FindingPeace1

Hey wonderful crew.
So, this summer has been good.
I have felt good.

I have gone around and around with AH until finally I was sick of it.
I told him last week (again, but this time he heard it) that I wasn't coming home. That I was applying for permanent jobs elsewhere and until something shifted with him or life, I didn't see that we could do anymore.
I didn't talk divorce. I told him I wasn't pleased with the choice, but it was the best choice for me given the circumstance.
He finally got it.
He cried.
He then, over the next few days, started talking counseling.
He researched some we could go to.
He said he'd go.
Now, he also is still nickle and diming me about it (meaning he has said numerous times, "You know, I never said I wouldn't go..."). This comes from him going once, months ago, after I said I thought I was done then. In the session, when the therapist asked, "Is there anything you are not comfortable talking to your wife about?" He answered, "No." The therapist followed up, "Not anything?" "Nope". And there I sat like a fool thinking, "Oh, look! He's turning over a new leaf!" (We fought on the way home when he shut down about something.)

So after that, he hated the therapist, he hated therapy, thought it was useless, didn't trust the particular therapist or any in general, had specific complaints about the therapist and then was busy for the next two weeks.
I was so pissed, I said scr*w it! I'll go on my own, because I don't need your b.s. And I did.

Now he says I wouldn't LET him go and I'm turning it around on him trying to imply he said he wouldn't go.

He has even said if we went to a different therapist, he doesn't think he would eventually let down his defenses.

Recently, I brought up his reply to the therapist and he said (at first) that maybe that was not totally correct, but then later in the conversation he said he couldn't remember the question OR his answer (!), but if he did say what I remember, then he MIS-SPOKE. Seriously? I said, "I'm sorry, but you were full of $h1t. (C'mon!) So, now he's mad that I am making him out to be a liar when that's not his INTENT. I said it comes across as a lie, regardless of his intent. He says I am going to leave him over meaningless semantics. This is what I mean by nickle and diming me.

So don't tell me you never said you wouldn't go! That's just semantical rediculousness. For all intents and purposes...GRRR!

And yet...
So I talked to two of my friends (instead of checking in with myself?) and they both said, "Give him a chance. He's willing to go. Isn't that what you asked for? You can't expect him to make emotional changes right away. Isn't that what therapy is for? Don't you owe him at least to try? Blah blah blah" and I turn around and tell him, "Okay, I'll come home and try it. But I am afraid the same thing is going to happen where I come all the way home and then you decide you hate it. And I don't feel confident because you have already said you wouldn't let down your defenses. I don't just want a warm body."

Well now he is hurt. He feels like I am questioning everything he says or does (I guess I am...rightfully so...) and my love is gone (its getting there...).

He's mad that I am not letting go of that one comment in the therapist's office. He says I won't let go of anything (which is pretty much true because it seems foolhardy to let go of these things when they are still festering, in my opinion). (I can hear you saying, "Walk away!")

He says he gets the feeling the rest of his life will be under a shroud of suspicion and disbelief where he will have to perpetually prove himself and I will be perpetually on the lookout for his next mistake. That everything he says is ammunition and he doesn't want to say anything or what he says will somehow prove (in his words) that he is a "big fat liar and a bad partner."
For me, if the fundamental issues aren't ever acknowldeged by him and there is no movement for change...I guess I would be perpetually mistrusting (again, I think, rightfully so)

In the end of his email he said, "So to answer your question about therapy as honestly as I can yes I probably will hate the therapist and will find it hard to open up to a stranger. But I am willing to engage in the process as best I can, but I don't feel confident that is enough for you." (which killed me and made me feel like a big jerk).

I had a dream after I told him I'd come back for therapy where I was standing (almost falling in and trying not to) over a deep black pit. I was screaming and screaming at the pit.

Not-so-secret dream messages, anyone?

I can hear anvil already saying, "Will you leave this guy alone already??!?"

Is it just all quacking? I mean, he hasn't shifted a whit on what is a problem or needs resolution, just on tactics.

A little voice says I am getting what I want and its still not enough (aka I have a problem of being unfair).

Another voice says all this drama and confusion is message enough to walk away...

Still afraid to walk away when he offers the smallest of crumbs...
Also feeling SO war weary at this point, the idea of going home just makes me tired.

Another friend said she thought I should renig and suggest HE go to therapy alone and if he did and made progress, I could reconsider going home. #1 I don't think he EVER would and #2, isn't that me managing HIS side of the street?

Help?
Thanks,
Peace

FindingPeace1

So, I was just reading the beginning of "The Intimacy Stuggle" and she says,
"Chemical Dependency: One Example of the Serious Deterioration of a Relationship
Where did it go wrong? How did it happen? Who is responsible? Where is the sense? What does it mean? Where will it all end? Circles and circles and circles and circles - all filled with confusion. Where did we go off the track? Is it possible to understand?"

Oh...that is so me right now.
Bad news bears in my head when I think about my AH. Sigh.

bookwyrm

Actions speak louder than words. You were ready to stay and start living a life you want to live. He's quacked at you but you know NOTHING has actually changed (and you don't have the power to change him). So what's made you change your mind about staying and working where you are? Guilt at not being 'fair'? You haven't actually gotten anything!!

This is your one life. Live it FOR YOU.

He can go to counselling if he wants without you being there. You can't control him - being there won't 'make' him more likely to go, you know that.

stilllearning

Hey FindingPeace,

I'm so glad that you had a great summer and your job sounds like it was totally idyllic. I know what you mean about circles - been there - and I started feeling weary reading your post without ever having been in a room with your husband.

There was a thread on here recently about passive aggression that fits my XABF to a tee and it sounds like your husband is kind of in the same vein. Here's a link:

What's Up with the Passive Aggressive Man? - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

It is unbelievably frustrating to try to make constructive progress or have a real conversation with someone who is adept at the circles. You're not being unfair. He seems to be alternating quacking with gaslighting, to be frank. He'll now go to therapy because you mean business. But he doesn't think he'll ever be able to let his defenses down (so therapy is already moot because even if he's there in body he's warning you that he won't participate). He thinks therapy is stupid and was "too busy" to follow up on one session - but he "never said he wouldn't go" (yes but he didn't go and refused to arrange a follow up with you to session number one - never being "unbusy" enough might not be an outright "no" to more therapy but same result). And he'll feel he has to "oerpetually prove himself" from here on in (neat way of cornering you into never being able to ask him to prove himself, ever - you and your absurd expectations!)

So basically, YOU are the one with the problem, YOU misunderstood his denouncing of therapy and refusal to go a second time as resistance, YOU are not to ask him to prove anything (like his commitment to the marriage by being willing to work on it, and YOU need to go into therapy understanding that he's not planning on letting down his guard (e.g. actually participating in the therapeutic process).

You're not leaving him over meaningless semantics. I suspect that if you leave it will be because he has failed, repeatedly, to commit to anything other than splitting hairs, trying to weasel out of his unwillingness to commit to trying to move forward/work on the relationship/find solutions. He knows you're unhappy and as far as I can tell he isn't doing anything to show that he cares either about your unhappiness or saving the relationship.

Under those circumstances, not going back for more of the same seems sound and healthy. Blaming you for leaving is passive aggressive nonsense - he's been refusing to show up to do anything but throw mental/verbal gymnastics at you for a good long while now.

Hugs,

SL

stilllearning

Sorry back again - I'm still chewing on this one, and full disclosure, I think it's because the conversation is so familiar to me:

"Recently, I brought up his reply to the therapist and he said (at first) that maybe that was not totally correct, but then later in the conversation he said he couldn't remember the question OR his answer (!), but if he did say what I remember, then he MIS-SPOKE. Seriously? I said, "I'm sorry, but you were full of $h1t. (C'mon!) So, now he's mad that I am making him out to be a liar when that's not his INTENT. I said it comes across as a lie, regardless of his intent. He says I am going to leave him over meaningless semantics. This is what I mean by nickle and diming me."

This isn't "meaningless" - this is the nut of it. He said, in therapy, out loud, that there is nothing he's uncomfortable talking about with you. This isn't true. You know it, he knows it and it's the reason he didn't want to go back - because he would actually have to follow through with something that a trained therapist heard him say right out loud. He can hedge, he can say that he misspoke, he can argue about intent. But I've been in your shoes. And when there is an ever increasing list of radioactive topics that you "cannot" discuss with your significant other (or are met with shutdown, retribution, manipulation when you do bring them up) then emotional honesty or intimacy become impossible.

And is it worth sitting in therapy with him if you can't believe anything that he says in there or he says months later that your interpretation of his "intent" was off? This is assuming that he "eventually" (a year/ two more years?) lets his guard down and then says something he actually means. (Quack, quack, gaslight ...)

Ok, am done now - I think I'm a little triggered so forgive me if this is an onslaught.

You sound like you are making huge strides for yourself. This is just my two cents worth.

Hugs (again)

SL

coffeedrinker

Stilllearning makes some really good points. I especially agree with the one about the dishonesty around what he said in therapist's office (nothing he is uncomfortable talking about).

I was thinking the same as your friend who suggested a sit back and see approach.
Yes, maybe he won't go unless you're there coaxing or reminding him. But isn't this exactly what we hear on SR all the time, with regard to them needed to get sober, find treatment, etc, on their own, WITHOUT our "help" ? Or else it won't be real? Or else it doesn't really stick - if they are doing it because we're pressuring or giving ultimatums? That is how I see this.

He has not truly bought into the idea of therapy because he NEEDS IT. He wants to do what he needs to do to pacify you ---- I'm not saying this is a manipulation or posturing ---- I think it is real that he is frightened of losing you, he wants you to come back, and he is willing to (at least for the moment) make a commitment to do what you say is needed.

It reminds me of the times xabf said he could see clearly what was needed (surrender) and was willing to go to any lengths. At the time of the statement, he meant it. But the follow through was never there for an extended period of time.

suki44883

Just my opinion: You are already away from him, living your life. You have already taken that first huge step. Yes, you are falling for crumbs as he is already talking about how he'll probably hate going to therapy (meaning in all likelihood he'll stop going). Going back is just putting yourself back on the roller coaster. I think your idea of looking for other jobs away from home is a good one. He's only saying what he thinks you want to hear in order to get you back in the house. If you were miserable before, there's a better than good chance you will be miserable again. Start living your life for YOU! Again, this is just my opinion from reading your posts.

naive

hi there-

good to hear from you. that conversation with your husband made my head spin. there's nothing to hold onto in it...it's all so...so vapid and empty.

so there's nothing he's unwilling to speak about with you? if i recall correctly, finances are off-limits, his previous relationships are off-limits, his drinking is off-limits...

i shudder to imagine what is going on in your home in your absence.

findingpeace, there is no point in dragging a horse to water if he's not thirsty.

ok, imagine this. imagine you were him. what would you do? if my cherished partner was saying they would leave because of my emotional unavailability, i would get help. i wouldn't wait for couple's therapy, i would go of my own volition.

i would go alone, and then perhaps, after some work, we could go together and begin to heal the rift.

additionally, the emotional unavailability isn't the only issue, is it? let's not forget the drinking and lying, amongst other disturbing habits.

so, while you have been away, what exactly has he done to address your very valid concerns? is he in AA? has he stopped drinking? is he in therapy?

or, is he merely writing you and blame shifting?

i think it's a red flag that you feel tired when you consider going back. no wonder!

you know, it doesn't matter if he never said he wouldn't go to counseling. please, pay attention to what he does not what he says! the reality is that he hasn't gone.

you didn't need him to go. you went anyway, without him. he has the same choice.

another thing, i really don't see the point of couple therapy whilst he is still drinking. if he is still drinking, then i doubt very much that the therapy would yield fruit.

i would render a guess that if you do choose to go back, it might solidify your position to move on without him and his baggage. for myself, i had to go back after a break and then everything became crystal clear pretty quick.

thanks for checking in and keep in touch,
naive

coyote21

Yes to all the above. Funny, as I was reading through the responses, just as I got to niave's post, I was thinking, wow, this is making my head spin.

Seems like this whole stand is being made on something really insignificant, semantics. The REAL problem is much bigger IMHO.

I am tired just reading this, wild horses couldn't drag me back under the same roof with active alcoholism. I can't imagine.

I can tell you from first hand experience, that counseling doesn't work till the alcoholism is arrested, this is from two separate counselors.

I also agree that going back may be just what you need, to remove all doubt.

Oh, and you might want to consider joining "The Damned Book Club"

Good luck, keep coming back.


Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyoye

Paintbaby

Crazy-making, isn't it?

These are not the words, and more importantly, the ACTIONS of a man who wants to change. It sounds like he is just doing the quacking in order to buy time to get you back into that alcoholic rut with him, where nothing changes. He is saying the pretty things in order to basically wait you out, until things can go back to how they were---him comfortable and convenienced, and you miserable and pulling your hair out. My STBXAH was a master at this type of manipulation.

Don't buy it. You are on the right path. Go do what you need to do to live YOUR best life, and leave him to figure out his. Or not.

NYC_Chick

I have heard all of the same things. Take your name out and mine and my xabf's name in.

Do what you think is best for you. If you want to try, then you should, but this is the way this usually goes. Take care of you : )

Learn2Live

I say let HIM go to his own damn counseling. Why do YOU have to go? Have you not done enough work already? This marriage counseling crap is just one more tactic the alcoholic is using to keep you hooked. IMO, your problem with the marriage is that HE is not working on HIM. That was the whole point of getting away from him, wasn't it? Sorry if I'm off-base here.

FindingPeace1

I love you folks and thank you. On a related thread...
A guy at work always comes in to the office and has to touch in some way - he puts his icey water bottle on your neck, or tickles or picks up your ponytail and tickles you with it...into women's personal space and not okay. Otherwise, he's a nice guy and isn't creepy, and yet, it's uncomfortable.
So, I decided to say something. I've been fretting and worrying how to say it and how not to make him uncomfortable and how to not burn that bridge with him, etc. etc. and finally I realized - ALL THIS FUSS! His feelings and reaction are irrelevant! I feel uncomfortable; I need to set a boundary to say no; he can do what he wants!
I let myself get all tied in knots and I have to keep reminding myself to slow down, clarify and make it simple.
peace

wanting

I've definitely heard the "nothing I do will ever be enough" BS before. He sounds like he's not truly interested in changing anything. He wants a checklist of to-do items and your promise to be happy when he's checked them all off. As long as he fills the chair in therapy, that should be good enough for you. Otherwise you're the one with the problem.

I would not move back for this. It sounds miserable.

whereisthisgoin

For me, it's so hard to figure out what the final straw is. Especially, when a fraction of me still loves a fraction of my husband.

I have been doing a lot of reading on this board and the one fact that shines through, is that until an A is getting help (rehab), working on the marriage just doesn't work. Only the A can make the choice to get help. I get the feeling neither yours or my A are anywhere close to making that change.

So, we have choices. A life of the circles, and for me, personally, feeling like I am losing my mind...or getting out. I'm getting closer and I think you are too.

I wish us both luck!

LaTeeDa

For years, I was locked in a power struggle with my AH. I needed to prove I was right and get him to admit it. He became skilled at getting me to question myself. At some point, it no longer mattered what he thought of me and my choices. It didn't matter whether he (or anyone else) agreed with me. I had to do what was right for me and stop trying to mold myself into some vision of what I had convinced myself I should be. I'd rather be happy than right.

L

nodaybut2day

Holy cow FindingPeace...I read your post and I found myself zoning out on it, just like I did when I was with XAH and he would go on and go, talking us in circles, until I left the conversation feeling frustrated, angry and doubting my own sanity.

All the exchanges with your partner remind me of a SUPER tangled up ball of yarn that's beyond hope...even if it you did manage to untangle the yarn, it would be all damaged from pulling at the thread. Better to throw it out and work on something else...

There comes a point when you just hike up your big girl panties (who used this expression?? I just love it), don the B*tch Mantle and walk away from the madness.

Learn2Live

I am the same frickin' way, always worried about how people are going to take things, afraid to make people feel uncomfortable, worried about everyone else's feelings. Scr*w that! HE obviously has no problem making everyone else feel uncomfortable; who cares if he feels a little uncomfortable when you tell him to stop? Right?!

Learn2Live

Thanks FindingPeace. For some reason your posts seem to always make me want to stand up for myself