Still Waters

Yeah, you can't have it both ways.

If a codie stays in an abusive situation, they're a volunteer not a victim.

So..

If an alcoholic chooses to drink after being told by doctors/spouses/clergy/bosses that they have a problem, they're a volunteer not a victim.

Pelican

Summerpeach,
Please post the author of the articles.
Thanks

zbear23

ABSOLUTELY!!

I left my marriage of 18 years as a direct result of the power of the alcoholic-codependent dynamic. As the identified problem...the "bad boy," I could recover if I could shed that role...but as long as she insisted on being the "good mother", the parent to my child, I couldn't do it. My choice was as stark as any codependent's....the drink and the relationship, or sobriety and separation. Might've been very different if she'd attended alanon, but instead, she got credentialled as an addictions counselor....so she could better "care" for MY recovery. How ironic is that? Martyrs are really no better at relationships than alcoholics.

I don't blame her for my drinking. I blame the "family disease" that creates such a powerfully unhealthy dynamic which requires MUTUAL recovery to break. I kept relapsing...choosing the relationship (me as the bad child) because I'd become so dependent on "mommy."

I left her fifteen years ago and haven't had a drink since. I am a RECOVERED alcoholic, just as described on page xiii of "Alcoholics Anonymous': "We of Alcoholics Anonymous are more than 100 men and women who have RECOVERED from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recoveredis the main purpose of this book."

And as for any comparison to diabetes, cancer, etc.....addiction is, first and foremost, a BRAIN disease. Which is why it remains operational long after detox is complete. When my BRAIN is dis-eased, I really can't be expected to think rationally and, in fact, I am insane. So the proper analogy would probably be to Schizophrenia. Would you insist that the schizophrenic stop hearing voices and/or responding to them....blame them for their malfunctioning brain?

And another little factoid....the relapse rate for diabetics, based on the need for retreatment within the first year, is higher than that of alcoholics. And both seem to be the result of the unwillingness to "take direction" ... follow doctors orders/"work the program" etc. IOW...self will and laziness.


There are two sides to every story, and that means that we each see things a bit differently. No one has the right to impose their own perceptions/reality on others as being "objectively real."

I've posted this before, and here it is again...for both addicts and codependents (adrenaline addicts).

*don't blame
*don't complain
*mind your own business (see to yourself).

My recovery depends on self examination rather than judging others or, as we say in AA....identify, don't compare.

The blame game seems to be a universal human activity, btw. It goes along with the compulsion for "image management"...looking good, or not looking bad...avoiding unpleasant consequences. Remember, human nature is to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

blessings
zenbear

firestorm090

Hi Summerpeach and all,

I love these types of discussions, because as an alcoholic man, I seek to understand why I became an alcoholic and have so many difficulties with many aspects of life that others seem to cope with much better, without alcohol in their lives. I've encountered resistance regarding "why" in recovery, and have been told that "why" doesn't matter, that you just move on from here, but I don't agree with that outlook. It helps me to understand why and I've been unable to find much info regarding that part of recovery.

As a child, like most people, I was taught right from wrong. I grew up in the church, went to Sunday school, Sunday morning and night services, and Wednesday night prayer meetings. I was taught that God was watching me and that He had a big book and was writing down all of my sins as I committed them, and I thought the first time I kissed a girl out of wedlock that I was going to hell. I always thought I was going to hell, that I simply could never measure up to the God I was taught watched over all of us. I thought I was doomed before I got out of the gate, so to speak. I don't believe that today, but did for many years. Also, I saw some of my "teachers" doing the opposite of what they were teaching, so I became confused. Consistency was lacking in some of those teachers, so the message became muddled in the mix. The examples did not match the lessons taught. I don't believe I was "born an alcoholic", I believe today that I became an alcoholic by growing up in an alcoholic family, and my brothers and sisters have also struggled with their own alcohol and drug addictions due to this childhood environment. I blamed my parents for years, but now understand that they lived as they were taught by their parents, for drinking to excess has been passed down in my family of origin and still remains a problem with many of the members of my family; siblings, cousins, nieces, nephews, etc. Quite frankly, it is allot of work to understand the hidden dynamics behind the problem, disease or not, and many people are unable to trace the patterns back to the origin, so the patterns keep repeating. It's like trying to paint a wall that has sustained water damage, sure, it may look good after a coat of paint, but the mold and mildew you paint over is still there underneath, growing and multiplying till you cut out the damage.

I can relate to the ignorance and confusion that alcoholics and people in general experience while trying to do this thing called life. I've made tons of mistakes in my life, have often been selfish and self-centered and now must examine these concepts in order to understand why I'm that way. I've never intended to hurt people that love me, but I have, and am one of those guys who cannot stand the sight of tears, anytime I see someone crying, my first instinct is to make things better, to dry the tears, and remove the pain from the sufferer. This led me to one of my biggest insights about my alcoholism, I drank to cover, drown the hurts I've felt for many years. I didn't learn how to grieve, in fact I don't remember ever discussing that part of life as I grew up. I watched people die, then the relatives would all meet at the bar before and after a funeral, and it seemed that drinking was an integral part of grieving, so I tried to do the same, and the grief was stuffed down inside of me. When my parents argued, there was always booze involved, so as a young child I decided never to drink, yet I did when I became a teenager. I didn't sign up, yet I became exactly what I didn't want to be. Why? I'm still trying to figure that out.

Does this relieve me of my responsibility regarding the hurts and poor decisions related to my alcoholism? No, not in any way. I am responsible for what I've done and must set things right to the best of my ability. And it is also important that I, as an individual, look at the underlying fallacies of my thinking, and to dislodge and change many of the concepts that I was taught while growing up, for many of them just don't work well toward living a vibrant, healthy, loving, respectful life. So, the lessons continue and that's one of the best things about life, we can keep learning as we live it, and it gets better.

I do know this, for most of my life, after I became addicted to alcohol, I was controlled by my addiction. I can't explain it, for how can I explain the overwhelming desire to get drunk even after getting drunk has damaged my life in countless ways, many of which I' am still unaware. It's hard to explain that I had to have a drink, it's embarrassing, and sounds illogical, but it was true for me. I lived it and I hated it and I still do. How could a liquid become so powerful for a man of reasonable intellect, good disposition, and strong teachings, albeit confusing teachings, need a drink, not want but physically, emotionally, and spiritually need a drink? It's a phenomenon I still don't understand, but I know it happens, because it happened to me.

Thanks for letting me share a bit today.

BuffaloGal

Bucyn: my aexh, when I was with him, was cut from a similar cloth. Normally he wasn't very emotionally alert, but he had an uncanny sense of when someone would disapprove of him. If necessary he would lie his way around having to endure it, whether it was justified or not. And yet, his parents seemed quite open and communicative to me. I used to wonder what made him the way he is.

He blames me for our divorce, and lied to them about the cause (because "My mom would hit the roof" if she knew about the porn addiction) but I discovered shortly before her death that his mother did not hold it against me.

Popping back to the blame game, here's how I just stopped playing it: In response to my aexh's recent attempt to blame me for his and his gf's child-care scheduling mistake, I said, "I do not accept responsibility for this," and did not participate in the conversation further. (In the future I bet I can say it more calmly.) I did consider whether or not I was to blame... and you know what? I'm not. They had a miscommunication. It happens. But it's not a 3rd party's fault when it does.

My ex rightly accused me of changing the dynamic, and warned me to choose my battles carefully. And I thought, well, but you and your girlfriend have chosen your battles with me assuming that I will lose, and our dynamic is that you guys decide what is best in terms of child care and I go along with it. That's a dynamic worth changing.

After that, at my suggestion his girlfriend called up my exboyfriend to see if he would babysit... and ruined it by referring to me as "difficult" throughout the conversation. At one time I would have been angry; now I think it's creepily immature. She needs that badly to be right and for me to be wrong? Ewwwwww. That's a child's tactic! She's 52!

Still Waters

That title doesn't fit me in the least. Does that mean I'm totally not a codependent?

A brain disease is mental disease. I believe you can file codependency away under mental disease also.

Summerpeach

Here's the link. My al anon friend sent these to me

Summerpeach

Bucyn: that's a lot of drama right there. He sounds like his issues ran deep.
There are so many differnt "levels" if you will, of the addict because how one would act is not how another would act.


.

Summerpeach

Zbear & Firestorm: thank you for sharing. Hearing the other side of the coin help put things into persepctive. I think with article like this and the pain many of the loved ones feel, we have a tendency towards catastrophizing and think all addict are just plain nuts.
Both of your shares give me hope that my ex will find his recovery so his kids can have a better Dad.
And Zbear, wow about the ex wife. I guess she got lost herself. Al Anon is the only place to be to recover as well.
I've seen couples recovering together in a healthy proper way and come out on top

Summerpeach

I played the game with him because often I was in shock, felt he had control of the blame and would fight to save myself from his blame.

Summerpeach

I also agree with Zbear is that a physical ailment like diabetes cannot be compared to a mental illness.
I personally don't think addiction is the disease itself, I think the addiction is the outcome of an undiagnosed or yet unamed mental disorder.
Truthfully, the older I get, the more I think ever human has mental disorders.

firestorm090

Hi Summerpeach,

Thanks for the kind comments.

BTW, I'll still nuts, lol.
D

Summerpeach

we're all nuts, but I'm talking cocoa puff nuts ;-)

Please keep sharing, I love your insight

BuffaloGal

I felt that too and fought it too... yet I finally realized that even if I win the Nobel Peace Prize he will find some way to mentally characterize me as the bad guy because he is unable to look at himself critically, as far as I can tell. No amount of fighting is going to make him stop blaming me; it's part of alcoholism. My anger when I engage, on the other hand, is mine. I'm shrugging and walking away because that's what is in my own best interests these days.

fourmaggie

I am in no shape and form gonna be the As "HOSTAGE"... I am sorry but I have a good AL ANON back ground growing up, and more confidence to say...F U!! I am not going down with the BOAT...screw that...

my dear friend...did just that...broke it off with me during HIS beginning recovery for that reason....NOT TO TAKE ME HOSTAGE with him...and I am so glad he saw this.....

I am sorry people get "sucked in" or lost in it....but then again, my moms says "thank god for the alcoholic, or I would have never found AL ANON"...MOM, so glad you did, because I see your courage to change...and me watch YOU grow..(and always is...

Still Waters

So true!

Babyblue

I think what it is saying is the alcoholic is not at fault for his/her DISEASE. But that isn't the same as the alcoholic isn't at fault for doing dangerous and damaging or hurtful things. The alcohol may be a source of the cause but not all alcoholics abuse others, not all hurt or hit others. It is never an excuse for destructive behavior.

Addicts come from all kinds of walks of life. Some grew up in abusive homes, some grew up in healthy homes. Some grew up with a sense of right or wrong, others did not. Being aware of one's disease or being in AA doesn't automatically erase an upbringing of dysfunction (if that is how one grew up). Because not all those who grew up in dysfunction drink or abuse drugs. Addiction is a disease, not a chioce. But you can chose to deal with the pain that is aggravated when you are an addict, the painful childhood, the abuse you may have experienced. Until they deal with those core issues sober, then all that stuff will keep coming up when they are in active addiction. And come up with a vengeance.

If you've ever seen some very sick people in hospitals lash out at a nurse for example, a nurse will never excuse or say 'thats ok, keep hitting me'. No. the nurse or doctor won't excuse that reaction. Because excusing it can actually harm the patient more. A patient may harm themselves as well. But the doctor or nurse will understand that may be an effect of the illness and that it is important to protect anyone who comes in contact with that person who may be violent. Not sure if this makes sense but that is how I see it. No one is giving a sick person with any illness license to hurt someone else. It is more about understanding that sick people have less self control.

MissFixit

Summer,

What's going on with you? How are you feeling right now?

I have read this thread and am wondering how you are feeling. This thread and the articles are theories about A's thinking. I totally get that you are trying to understand why he did the things he did. But, what is happening inside you?

Thumper

I strive for understanding so I can come to acceptance. I understand that A's are self absorbed, self centered, will shift blame, etc. because it is part of the disease of alcoholism. It may be a chicken/egg question but in the end it doesn't much matter. I must accept it. That acceptance allows me to let it go. I no longer try and get him to understand anything or even 'get me' even if he disagrees. He can not and further more his understanding really doesn't affect me at all. I can let that black hole of anguish go. Freedom. That is what it means to me.

I can still hold him accountable and this I do. He is accountable for his actions. He is accountable for the fact that he does not treat his alocholism/disease. I am learning that accountability lies at my feet, not his. He really doesn't have to agree, understand, 'see it', or anything else. Accountability comes from my actions, not his. Accountability to other people/things in his life isn't my business so I don't need to worry about it.

I admit to struggling still with the co-parenting roll. The desire to 'make him understand' when it comes to his relationship with the kids is strong. I will not go there because I know in my head that it will do no good and likely only make things much worse. He'll be a disaster one week and human the next and I can not pick up that hook. I must walk past. I have accepted the reality but not quite made it to 'letting go'.

Bucyn

Yep, yep, yep!