOMETIMES drives me to distraction. Especially when he thinks he should be in charge of the finances
NOOOOO!
There are times when he admits to his limitations but then it is those limitations that continue to cause other problems in the relationship.
So the vicious circle continues.
There is definitely improvement in his thinking and behavior (it's been 15-16 months sober), but as someone else here said - first there has to be recovery and acknowledgment of the problem, then they can heal.
There are stable normal times and other times when I just want to give up and then it's fine again. It's like plucking the pedals from a flower - which one will I end on? Still plucking...
Great thread - I love when everyone gets all FIRED UP!!
I know woman who had a tumor the size of softball in head, and never had any symptoms until she got hit the head one day and had aseizure.
The brain can withstand a lot of abuse and still manages to function fairly well.
Or maybe we just have a very low standard for human intelligence idk
I'm shock that my RAH can tie his own shoes, because the stupidity that comes out of his mouth SOMETIMES drives me to distraction. Especially when he thinks he should be in charge of the finances
NOOOOO!There are times when he admits to his limitations but then it is those limitations that continue to cause other problems in the relationship.
So the vicious circle continues.
There is definitely improvement in his thinking and behavior (it's been 15-16 months sober), but as someone else here said - first there has to be recovery and acknowledgment of the problem, then they can heal.
There are stable normal times and other times when I just want to give up and then it's fine again. It's like plucking the pedals from a flower - which one will I end on? Still plucking...
Great thread - I love when everyone gets all FIRED UP!!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 31,179
FWIW, I was a codie LONG before I became an A. In fact, I turned to drugs because I couldn't deal with my relationship with my first, of three, now XABF's.
I understand the anger, and I'm glad you feel safe enough to express it here. However, I will be bowing out of any more responses to your threads, as it only seems to fuel your anger.
((Bucyn))) - you will remain in my prayers. I DO know what the anger feels like, and it's not pretty.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
I understand the anger, and I'm glad you feel safe enough to express it here. However, I will be bowing out of any more responses to your threads, as it only seems to fuel your anger.
((Bucyn))) - you will remain in my prayers. I DO know what the anger feels like, and it's not pretty.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
The brain finds other ways to get around damage.
That's also proven scientific fact.
Not necessarily explainable,
but fact.
All the yelling and anger in the world isn't going to change that.
Rather than be part of the problem,
I chose to be part of the solution
and that's why Art Therapy is my chosen major.
I've done a lot of (non-internet) reading on this brain healing thing lately.
The brain DOES find other ways.
And I want to be there to help if I can.
That's also proven scientific fact.
Not necessarily explainable,
but fact.
All the yelling and anger in the world isn't going to change that.
Rather than be part of the problem,
I chose to be part of the solution
and that's why Art Therapy is my chosen major.
I've done a lot of (non-internet) reading on this brain healing thing lately.
The brain DOES find other ways.
And I want to be there to help if I can.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 281
I realise now that I'm bloody angry too! I thought I'd already accepted Step 1 and yesterday at an Alanon meeting, I realised I hadn't. I hear all these stories of accepting you cannot change, fix or control them and while I understand that logically, emotionally it's a different story.
Today I'm thinking, why should I have to go to meetings and work on myself in order to cope with the alcoholic in my life? I've had enough and I'm glad I'm angry. It's better than being paralysed with all the pain...Underneath the anger is sadness and fear and I realise that. At least I'm crying now...a hard thing for me to do...
My greatest wish is to be able to be strong enough to walk away and not care, think or give anymore emotional or mental energy to the drinking alcoholics in my life. My father is in AA and I see there is hope for alcoholics to stop drinking and I know we have choices but what do you do when you're not ready to make that choice? When will I be strong enough so that I don't give a **** anymore? I want it all over....I'm thinking about the relocation thing because I'm not strong enough to live here and have the alcholics live so close to me...my ex turned up this morning with flowers telling me he loves me after the night before telling me we can't be friends. What the? Even though I know I'm dealing with brain injury, I don't know how to let go..I feel like I'm crazier than him. He has self inflicted brain damage, what's my excuse?
I know I made choices...and now I live with the consequences....and my children live with my choices...I am a super responsible mother...my kids come first but I don't put myself first and truthfully, I don't even trust what I do or don't want. I'm so confused.
A 'nice' (co-dependent) man came into my life and want's to "fix me with his love" and is asking "why can't I help heal your heart". That's sad but true....I told him he can't and suggested he get to an Alanon meeting since he grew up in alcoholic abuse, but who am I to offer that suggestion when I'm so screwed up myself?...
So, yep, I'm angry, sad and scared. I don't know if I'll ever feel 'normal' or ever have a 'normal' relationship. And I want to move on...just don't know how....
Today I'm thinking, why should I have to go to meetings and work on myself in order to cope with the alcoholic in my life? I've had enough and I'm glad I'm angry. It's better than being paralysed with all the pain...Underneath the anger is sadness and fear and I realise that. At least I'm crying now...a hard thing for me to do...
My greatest wish is to be able to be strong enough to walk away and not care, think or give anymore emotional or mental energy to the drinking alcoholics in my life. My father is in AA and I see there is hope for alcoholics to stop drinking and I know we have choices but what do you do when you're not ready to make that choice? When will I be strong enough so that I don't give a **** anymore? I want it all over....I'm thinking about the relocation thing because I'm not strong enough to live here and have the alcholics live so close to me...my ex turned up this morning with flowers telling me he loves me after the night before telling me we can't be friends. What the? Even though I know I'm dealing with brain injury, I don't know how to let go..I feel like I'm crazier than him. He has self inflicted brain damage, what's my excuse?
I know I made choices...and now I live with the consequences....and my children live with my choices...I am a super responsible mother...my kids come first but I don't put myself first and truthfully, I don't even trust what I do or don't want. I'm so confused.
A 'nice' (co-dependent) man came into my life and want's to "fix me with his love" and is asking "why can't I help heal your heart". That's sad but true....I told him he can't and suggested he get to an Alanon meeting since he grew up in alcoholic abuse, but who am I to offer that suggestion when I'm so screwed up myself?...
So, yep, I'm angry, sad and scared. I don't know if I'll ever feel 'normal' or ever have a 'normal' relationship. And I want to move on...just don't know how....
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 281
And added to that...after being such a loving, caring, empathic individual my whole life, loving those who other's can't love (yep, I know I'm an adult child of an alcoholic father and abusive narcissistic mother....co-dependent, rescuer etc), I'm cynical and I've given up on all that crap..I'm angry and if looking at Swiss cheese brain scans helps me to keep my rose coloured glasses off, that's a good thing for me....the fairytale had to end.....
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
I think if I'd seen these pictures when I was young and still in my parent's care it would have scared the living crap out of me and made me that much more desperate to "change" my A father. I was scared enough as it was, this might have sent me over the edge!
If I had seen them in my twenties, after discovering AlAnon, and during a period of researching alcoholism I could have handled it, and along with all my research, and therapy, and AlAnon, it would have been another good reminder just how powerless I am over my father's and my brothers' addictions.
I had to come to the understanding of what a powerful compulsion alcoholism is in order to truly detach, stop enabling, and feel free and easy about MY life choices. So these pics would have been helpful in that understanding, especially when coupled with a lot of other information and support.
Peace-
B
If I had seen them in my twenties, after discovering AlAnon, and during a period of researching alcoholism I could have handled it, and along with all my research, and therapy, and AlAnon, it would have been another good reminder just how powerless I am over my father's and my brothers' addictions.
I had to come to the understanding of what a powerful compulsion alcoholism is in order to truly detach, stop enabling, and feel free and easy about MY life choices. So these pics would have been helpful in that understanding, especially when coupled with a lot of other information and support.
Peace-
B
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