This is true, even my ex, the cowardly little momma's boy, who likes to play that he's so reasonable, so calm, so eagar to avoid trouble, just wants to get along, etc... refused to follow his restraining order. He found a sneaky way to get around it, pretending he needed to take his daughter to the only bus stop of six in our neighborhood that violated the order rather than drop her off at school (which she wasn't supposed to be attending since she now lived out of district). It gave him the opportunity to drive past the mouth of our cul de sac and monitor which cars were in the drive and to watch the back of the house between the houses on the other side of the street, and to gossip with the neighbors (who then knocked on my door to 'warn' what he was saying, until I told them to mind their own business).

And all under the guise that he was such a devoted father who just wanted what was best for his little girl. After all, he was such a noble man who just loved his mother....

Abusive people do not take no for an answer. They just have to show you that they can get away with it, that no one can tell them what to do.

I took the phonecalls from jail from my XAH and paid for them. He was bitter at everyone, the trooper who stopped him for his DUI, the judge, his boss, the treatment center people(he walked out of two), and would not take responsibility for his actions. I drove the 60 miles each week to visit him and it was the same pissy- potty, poor me, story every week. Never any talk of what he did or how he could get better. He was now a felon and knew from an officer he would not be able to keep his guns. He said in jail he would start a business called "weapons for felons"....of weapons that weren't guns. He came out and hid his guns and started a knife collection.....He bought all these medeival weapons off the internet. Why? Insanity......I was so tired of it......worn out.....Childish....and he was 50!....please let the professionals handle your son.....he needs treatment.....he cannot come out to manipulate you. He is a grown man.....I would not go to court. I would let someone know what is going on.......he needs help..he has problems and addiction........he is dangerous.......he will just use you for money, place to steal, get drugs, crash. You do not owe him anything. He is a man.

Your son is 38, old enough to stand before the judge by himself, and, face the music.

Can't you see that your enabling is only hurting him, not helping him. You have a 38 year old man who has the emotional IQ of a 16 year old, your enabling has stunted his emotional growth, his ability to grow into a productive member of society.

Do you baby your other children too? Do you try to solve all their problems for them? Do you feel the need to put their well being and happiness before your own....as you do with this son? If not, why?

I am not trying to be harsh, I am just trying to get you to think with your head not your heart. I know that you love him, however, if this keeps up you may being loving him to death. Let him learn, let him solve his own problems, let him grow up, for him, it is his divine right to be allowed to become a responsible adult.

What are you doing for you? Meetings? Reading Codependent No More? Therapy?

All said with a caring concern for you and your sons well being.

Please respect your son enough to follow his instructions. Let him take care of his own business.

Including paying his fines, legal fees, court costs, housing, and food.

I would go to court and I would tell the judge that your son is no longer welcome to live with you and would tell the prosecutor the truth about him, if the prosecutor cares.

I would not pay for a phone card for him. Do you want to hear him whine and guilt you and blame and snivel? What do you think he's going to use it for?

When he gets out, hand him the number to the Salvation Army and a list of homeless shelters. Have his stuff packed and in the garage, and have the locks changed and rods put in the window so he can't come in.

Let him take care of his own business, and maybe he will finally acknowledge that his drug use and it's consequences are his business and nobody else's.

You can't fix him. But he can break you.

So what helped your father the most was being abandoned by his wife and family?

Turn your back on your son and maybe your son will follow the pattern, move away, get a job, meet a woman he cares enough about to pull his life together.

You cannot help your son, even if you talked to a hundred judges because your son does not want help. If he did, he'd take all the help that had been offered him, the job training, etc...

Food stamps was not wrong to cut him off. They gave him an opportunity and he blew it. You gave him a chance and he blew it. The courts gave him a chance (with fines, rather than jail) and it seems he blew it again.

You cannot help him any more than you can change his eye color.

Actually, he lived with others until two years ago. He had a lot of enablers along the way. tho I guess i messed him up to begin with. I do see that I am hurting him, but it is like someone says, "Here, take your child and drop him from this cliff- he can fly". I feel fear to stop helping. I will do it for him in hopes that he may be ok someday.

I do not think my son is gonna be ok. I do not think he is going to live a good life. I feel that he is in a deep hole, which is part of his doing, and will not find his way out. I feel that he has some mental problems which are going to keep him from finding his way. He refuses to try meds that maybe he needs. He feels that the bipolar diagnosis was wrong, and I do too, but there is something mental.
Yes, I do try to help my girls too. I often over step my boundaries. I try to help them , especiallywhen they come to me with worries or problems.
I feel more worry for my son, for he is not a very functional person. maybe it is or is not my fault. i do want to do better. I did let him go to a homeless shelter, and cried myself to sleep each night, that he was there, and had to hold his posessions to his chest in order to have them not stolen. I am sorry , but I do have the most tender love for my children. they have been my salvation, in life. the only joys that i have ever known. I know that i have failed terribly with my son. it is causing me great pain to know this.

You are a good mom, you have done the best you could with what you knew. Your situation with your son requires a new way of thinking, a new attitude. You can see that what you are doing is not working. Why not try a new approach?

yes. yes. this is beautiful, you're shifting the focus onto yourself. Be selfish. Heal yourself. Be bold. I'm proud of you. This is hard

Hi Chicory

Please dont take this the wrong way because you know I do care. Your son is 38, ok, my son was 16 (not even an adult) when he left my home because of drugs and alcohol. Still a baby in my eyes and I didnt know if he was safe or warm, fed or happy. An absolute nightmare!! I got the occasional phone calls with a 'help' me mum and the torment of having to say no, just about killed me.
You keep saying that you think your son has a mental problem and at 38 he cant do it all by himself and that you dont ever think he is capable. Thats like saying that a blind person will never be able to go out in the sunshine and find their way to the store simply because they are blind. You know that is b_llsh_t, dont you.
Even if your son truelly does have some kind of impairment, he still can make it in his life if he wants it. Maybe he knows what you are thinking, that you think he cant do it on his own, therefore, he has decided this is the case and uses you in the meantime.
Seriously Chicory, I spent years worrying about my son and once I decided I had a life too, went to work, made friends etc etc and showed him that he wasnt all I thought about, he actually stood up and started taking notice. Heck, he wasnt the 'priority' in my life after all. This is when he had to think about surviving himself without me. Your son is 38 but its still not too late.
I know its hard to think differently right now and I dont know if you have work, retired, hobbies etc but think about doing some of these things. Get your focus elsewhere, and slowly you will find yourself thinking about 'what I have got on today' - 'not what he has on today'
JJ

it sure is hard, especially for a woman who doubts her every decision. I struggle with knowing what is right and wrong.
I guess it is terribly disfunctional, but I dont know how to help in a healthy way. I do not know the difference between helping and enabling- tho some enabling is obvious, some is not so evident, or black and white.

I think that since we had so little , as a child, and we were often at the mercy of one family member or another, that I do not ever wish my children to feel that pain. Of no one to turn to. I know, I know, there is a difference.

I had no one to help me as a child. my parents were oblivious to our needs. no support for our emotions, no concern for our fears. they were so caught up in their own worlds.
I got married, just to feel love. to have someone to hug, and hold. turned out, he was emotionally unavailable too, and I spent a very lonely 4 years, isolated, no license, no phone. he was gone all the time, and when I finally got pregnant, i was overjoyed- my very own little person to love and to love me. I ws a good mommy, and i was very happy. my son , my first, was my every reason for being. he was beautiful, smart. could read 6th grade level when he began kindergarten, cause i spent so much time teaching him. was a stay at home mom. along came two beautiful girls, within 4 years. they are my life.
I guess I have made my children my purpose in life. Marriage has never worked for me. always pick mommas boys. my dad was supposedly a mommas boy. they never give much, just take. i am good at giving.

i think i suffer from an intense worry problem.

i guess all this figures into the equation.

Thank you jj, for saying it is not too late. God bless you, for being so lovingly strong for your precious son. I hope that he is doing well.

My daughters also think that he will never make it on his own. I think that it is the fact that you cannot talk to him. reason with him. get him to listen. he has a very stubborn mindset. he does not wish to let go of his joys- drink and pot.
do you mean to say that there is never a mental condition in a person that can make it impossible for them to make it on their own? what about homeless people who never make it?

I think that it is unclear if my son has a mental condition or if he is mentally impaired from being an alcoholic (i believe) and an addictive person , living his hellish life, which he could possibly change. I hold a small hope. and I do admit that maybe it is entirely possible for him. but I am so afraid that it is going to take a great big change, for him to want change, and to want to not abuse drugs and alcohol.
I appreciate you, and thank you,
chicory

I so agree with Justjo. I also know that it is hard to read that, but she is asking the question I have been tempted to ask for quite a while. Is it possible that he thinks he cannot do things for himself because you have always taken care of him and picked him up whenever he fell? I know you would never do anything intentionally to hold him back, but just the simple fact of being a mother who loves her kid can sometimes cause us to do stuff that, in the long run, isn't really all that great for them. I know I did that with my daughter. I'm so sorry you are feeling badly and going through this, but honestly, it sounds like it would have happened sooner or later anyway. The other shoe just had to fall at some point. Maybe, just maybe, it could be the first step in the right direction for your son. :grouphug:

I really, really understand chicory. I too had parents who were distant and never there for me emotionally. I too at 17 met my ex husband because I needed love. I too, got divorced only to look for love again. I too, spent my life living for my children. I too, had nothing as a child and wanted to give my children everything I didnt have.
I have grown though and I wish this for you too. Be strong honey, you can change your thinking now, If I can do it anyone can. With many tears and lonely nights I fought hard for my son, only to find that I was doing more damage by protecting and bailing him out all the time. He needed me to show him how to be 'strong'. I couldnt treat him like a child anymore. Really, you can do it now, slowly, step by step.
Keep reading in here everyday if you can, there is so much good advice and it really helped me tremendously. People said things to me that I didnt like much but it opened my eyes. I mainly came in here for help for my sister but I lost her 9 months ago to alcoholism. I still have tears but this forum keeps me going and keeps me stronger to get through every day.
a big hug for you, ok. I know you are hurting, but as you treat your son as 'the stranger' you dont know, it will get better. Keep reminding yourself that you will not put up with 'stranger' 'behaviour'.

JJ

[QUOTE=chicory;2696222] JJ

Suki,
I have wondered that too. I have done a lot for him, and he probably does not know for sure if he can survive on his own. I know what you are asking and I think that is a fair question. That is in the back of my mind, all the time.
I was just talking to my daughter, and we agreed that there are probably many , many alcoholics or addicts that are viewed as beyond hope by their families.
I would guess that many people fee l this way about a loved one who is in denial, and is too stubborn to even have a conversation with.
So, I chose to have hope- tho weak and faint, it's heart is beating.

Suki, you may ask me what you wish. I am anonymous here, and have nothing to hide. Not if I really want recovery.

Thank you, for the help and advice. I do appreciate it all.

Please get into a program for yourelf.
Al-anon.
I get suberb help at the local mental health center...inidividual counseling, group and classess. It's priceless to me.

It will be more help than you can imagine!

I am so sorry about your sister, JJ. It must be very hard still. I know that this forum has been a miracle, at the right time, and you must feel the same.

Thank you too, for sharing. We sure have had similar lives. I am glad to hear that I can still grow, and become a better parent, and one to myself, too.

I do like using that "stranger" technique. It helps, and makes sense. It reminds me of my boundaries, which I really need .

hugs,
chicory

Thank you Live,

that is an awesome idea. I have been wanting to get some help, especially during the most painful times. there is a place not far away. it is government funded, so i am not sure of its quality. guess there is nothing to lose. i just dont want to sit through an hour with someone who knows very little about this matter. not to say that is how it would be, but i wonder.
may run there tomorrow as i am off. will be sure to be getting some books at the library, too.
hugs,
chicory

Hi Chicory

Yes you said it - this is divine intervention at its best.

I think the hardest thing for a parent to face is that someday our children won't NEED us anymore.

Your son doesn't need a mommy anymore. He needs the judge to slap him with what he does deserve. He earned what he has coming to him. WE REEP WHAT WE SOW!

It's harsh, but he will just continue to use you, until there is nothing more he can get from you.

And your love is so unconditional that could take the rest of your life.

Hugs to you Chicory - you are wonderful. But you need to set him free.

:grouphug:

This is probably worse for you tonight because tomorrow is his court hearing.

You are running all the possibilities and what has happened what could have gone wrong, where you went wrong (you did not do anything wrong)...

It is so painful. I spent way too much effort on my alcoholic Mom, who was fatally
alcoholic. It was nearly 10 years ago and there were not forums like this. I did go
to Alanon - just once. Because I was determined to prove them wrong. I put every effort and emotion and minute into trying to get her off drink.

Listen to these knowledgeable people who have been through this.

One thing that has not been mentioned if you think he has a mental condition (eg depression) or if the bipolar is correct - any medication he takes and mixes with alcohol (and anyone correct me here) nullifies or renders it useless.

He is not cooperating with a program.

Your debts are going up.

Before I got on this forum this past weekend I was a mess. I would wake up depressed, cry a lot, worry (about my elderly father who is in a neglectful situation). But I was validated here that it was not normal what I was going through. This is dysfunction and I was falling right back in the whole puppet show - reacting and trying to fix.

I was told to get into or read about ACOA. Today I woke up feeling better, not wondering if he had been fed, or bathed or who was left with him. I left that up to Adult Protective Services - they have the power to do something about this situation now just as a Judge and Prosecutor have the power to do somethig about your son now.

As I have read most messages end with what are you doing for you? Alanon, ACOA, a therapist. Some books people recommend. Workbooks. Someone, probably on here, recommended just going to the library and going down the ailes and picking up books on what clicked with them. Anxiety, Positive thinking, Alcoholism, Depression, etc... and making a custom made workbook to study. Maybe something positive such as meditation, yoga or gardening.

Journaling has helped a lot of people.

Make sure you are eating right, try to relax and get some rest or watch tv if you get up sick with worry about tomorrow.

Thoughts are with you about what you are going through.