what's stopping me? What's stopping so many of us?
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Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,057
Originally Posted by transformyself 
Yes, this is true. And I've known this for awhile. Question remains-why?
Denial. Wanting to believe he's changed-just because he tells me he has and can look like he has for a little while. Until I really need him that is, then he's back to being the alcoholic we all know and I shouldn't be surprised.
...What a selfish, threatened king baby.
...Fact is, he is pickled. No matter how well he cleans up, he's freaking pickled. AND here's a really important part- he packs down resentment until he's acting out like a child.
Denial. Wanting to believe he's changed-just because he tells me he has and can look like he has for a little while. Until I really need him that is, then he's back to being the alcoholic we all know and I shouldn't be surprised.
...What a selfish, threatened king baby.
...Fact is, he is pickled. No matter how well he cleans up, he's freaking pickled. AND here's a really important part- he packs down resentment until he's acting out like a child.
The denial part of the cycle is a hard one, but eventually the reality becomes larger than the fantasy, until the imagined fairy tale is fully recognized for what it is. That's when we can let it go.
The anger, as long as it's directed outward, towards healing, and not towards yourself, is your good friend here. It helped me to learn that when anger causes you to reach for something new, instead of trying to fight to keep something of no value, that is when the healing starts.
You'll know when you're ready to let go of the denial (fantasy). You're working through it at whatever pace you need to. :ghug3
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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I wanted to tell you that you are not alone. I keep letting my husband back into my life too, and I really couldn't tell anyone why. Stubbornness?
I love your threads. Please keep journaling online as it helps me to know that someone else struggles too.
Its like there's some sort of disconnect, and on some core level I don't believe I deserve better in my heart, but I believe it in my head. Sigh.
(((((transform)))))
I love your threads. Please keep journaling online as it helps me to know that someone else struggles too.
Its like there's some sort of disconnect, and on some core level I don't believe I deserve better in my heart, but I believe it in my head. Sigh.
(((((transform)))))
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 302
When my STBXAH was at that point (begging, pleading, quacking) I realized - through help from you all - that the only way I could possibly stand my ground was to adopt a script.
Every time he begged or pleaded me to take him back, give him another chance, he got the same answer.
"If you're still sober and I'm still single in 5 years, then we'll talk."
The years varied. Sometimes it was 5, sometime 2. But I stuck to the general phrase.
After I'd said it a dozen or two times, I started believing it. (I'd mostly just said it to be consistent and not give him what I thought would be false hope.) And I kept saying it. Like I said, it took me awhile to believe it, and it was really hard to stick to my decided phrase, but it has worked. (We don't have children, and he's halfway across the country - which helps a LOT in staying NC.) Not that I declared I wasn't going to talk to him, but pretty much the only answer I would give him was the above statement. And he's quit calling me. The divorce is dragging out, but NC is a blessing.
Good luck Transform - I wish you the best and strength to cope.
D
Every time he begged or pleaded me to take him back, give him another chance, he got the same answer.
"If you're still sober and I'm still single in 5 years, then we'll talk."
The years varied. Sometimes it was 5, sometime 2. But I stuck to the general phrase.
After I'd said it a dozen or two times, I started believing it. (I'd mostly just said it to be consistent and not give him what I thought would be false hope.) And I kept saying it. Like I said, it took me awhile to believe it, and it was really hard to stick to my decided phrase, but it has worked. (We don't have children, and he's halfway across the country - which helps a LOT in staying NC.) Not that I declared I wasn't going to talk to him, but pretty much the only answer I would give him was the above statement. And he's quit calling me. The divorce is dragging out, but NC is a blessing.
Good luck Transform - I wish you the best and strength to cope.
D
I Love Who I Am
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
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right now i don't think you'd KNOW serenity if it came up and bit your toe. you've been so long in hostile, angry and aggressive anything else is foreign territory.
change will come when you CHANGE your behaviors. when you truly begin to DO things differently. SEE things differently. TREAT things differently.
so I just had a memory of one of the most impactful times I was "done." It was egregious, AH said and did some things that horrified me. I filed for divorce (this was while he was living with OW in July 2008) and it was 6 weeks later that he came to me and wanted to reconcile.
We've been doing this for so long. I think the lure of having a happy ending -with him being the person I want him to be rather than who he is-is a huge part of why I go back. Plus, and this is very important- I gain so much self esteem and happiness from being on my own and working and raising the kids that when he wants to come back around I can handle it.
Just like an alcoholic-I can't. Can't take one drink. Yes, I'm strong but not stronger than alcoholism. I think that's where I am today.
I Love Who I Am
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
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And I do want to thank you though, Anvil, for remiding me that I do know how to be still in the moment and let uncomfortable feelings flow through me. Just did it this weekend when I got two calls in succession at my sons swim meet. Call #1- no one to do distribution. Call #2, right after committing to do the state wide distribution myself, got the call from the realitor trying to sell my foreclosed house that they wanted to put a lock box on my front door and come and go whenever they want.
I sat right there on that bench under the tree on that gorgious summer day and made myself sit still. Breathed. Talked myself down and told myself it will be ok. I found a place to move to last week, now i just need to actually move.
Thanks for reminding me of how powerful that is. It puts the power to control my life back into my own hands. Not react. Make a plan and execute it.
I sat right there on that bench under the tree on that gorgious summer day and made myself sit still. Breathed. Talked myself down and told myself it will be ok. I found a place to move to last week, now i just need to actually move.
Thanks for reminding me of how powerful that is. It puts the power to control my life back into my own hands. Not react. Make a plan and execute it.
I Love Who I Am
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Cymbal thank you! Yes, there is a clear disconnect, and that's what I'm trying to get at. gotta dig it out. And DMC, what a great idea. Stick to the script. That'll give me tons of power back too. Thank you!
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
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You're a genius, DMC. This is what I call, "Fake it till you make it."
Every time he begged or pleaded me to take him back, give him another chance, he got the same answer.
"If you're still sober and I'm still single in 5 years, then we'll talk."
The years varied. Sometimes it was 5, sometime 2. But I stuck to the general phrase.
After I'd said it a dozen or two times, I started believing it.
"If you're still sober and I'm still single in 5 years, then we'll talk."
The years varied. Sometimes it was 5, sometime 2. But I stuck to the general phrase.
After I'd said it a dozen or two times, I started believing it.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 218
"Just like an alcoholic-I can't. Can't take one drink. Yes, I'm strong but not stronger than alcoholism. I think that's where I am today."
For what it's worth I think that this is one of the most overlooked factors for alanonics/codies. It is -just- like an addiction. These relationships can make us feel sublime, when they're showing signs of hope, when they're going well, when it looks like there's progress. Just like a substance they can put us into the stratosphere. I read it here often - when a loved one has cut back or said the right things or "straightened up" for a spell you can feel the relief and happiness coming out the monitor.
But just like a substance, the further things progress (along with the disease), the more devastating the effects and the insanity, the more "stuck" we become and the more we are hell-bent on "controlling" the relationship (with alcohol or the alcoholic) to prove that we can get the desired outcome. For alcoholics that is drinking without acknowledging the consequences, for the alanonic that is getting the happy ending and holding onto the dream.
It hit me like a tonne of bricks this week that while the alcoholic will do anything to protect the disease - we are also wired to do anything to protect our position. That might mean turning a blind eye, hanging onto hope or refusing to let go of the dream.
I'm sober five years and I honestly think that alanonics have it harder. I can circle a date on a calendar that shows when I had my last drink - harder to circle a date when I stopped "the dance" - and it's easy to get drawn back in.
Transform - it's hard to stop the dance. Every bit as hard as it is to put down the bottle. But if alcoholics decided to try to figure out "why" they had the urge to drink before they put down the bottle, then this disease would take even more lives than it already does. I've read a few posts on here lately from people who are miserable in the dance but want to stay in it until they figure out "why" it's so alluring. Could be any one of a hundred reasons - family of origin, abandonment issues, you name it. Same for alcoholism - people have all manner of deeply damaging baggage in their trunks before they find sobriety. But if you were on fire you wouldn't decide to calmly figure out "why" - you'd just jump in a pond or roll on the ground. Alcoholics have to stop bargaining and trying to figure out "why" and just accept where they are and not take a drink. Sounds simple but it's incredibly hard because this disease has deep hooks.
For us alanonics, it's not really any different. We are wired to keep dancing the dance until it kills us or sends us to the loony bin. We can waste years trying to figure out "why" - and the "why" is valid but all I know is that while you're in the dance it's a downward spiral and you're unlikely to get any clear answers about anything.
Hugs,
SL.
For what it's worth I think that this is one of the most overlooked factors for alanonics/codies. It is -just- like an addiction. These relationships can make us feel sublime, when they're showing signs of hope, when they're going well, when it looks like there's progress. Just like a substance they can put us into the stratosphere. I read it here often - when a loved one has cut back or said the right things or "straightened up" for a spell you can feel the relief and happiness coming out the monitor.
But just like a substance, the further things progress (along with the disease), the more devastating the effects and the insanity, the more "stuck" we become and the more we are hell-bent on "controlling" the relationship (with alcohol or the alcoholic) to prove that we can get the desired outcome. For alcoholics that is drinking without acknowledging the consequences, for the alanonic that is getting the happy ending and holding onto the dream.
It hit me like a tonne of bricks this week that while the alcoholic will do anything to protect the disease - we are also wired to do anything to protect our position. That might mean turning a blind eye, hanging onto hope or refusing to let go of the dream.
I'm sober five years and I honestly think that alanonics have it harder. I can circle a date on a calendar that shows when I had my last drink - harder to circle a date when I stopped "the dance" - and it's easy to get drawn back in.
Transform - it's hard to stop the dance. Every bit as hard as it is to put down the bottle. But if alcoholics decided to try to figure out "why" they had the urge to drink before they put down the bottle, then this disease would take even more lives than it already does. I've read a few posts on here lately from people who are miserable in the dance but want to stay in it until they figure out "why" it's so alluring. Could be any one of a hundred reasons - family of origin, abandonment issues, you name it. Same for alcoholism - people have all manner of deeply damaging baggage in their trunks before they find sobriety. But if you were on fire you wouldn't decide to calmly figure out "why" - you'd just jump in a pond or roll on the ground. Alcoholics have to stop bargaining and trying to figure out "why" and just accept where they are and not take a drink. Sounds simple but it's incredibly hard because this disease has deep hooks.
For us alanonics, it's not really any different. We are wired to keep dancing the dance until it kills us or sends us to the loony bin. We can waste years trying to figure out "why" - and the "why" is valid but all I know is that while you're in the dance it's a downward spiral and you're unlikely to get any clear answers about anything.
Hugs,
SL.
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,059
hi transform-
i do understand your situation. it sounds as if you are still attracted to your husband and want things to work out. you haven't reached your bottom yet; your mind has but you are still emotionally attached. he is the father of your children, afterall.
you know yourself the benefit of no contact and the peace and clarity which comes. since you can't afford a therapist, perhaps consider getting to alanon.
lately, the phrase "lean into it" has helped me to work towards my life goals. it's not about doing everything in an instant, rather "lean into it" and work in baby-steps towards an overall goal.
also, don't be too hard on yourself. each day is a new day to start afresh.
naive
i do understand your situation. it sounds as if you are still attracted to your husband and want things to work out. you haven't reached your bottom yet; your mind has but you are still emotionally attached. he is the father of your children, afterall.
you know yourself the benefit of no contact and the peace and clarity which comes. since you can't afford a therapist, perhaps consider getting to alanon.
lately, the phrase "lean into it" has helped me to work towards my life goals. it's not about doing everything in an instant, rather "lean into it" and work in baby-steps towards an overall goal.
also, don't be too hard on yourself. each day is a new day to start afresh.
naive
I Love Who I Am
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Well that sucked
Naive you're amazing, as usual
I just dropped the kids off to him, then he drove me back because who ever has the kids has the car. I'll have to put some crazy firm boundaries in place, like bringing my bike to drop off the car and kids so we're not in the car together.
He was testy and weird, tried flirting with me and being funny but I turned my back to him and gave youngest son some instructions. That's when he became hostile.
It'll take some getting used to again-no contact. I am sad. I can't go into his house, can't pretend everything will be ok again if he just pays attention to me, because that doesn't make everything all better. Can't fool myself again. God I hate this part.
it sounds as if you are still attracted to your husband and want things to work out. you haven't reached your bottom yet; your mind has but you are still emotionally attached. he is the father of your children, afterall.
He was testy and weird, tried flirting with me and being funny but I turned my back to him and gave youngest son some instructions. That's when he became hostile.
It'll take some getting used to again-no contact. I am sad. I can't go into his house, can't pretend everything will be ok again if he just pays attention to me, because that doesn't make everything all better. Can't fool myself again. God I hate this part.
I Love Who I Am
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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oh yeah, here we go
AH just called me, all hostile, suggesting I get a business loan and buy a car so we don't have to share one any more. Then escalated into yelling at me.
I forgot how horrible he can be when we're not together. That's the thing. He's a mixed bag of god knows what. It's predictable to a point, like, I can predict he will either be hostile, flirty, kind, passive aggressive or drunk. I just don't know when.
Best plan of action: detach, work on myself and not worry about it.
I forgot how horrible he can be when we're not together. That's the thing. He's a mixed bag of god knows what. It's predictable to a point, like, I can predict he will either be hostile, flirty, kind, passive aggressive or drunk. I just don't know when.
Best plan of action: detach, work on myself and not worry about it.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Stilllearning said exactly what I was going to say. I'm an alcoholic who has been in two marriages to alcoholics. One was/is in recovery, the other I left when he went back to drinking. Also in a long-term relationship with someone who was emotionally abusive. In both of the latter relationships, I had that same kind of "moment of clarity" where I was just DONE, just as I was when I got sober.
I don't know how to hurry "done" along, but I also know that figuring out "why" I got into and stayed in the relationships was no more help to me than figuring out "why" I drank. Figuring out the "why" might be useful to avoid getting into ANOTHER bad relationship, but it won't help you get out of this one.
I just plain got worn out and didn't want to live the way I had been living anymore. And I took it on faith that if that was how I felt, the situation had to change, and I was the only one capable of instigating the change. I had to leave the men, I had to put the plug in the jug.
I don't know how to hurry "done" along, but I also know that figuring out "why" I got into and stayed in the relationships was no more help to me than figuring out "why" I drank. Figuring out the "why" might be useful to avoid getting into ANOTHER bad relationship, but it won't help you get out of this one.
I just plain got worn out and didn't want to live the way I had been living anymore. And I took it on faith that if that was how I felt, the situation had to change, and I was the only one capable of instigating the change. I had to leave the men, I had to put the plug in the jug.
I Love Who I Am
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I've been thinking about the role fear is playing in all of this.
I made a decision in 2004 to not, to the best of my capability, make any decisions or take any action based on fear.
I had to closely examine my motives, be in touch with myself and be brutally honest, but man did I do some amazing things.
Thank you, all.
And I know what the recovering alcoholics are saying too, about how the why doen'st matter after a while. All that matters is how you feel and you can't take it anymore.
****, I've been there too. Not sure how I ended up back on the "bottle" of my AH again. I think it'll take me some time, though cause we've been doing this again since May. Difference is, instead of there just being shame and fear and sadness, I also feel excitement about going it alone again and being away from the drama and crap.
I made a decision in 2004 to not, to the best of my capability, make any decisions or take any action based on fear.
I had to closely examine my motives, be in touch with myself and be brutally honest, but man did I do some amazing things.
Thank you, all.
And I know what the recovering alcoholics are saying too, about how the why doen'st matter after a while. All that matters is how you feel and you can't take it anymore.
****, I've been there too. Not sure how I ended up back on the "bottle" of my AH again. I think it'll take me some time, though cause we've been doing this again since May. Difference is, instead of there just being shame and fear and sadness, I also feel excitement about going it alone again and being away from the drama and crap.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Just don't be surprised if you find yourself at loose ends WITHOUT all the drama and the crap. Getting away from it involves certain withdrawal symptoms, not unlike those we alcoholics experience when we quit drinking. Alcoholics drink to feel "normal" and when we get stressed out, pissed off, bored, etc., that's when we most feel the loss of our "medicine" that makes us feel what passes for normal.
So when you leave, there is this void for awhile, and until you work to build your life the way YOU want it to be, there will be urges to re-create the drama one way or another. Expect it, don't get thrown by it. I know so many newly sober people who think there's something "wrong" because they feel weird when they experience these feelings and can't numb them out the way they used to. It takes time to get used to reacting in healthier ways. But those times are when relapse is a danger--for the alcoholic AND for someone recovering from an unhealthy relationship.
Just a heads-up.
So when you leave, there is this void for awhile, and until you work to build your life the way YOU want it to be, there will be urges to re-create the drama one way or another. Expect it, don't get thrown by it. I know so many newly sober people who think there's something "wrong" because they feel weird when they experience these feelings and can't numb them out the way they used to. It takes time to get used to reacting in healthier ways. But those times are when relapse is a danger--for the alcoholic AND for someone recovering from an unhealthy relationship.
Just a heads-up.
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T- as you know, I'm in the process of leaving, too. I pondered on it for months and finally made "the" decision. I knew I'd have moments of weakness (and do) but I remember that I made this decision with a clear head and over many months. Now, I'm just on auto-pilot putting one foot in front of the other and soon it will be 'done'. I trust that clear-headed girl that was honest with herself, respected her own need for happiness and trust that she will not steer me wrong.
One foot in front of the other. Day after day.
One foot in front of the other. Day after day.
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Quote by Stillearning: ((Alcoholics have to stop bargaining and trying to figure out "why" and just accept where they are and not take a drink. Sounds simple but it's incredibly hard because this disease has deep hooks.
For us alanonics, it's not really any different. We are wired to keep dancing the dance until it kills us or sends us to the loony bin. We can waste years trying to figure out "why" - and the "why" is valid but all I know is that while you're in the dance it's a downward spiral and you're unlikely to get any clear answers about anything.))
Dear Tranny, how about doing as an addict does, quit your DOC first, and then look at why you are hooked, why he is your DOC?
You have done a lot of soul seeking and work on the why, what and how up to now and are no closer to an answer, and still stuck with someone who drives you bananas, so I suggest you try a different tack now.
Go NC and do whatever it needs to cut this relationship, divorce perhaps.
Let's face it, it sure can't hurt to try another way, can it?
God bless
For us alanonics, it's not really any different. We are wired to keep dancing the dance until it kills us or sends us to the loony bin. We can waste years trying to figure out "why" - and the "why" is valid but all I know is that while you're in the dance it's a downward spiral and you're unlikely to get any clear answers about anything.))
Dear Tranny, how about doing as an addict does, quit your DOC first, and then look at why you are hooked, why he is your DOC?
You have done a lot of soul seeking and work on the why, what and how up to now and are no closer to an answer, and still stuck with someone who drives you bananas, so I suggest you try a different tack now.
Go NC and do whatever it needs to cut this relationship, divorce perhaps.
Let's face it, it sure can't hurt to try another way, can it?
God bless
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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I just wanted to say that you and I are in a similar place.
I allowed my husband to come back after he was sober for a whole year. I had set out three conditions 1) He get sober 2) He go to meetings 3) We go to counseling. I really thought that I was safe. Lol! I didn't think he'd do it, but he managed somehow, so after a two year separation he moved back. I thought that I was done and was looking forward to the new path I was on. My husband and I have had a long and painful relationship, and I've been dancing! Lol!
I remember one sister said that I was now "living the dream" of us both being in a program, and I thought about seeing if it stuck before projecting happily ever after. I was not anticipating telling her about recent relapse. I'm not sure how to cope, but I told him that I am not living with active addiction because of anxiety that I notice now out of the fog.
Anyway you are going to be just fine whether or not you and your husband get a divorce or stay together, and you get to take as much time as you need to decide. I think when I started Al-Anon I had better tools to help me create safe boundaries. L2L has a post about Boundaries thats so appropriate.
You're not alone! We all must walk our path.
(((((hugs)))))
I allowed my husband to come back after he was sober for a whole year. I had set out three conditions 1) He get sober 2) He go to meetings 3) We go to counseling. I really thought that I was safe. Lol! I didn't think he'd do it, but he managed somehow, so after a two year separation he moved back. I thought that I was done and was looking forward to the new path I was on. My husband and I have had a long and painful relationship, and I've been dancing! Lol!
I remember one sister said that I was now "living the dream" of us both being in a program, and I thought about seeing if it stuck before projecting happily ever after. I was not anticipating telling her about recent relapse. I'm not sure how to cope, but I told him that I am not living with active addiction because of anxiety that I notice now out of the fog.
Anyway you are going to be just fine whether or not you and your husband get a divorce or stay together, and you get to take as much time as you need to decide. I think when I started Al-Anon I had better tools to help me create safe boundaries. L2L has a post about Boundaries thats so appropriate.
You're not alone! We all must walk our path.
(((((hugs)))))
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