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Old 10-19-2010, 07:29 AM
  # 61 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by hurtandangry View Post
Okay...........I drove........I attended.........I even tried participating.

That's awesome, you took steps to take care of yourself. Good job.

Ever feel like a turd in the punch bowl?

Only at almost every social experience of my life.

I was the only male in the room.

Often true. The women in my home group shower me with warm hugs, honest guidance, and well wishes, and I love every one of them for it. It's hard to reach out to others for help, especially for us men. We're supposed to be all tough and all.

To make matters even more interesting a bearded biker type dude pouring his heart out in the midst of want-to-be society type women is really pretty weird.

Sounds like that particular group might need YOU.

I seriously doubt I’ll be going back to that meeting.

I was "court ordered" to attend, so I had no choice. But I do remember being in so much pain, my discomfort with all the things you've expressed was small potatoes.

Are most al-anon meetings about how men don't/won't/can't "complete" their wives?

No. Some are healthier that others. Your own predetermined expectations may have colored your experience. They have a saying, "Take what you like and leave the rest". I hear things every meeting that don't ring true for me, some even annoy me, but never in my 400+ meetings have I ever failed to hear at least 1 thing that hit home for me.

It's suggested that you attend 6 meetings, different ones if you can, as close together as you can in time, before you decide if Alanon is for you. IOW, give yourself a fair chance to benefit. Our group meets 4 times a week, and each one has a "different feel/personality" because of the certain people who attend a particular meeting regularly.

If you do go to 6 meeting and still figure there's nothing there for you to gain, then you can walk away knowing you gave yourself a fair shot. It's not for everybody.

Listening to the perspectives expressed I don't doubt that many of the supposed alcoholics these people were trying to learn to cope with may have been seeking solace in a bottle because their relationships were so dysfunctional.

I was AT LEAST as sick as my alcoholic was. She had the bottle to fall back on, and I had REALITY slapping me in the face relentlessly. I didn't cause her drinking, I can't control her drinking, I cant' cure her drinking. I am willing to accept ONLY 50% of the responsibility for the dysfunction of my marriage

I can honestly see how working the steps will help those folks get a handle on their own lives but I’m afraid that environment would cause me to speak out of turn and most likely negatively effect someone’s work on themselves.

Come on dude, you're not quite THAT powerful.

It’s very possible that there are different types of meetings with a different mix of people and if I get a chance to attend I will.

Good man. Give yourself a chance at some good healing.

In the meantime I guess I’ll keep on reading here and doing what I know to be right for my son and myself.
You sound good. Walking into your first Alanon meeting is no small thing. Be proud of yourself. Try and keep an open mind.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:34 AM
  # 62 (permalink)  
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Welcome, its really great here. Your doing the right thing you have to worry and you and your kids
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:39 AM
  # 63 (permalink)  
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Take What You Like and Leave the Rest

Just a gentle reminder:

Take what you like and leave the rest.

Let's keep our focus on what works best in this forum:

Share your ES&H with others.

Your Experience
Your Strength
Your Hope
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:47 AM
  # 64 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by TeM View Post
I'm sure my AW would complain that I don't "complete" her. I think maybe we were mismatched from the start; she's a high-maintenance person... needs lots of nurturing and is very jealous and insecure. I, on the other hand, am not very nurturing... but I'm also not very demanding either.

Add to that her OCD, and her hypochondria, which has cost us literally tens of thousands in medical costs and weird hoarding purchases... and my well of sympathy has diminished over the years. Her recent plunge into alcoholism has drained it dry.

Now, AW tells all her friends and even our daughter that I don't love her, and she feels neglected, yada yada yada. Okay, I'm willing to take my share of the blame... but where we are now is really not going to be sustainable.

So, I feel your pain, and admire your guts... and wish you the best of luck with your situation.
Sounds like YOUR "give a damn's busted". Man, from what you've described, mine would be too.

Unfortunately, it sounds like you'll alienate (I'm tired of looking up correct spellings) your daughter if you haul a$$. The good news is, you are not responsible for your daughters feelings, or anyone else's for that matter.

As you get stronger and gain confidence, you options, and the correct path for yourself, will become more clear.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:55 AM
  # 65 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Hollyanne View Post
Hi hurt,
you are a bad, bad man!
Another gentle reminder of what works best in this forum:

Say what you mean
Mean what you say,
Just don't say it mean.
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:04 AM
  # 66 (permalink)  
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Hurtandangry, I hope you keep posting, we have a good group of guys here currently, on what is mostly a female board, and I like it.

I've realized lately, that although I love me some women Alanoners/SRers, my needs/issues are sometime different just because I'm a man.

I just ordered a book the other day from Amazon, it's a daily reader similar to the ones in Alanon, but by/for men. I'm looking forward to it's arrival.

My dad hauled a$$ when I was 2, and I loved my mom, but I think I missed something important growing up around mainly women. I think I may have missed learning how to BE a man, somehow.

My Grand dad taught me how to hunt/fish/crap in the woods, and I loved him more than any other man in my life, but he was an alcoholic so my only male role model may have come with many flaws.

IDK, just glad all you other guys are here. MEN, MEN, MEN, MEN, MEN. HA!

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:21 AM
  # 67 (permalink)  
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SAMHSA's National Survey on Drug Use & Health defines alcohol dependence or abuse using criteria specified in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV). The criteria includes symptoms such as withdrawal, tolerance, use in dangerous situations, trouble with the law, and interference in major obligations at work, school, or home during the past year.

Binge drinking is defined as drinking 5 or more drinks on the same occasion (at the same time or within a couple of hours of each other). Heavy drinking is defined as drinking 5 or more drinks on the same occasion on each of 5 or more days in the past 30 days.

Based on combined data from SAMHSA's 2004-2005 National Surveys on Drug Use & Health, the rate of past year alcohol dependence or abuse among persons aged 12 or older varied by level of alcohol use: 44.7% of past month heavy drinkers, 18.5% binge drinkers, 3.8% past month non-binge drinkers, and 1.3% of those who did not drink alcohol in the past month met the criteria for alcohol dependence or abuse in the past year.

Males had higher rates than females for all measures of drinking in the past month: any alcohol use (57.5% vs. 45%), binge drinking (30.8% vs. 15.1%), and heavy alcohol use (10.5% vs. 3.3%).

Males were twice as likely as females to have met the criteria for alcohol dependence or abuse in the past year (10.5% vs. 5.1%).


from: Alcohol Gender differences: Gender Differences in Alcohol Use and Alcohol Dependence or Abuse: 2004, & 2005; SAMHSA,Office of Applied Studies
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:32 AM
  # 68 (permalink)  
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IDK, just glad all you other guys are here. MEN, MEN, MEN, MEN, MEN. HA!

:ghug3

I am glad all the guys are here too!

Beth
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:37 AM
  # 69 (permalink)  
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Learn2Live,

I thought women were much quicker to become dependent on alcohol because of different metabolisms, and they are much more likely to be "closet" drinkers.
But, I do not remember where I read that, it was just saying that women are catching up to the men with alcoholism, but you wont see them out at the bar getting into fights.
So, forget I said anything.
LOL
I drank alone. Always alone. Most people who worked with me (all men, I was in the Army) did not believe I was an alcoholic and I was drinking to blackout every other night.
My experience.

Beth
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:06 AM
  # 70 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
SAMHSA's National Survey on Drug Use & Health defines alcohol dependence or abuse using criteria specified in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV). The criteria includes symptoms such as withdrawal, tolerance, use in dangerous situations, trouble with the law, and interference in major obligations at work, school, or home during the past year.

Binge drinking is defined as drinking 5 or more drinks on the same occasion (at the same time or within a couple of hours of each other). Heavy drinking is defined as drinking 5 or more drinks on the same occasion on each of 5 or more days in the past 30 days.

Based on combined data from SAMHSA's 2004-2005 National Surveys on Drug Use & Health, the rate of past year alcohol dependence or abuse among persons aged 12 or older varied by level of alcohol use: 44.7% of past month heavy drinkers, 18.5% binge drinkers, 3.8% past month non-binge drinkers, and 1.3% of those who did not drink alcohol in the past month met the criteria for alcohol dependence or abuse in the past year.

Males had higher rates than females for all measures of drinking in the past month: any alcohol use (57.5% vs. 45%), binge drinking (30.8% vs. 15.1%), and heavy alcohol use (10.5% vs. 3.3%).

Males were twice as likely as females to have met the criteria for alcohol dependence or abuse in the past year (10.5% vs. 5.1%).


from: Alcohol Gender differences: Gender Differences in Alcohol Use and Alcohol Dependence or Abuse: 2004, & 2005; SAMHSA,Office of Applied Studies
OMFngG! 12 year olds are abusing alcohol? I'm going to hang myself.

So, if I'm interpreting these statistics correctly, the ratio of women to men on SR/in ALANON, should be about 3/1.

That's not EVEN close, and I say it's because society has conditioned us to believe that, as men, it's NOT OK to express our tender little feelings.

Oh, and from everything I've read, the women folk, "they are a catching up", sadly.

Still sadder to me to see a bar fly (woman), than it is to see a bar turd (man). There are NO winners in alcoholism.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

PS Just noticed your study is 5 years old, bet the gap has closed some.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:08 AM
  # 71 (permalink)  
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I'm not sure about metabolisms and all that. My point in posting the figures was just to show the OP that the incidence of alcoholism has been found to be significantly higher in men than in women. And that is likely why you find more women at Al-Anon and on SR F&F than men. And likely why you find more men at AA than women.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:17 AM
  # 72 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by wicked View Post
Learn2Live,

I thought women were much quicker to become dependent on alcohol because of different metabolisms, and they are much more likely to be "closet" drinkers.
But, I do not remember where I read that, it was just saying that women are catching up to the men with alcoholism, but you wont see them out at the bar getting into fights.
So, forget I said anything.
LOL
I drank alone. Always alone. Most people who worked with me (all men, I was in the Army) did not believe I was an alcoholic and I was drinking to blackout every other night.
My experience.

Beth
I read some where that, all things being even, i.e. body weight/consumption ratios, the damage it takes men 15 years to incur, women take only 5 years to incur.

And I believe that to be true, given personal experience witnessing my axw's rapid down hill decline over the last 5 years.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

Man, we hijacked the crap outta this thread! Whadda ya mean WE.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:34 AM
  # 73 (permalink)  
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OK, I admit, this thread triggered me. And I apologize sincerely for any bad behavior on my part. To prevent any further bad behavior by me on this thread, and since I want to participate in this conversation, I am copying what Pelican posted earlier right here to refer to while I type:

Share your ES&H with others.

Your Experience
Your Strength
Your Hope
Originally Posted by hurtandangry View Post
Okay...........I drove........I attended.........I even tried participating.
Good first step hurtandangry. Good on you for doing that for yourself.

Ever feel like a turd in the punch bowl? I was the only male in the room.
No, I have never described myself in that way. Is there some way you can describe yourself that creates a more positive picture? It must be difficult to be the only male in a room full of females. What if you were in a bar or at a party full of females and you were the only male? Would you feel like that in THAT situation? Something to ponder.

To make matters even more interesting a bearded biker type dude pouring his heart out in the midst of want-to-be society type women is really pretty weird.
How did you know these women want to be society type? Do you think perhaps this could be a judgment of those people? I don't think that sounds weird at all. I think you did a good thing for yourself.

I seriously doubt I’ll be going back to that meeting.
They are all different.

Are most al-anon meetings about how men don't/ won't/ can't "complete" their wives?
No. I have never interpreted any Al-Anon meeting in this way. I never thought any Al-Anon meeting had anything to do with male topics versus female topics, or how men do not complete anyone. We seemed to all just be people who had common problems.

Listening to the perspectives expressed I don't doubt that many of the supposed alcoholics these people were trying to learn to cope with may have been seeking solace in a bottle because their relationships were so dysfunctional.
Try the Three C's:
We did not cause it,
We cannot control it,
And we cannot cure it.

I can honestly see how working the steps will help those folks get a handle on their own lives but I’m afraid that environment would cause me to speak out of turn and most likely negatively effect someone’s work on themselves.
How might working the steps help you get a handle on your life?
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:47 AM
  # 74 (permalink)  
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I personally appreciate a thread that have both female and male posts. As a woman I appreciate the thoughts and views of the opposite sex. Just because we have learned how to detach ourselves from our alcoholic husbands or wifes doesn't mean that we have stopped loving them. Detachment from our AHs or AWs for our own healing process is a totally different concept than us stopping our love for them. Detachment means we have had to move away from the alcoholics chaotic influence upon our lives. Our process of stopping our love for them may never happen. We just cannot live with them any longer. It's like my love for my daughter who completed suicide on May 16, 1995. Even though she is no longer with me doesn't me that I will ever stop loving her.



I would recommend you both do individual therapy before you start marriage counseling. I'm not so against marriage counseling, but your wife will need to want it, also, almost more than you. The marriage counseling will need to be conducted with someone knowledgeable in addictions. Believe me, if you were able to get a competent therapist, they will know if your wife is sober or if she is still "stinking thinking". If you decide to go into marriage counseling, I would recommend that you and your wife remain in your separate housing arrangements. As so often happens when living with an alcoholic your home has probably become unacceptable both mentally and emotionally.
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Old 10-19-2010, 11:26 AM
  # 75 (permalink)  
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Just a short break for lunch...

Thanks for the words of encouragement!

Please accept my apologies if I have been out of line.

I’ll try and respond to the questions/comments when I’ve got more time.
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Old 10-19-2010, 11:52 AM
  # 76 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by coyote21 View Post
I just ordered a book the other day from Amazon, it's a daily reader similar to the ones in Alanon, but by/for men. I'm looking forward to it's arrival.
What is the title of the book?
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SteppingUp View Post
What is the title of the book?
If you go to Amazon search:Touchstones: A Book Of Daily Meditations For Men

That ought to bring it up, $.01+ $3.99 shipping for used good condition.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:17 PM
  # 78 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by hurtandangry View Post
Just a short break for lunch...

Thanks for the words of encouragement!

Please accept my apologies if I have been out of line.

I’ll try and respond to the questions/comments when I’ve got more time.
Not at all.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:13 PM
  # 79 (permalink)  
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Hollyanne,

I don’t know what’s going on at her folk’s house,
They’re sober and will take care of her child.
Her attorney has only referred to her “treatment”; I have no immediate knowledge of it.
Son and I have big Halloween plans.


Stepping-up and Summerpeach,

I know “that” particular group isn’t for me, maybe I’ll find one that I fit in a little better.


L2L,

My metaphors might be a tad off color and if I offended you I’m sorry.

As far as being “judgmental” ; I merely stated my impression.

As for me “working the steps”; again, I’m trying.


Acdirito,

Thanks for your input!

I honestly don’t know if counseling is in our future or not but rest assured resuming what was status quo isn’t happening.


Coyote,
Thanks man!
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:23 PM
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Pelican! For the love of Mike! It's a joke!
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