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Old 07-31-2010, 04:07 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Resentment is a very dangerous thing. Especially while driving, I'm so distracted, talking and yelling to myself. Thank God for Bluetooth, I don't look like a nut job.
I have felt very dangerous driving lately. My head is all wrapped up in my current situation and sometimes it's as if I am barely even seeing the road. Scary stuff.
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Old 07-31-2010, 05:12 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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I think that is one of the key things...when we become CONSUMED by another person's stuff whatever IT is.
We think about it/tem constantly.
We choose our actions according to it/them constantly.
Our feelings are determined by it/them constantly.
It/them is basicallly ruling our lives.

In the beginning perhaps some of this reaction is a normal response to insanity but a healthy person steps away as soon as they see it and they do see it for what it is more or less as soon as it shows itself.

There is no 100% healthy or 100% unhealthy. We are all on a continuum, but hopefully we learn and move toward healthy as long as we live.
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Old 07-31-2010, 05:38 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Through being married to an A..and coming to SR and Alanon I realized as a child I never learned to take care of myself. My father was an abusive A and my mom being a battered wife wasnt able to really care for me so I grew up being as invisible as possible and learned how to make it through life.

But now I see how taking care of myself was never really instilled in me. I didnt finish school because I didnt want to. I never once thought about what was best for me. How to make my life better etc. All I knew was to get a job, make money and find a husband. I never really knew you were supposed to be happy in life. I thought most people just worked and then went to sleep. So at 35 I see how I took care of my mother, then my sister and then the A..And when I needed these people most they werent really there for me. It was such an eye opener. I was finally alone and had to take care of me. I wish I was more like an A and focus only on me. More and more I am seeing how I dont focus on me and what is best for me at all. I never understood why people worked out, got dressed up for work etc. I didnt understand the point of feeling good about one self. Its still an odd concept for me but I am slowly learning.

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Old 07-31-2010, 11:48 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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I wrote this post and then almost didn't post it. I hope it isn't taken the wrong way. We alcoholics don't deserve you. My intention of this post is to help you understand our thinking a bit more. ----


Hi All -

I am a recovering alcoholic. My thinking is broken.

My alcoholic brain tells me that:

1- The world revolves around me
2- It is everyone else's fault
3- I'm not really an alcoholic (the last time wasn't so bad)

So, we need recovery to change our thinking. Early in recovery, frankly, we need others who have recovered to think for us, as we are incapable of overcoming the alcoholic thinking. This is where programs like AA help a lot.

Recovery changes our thinking to:
1- A lot of what happens in life is out of my control, and I shouldn't try to control it
2- I can only control myself, and I need to focus on my own actions and when I am wrong I can only "clean up my side of the street"
3- I am alcoholic and cannot drink.
4- I need to work on the problems for which alcohol was my solution.
5- I should think about others before I think about myself.

So yes, most of our early thinking is about us. It takes a while to get to #5 above. This may sound selfish, but in reality, it is often the first time that we have truly taken responsibility for ourselves in a long time. We have to start there. As we progress in recovery, we will begin to make amends to those we have harmed, but we can't get sober for someone else. It just doesn't work.

But, you also don't have to wait around for us to go through this. We must accept that we have hurt you and accept whatever happens.

I'm not trying to defend alcoholics in any way. I usually tell most people in posts to leave us, unless we are actively working a program of recovery. The key is "actively" working which to me will show up as:

- honesty with ourselves and you about everything
- tolerance of other people and ideas
- willingness to try anything to maintain our sobriety
- taking specific action to work on our problems (usually fear, anxiety, anger, depression, self-loathing)
- open-mindedness to listen
- and, not drinking, never, ever. No excuses.

For me, this is a combination of SR + AA + Working with other alcoholics. I do something for my recovery every single day. And even with all this, I am just one drink away from being back where I was.

I am sorry that we treat you all so badly. You deserve more.
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:40 AM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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As a recovering addict AND codie, I see a lot of similarities in both recoveries. As an addict, I had to focus on me. I have loved ones who are addicts, and despite the fact that I KNOW I can't change them, the codie in me tried, really hard, to do just that.

In both recoveries, I've had to ask myself the 3 c's...can I change it? can I cure it? Did I cause it? With the addiction recovery, the answer was usually "yes". With my codie recovery, the answer is almost always "no".

I have to stop myself, ask if I'm "beating a dead horse". For me, when I get enmeshed in someone else's problems, I want to get numb. NOT a good thing. I'm slowly learning to do what makes me most at peace. I still slip (codie-wise) but I'm learning that when I'm absolutely miserable, it's time to let go. In a very ironic way, I'm grateful I'm an addict. I want to stay clean, more than anything. When I get to the point of "I want to be numb", it's like a huge red flag to me that I've got to do whatever it takes to get back my serenity.

Thanks to all of you, here, I can do that.

I truly regret what I did to my loved ones, but every single one of them is SO supportive and proud of me. My dad is even learning (very slowly, but still) some of my codie recovery ways.

I've spent the better part of my 48 years being seriously messed up. Thanks to recovery, and SR, I can honestly say I'm a totally different person.

I could think of my addiction as a horrible thing, but I prefer to reflect on what someone in my old AA group told me...."it takes what it takes, to get you where you need to be".

Hugs and prayers,

Amy
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Old 08-01-2010, 05:05 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by FarawayFromCars View Post
I have personally found reading the posts in there to be enlightening rather than a negative experience. It helped me to better understand what my sister--an actively drinking alcoholic not in recovery--is going through. Through reading about their experiences I have learned that what my sister is doing is what alcoholics do. I find it much easier now to relate her behavior to the disease and consequently have been able to let go much more.

Yes we cry, scream, type, pull our hair out because of "their" behavior, but what I've learned is that, like my alcoholic sister, alcoholics will do what their disease dictates them to do, and until they realize something within and want to change, they won't. And their alcoholic traits will continue.


I've also been inspired by many who are "on the other side" on the forum--i.e. have decided to change and are actively seeking recovery. Their stories give me hope that my sister will one day find her way back.
Hi, just want to ditto this, i feel exactly the same, i read posts from all forums, really helps put things in perspective! My problem was my AH who i can say i understood so much better from being here, thanks SR. FarawayFromCars, just wanted to tell you there is hope, my AH hit major rock bottom last Sunday! I had to leave for a few days with the kids until he sobered up again! but i am back home and he is now a RAH on Day 7, there is hope, just give your sister over to HP, he loves and cares for each one of us!
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Old 08-01-2010, 04:02 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DesertEyes View Post
And you want to know what the alkies say after they sneak around _this_ forum cuz they're curious and have too much time on their hands? They scratch their heads and wonder why we spend so much time begging, crying, controlling, yelling and manipulating them. After all, if we _really_ didn't like living with them, we would just leave. Seems really simple to them.
Umm....maybe because the alkies beg and promise, cry and scream, threaten and beg some more that their enablers give them another chance, that their enablers believe them this time, that THIS time it will be different, that they love us and need their enablers...

In short Alkies spend a lot of time begging, crying, controlling, yelling and manipulating their enablers. And for a while it works. And sometimes Alkies have so effed up the lives of their partners, that the partners are trapped fiancially or otherwise.

Do alkies really not see a connection between their behavior and the reason their spouses stay? If they don't, why do they do it? Any alkie who scratches his head and wonders why their partner stays is LYING!!!!!! This is just another alkie game, where they are not responsible for their part in a bad relationship. (and I'm not excusing myself. I did not stay, after he shoved me, I didn't even want to talk to him; and my alkie did not want me; he wanted his mommy, so we skipped this dynamic).
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Old 08-01-2010, 04:13 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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This is my opinion and mine only and will likely not be a popular one: but I think alkies are completely a waste of time. Most don't get better; most get worse and worse and they suck away your life. Of those who do, many don't want to continue the relationship. Of those who do, you are still rebuilding a relationship from a huge deficit with a new person you hardly know...and one who a decade later can slide back into alkie-dom and start the hell all over.

I'm not saying they aren't worthy people and valuable in the eyes of God and society, I'm not saying they are unworthy of love or should be tortured or put to death or are unloved by even their mother. Or that they always were that way and always will be, or that they are unredeemable. I'm not saying any of that. Only that they are worthless partners the vast, vast majority of the time.

The other forum did a survey not too long ago among recovering alkies and asked, what do you miss most about what you lost due to alcohol? Very few said their partner or that they were greatful they did not lose their partner. The ones who mentioned family, mostly regretted hurting their relationship with their kids, or hurting their parents. Very little remorse or acknowledgment of what they put their spouse through. The pain they (most of them) inflicted on their partners just did not matter or concern them ever.

And that's something to think about when you are dealing with an alkie. Even if your partner stops drinking and heals, you will probably never or are unlikely to get points or credit for having stayed by them. So if you stay, you need to have a better reason than that.
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Old 08-01-2010, 07:22 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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I hear ya Bucyn.

Just remember, alcoholics believe that we are sicker than they are.
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Old 08-01-2010, 07:41 PM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Hm,

I just came from an AA meeting where at least a couple of the men who were present expressed regret about the way they treated their partners when they were drinking. Actually, I hear it quite often, and even when they are talking about women they are now divorced from, and at least one who shoulders part of the blame for his wife's infidelity AFTER he got sober.

I also continue to be good friends with my first husband, who has been sober 30 years, and is as fine a person as you'd ever meet. He always gives me a lot of credit for my role in his early sobriety. Our divorce had more to do with my own wants than any deficit on his end.

So I think that's an awfully broad statement. I don't doubt that it reflects your own experience, but it hasn't been my own observation.
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:25 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bucyn View Post
Umm....maybe because the alkies beg and promise, cry and scream, threaten and beg some more that their enablers give them another chance, that their enablers believe them this time, that THIS time it will be different, that they love us and need their enablers...

In short Alkies spend a lot of time begging, crying, controlling, yelling and manipulating their enablers. And for a while it works. And sometimes Alkies have so effed up the lives of their partners, that the partners are trapped fiancially or otherwise.

Do alkies really not see a connection between their behavior and the reason their spouses stay? If they don't, why do they do it? Any alkie who scratches his head and wonders why their partner stays is LYING!!!!!! This is just another alkie game, where they are not responsible for their part in a bad relationship. (and I'm not excusing myself. I did not stay, after he shoved me, I didn't even want to talk to him; and my alkie did not want me; he wanted his mommy, so we skipped this dynamic).
Every personal experience and observation, as well as research and studies, show time after time that there is an undeniable mutuality in the alcoholic-codependent relationship. Both are addicts and both suffer a form of insanity, a prime characteristic of which is denial of any responsibility for their part in the dynamic.

In my own relationship, my floridly codependent wife did all the yelling, screaming, pleading, punishing, etc. Yet, when I got sober, she could not put aside her martyr/momma role. I was the designated problem, and that was that! I struggled for several years in the relationship with her needing me to be that alcoholic bad-boy to justify her own anger and insecurity, not to mention her addiction to crisis. She refused to try alanon, since SHE didn't have any problem except ME. After 18 years of marriage I finally gave up and left her. I haven't had a drink since. Untreated codependents are, in my experience, every bit as crazy, angry, scared and mean as untreated alcoholics... and they tend to enjoy wallowing in the sympathy of "oh, that poor woman, how does she put up with him?" Easy....she's a crisis junkie. No mystery there.

blessings
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:27 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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Every personal experience and observation, as well as research and studies, show time after time that there is an undeniable mutuality in the alcoholic-codependent relationship. Both are addicts and both suffer a form of insanity, a prime characteristic of which is denial of any responsibility for their part in the dynamic.
Let's be clear -

I am married to a recovering alcoholic -that in NO WAY makes me an addict or insane. Naive - yes, stupid - maybe so.

Be careful about saying "EVERY"

Maybe she was "drama queen" but you sound bitter and resentful. IMO
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:04 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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It's not always easy for recovering people either. For every family where the "normal" person is begging the alcoholic to get help, there's one where the "normal" person in the family is in total denial about the problem. In my situation, I come to SR to get support because my husband has absolutely no understanding of what I am going through and thinks I am being ridiculous by trying to stay sober. He would like me to start drinking again "moderately." He doesn't seem to remember how that never worked for me. I am much more aware than he is of what my drinking is doing to our marriage. So if you don't see me posting about the harm I'm causing him... well that's why.
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:19 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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When the anger subsides, and thank God it does, it becomes clear that folks who suffer from addictions of any kind are not worthless people; they are sick people in need of help.

I don't like the word worthless. When I use it, it means that I believe someone is worth less than me. Every person deserves love, compassion, and respect; especially those who don't love and care for themselves.

It's important not to confuse compassion with codependency. I can have compassion and respect for others from afar, without compromising my self, my self respect, peace, and serenity.

Watching someone you love struggle to live with and then succumb to addiction is an eye opening experience.
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:22 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Hi Bucyn

You sound soo P.O. and you are right - Alcoholics can lie and manipulate and cause so must pain.

All kinds of addictions can do that - but the people underneath the addiction can be good. Good meaning kind, decent... "normal"

It's common sense - there are decent people and then their are people who are just rotten. Whether they are A's or "crazy control freak codies"

Do alkies really not see a connection between their behavior and the reason their spouses stay?
Some do.

When this post was originally started, I was so ticked off because the selfishness of the posts from the "other side".

(One posts said he wants a girlfriend but...

I was like "NOOOOOOO!" DON'T DO IT!!!!

But with the help of the people here and really seeing my own RAH. I learned there are different stages of recovery.

If they choose to truly recover, no BS, go to meetings, work the program, help other...

It takes time, but they can find the good person underneath the alcohol. (IF it exists)
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:47 PM
  # 56 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ChrrisT View Post
Let's be clear -

I am married to a recovering alcoholic -that in NO WAY makes me an addict or insane. Naive - yes, stupid - maybe so.

Be careful about saying "EVERY"

Maybe she was "drama queen" but you sound bitter and resentful. IMO
Exactly.

I didn't enable mine, nor did I yell/scream/cry. I didn't buy him booze, and I didn't get him pills. Was I an idiot for staying as long as I did? Definitely.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:13 PM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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I was not an idiot for staying. I was doing the best I could do at the time. I've learned a lot in the last six years and I'm living a healthier, more peaceful, and productive life as a result. One thing I've learned about kindness is that it begins at home. I've learned to be good to myself and treat myself with the same kindness and respect I try to show others. Name calling is a self-limiting and self-destructive behavior and I've made a concerted effort to stop berating myself.
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Old 08-05-2010, 04:10 AM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Still Waters View Post
Exactly.

I didn't enable mine, nor did I yell/scream/cry. I didn't buy him booze, and I didn't get him pills. Was I an idiot for staying as long as I did? Definitely.
Absolutely not! No more than an addict is an "idiot" for succumbing to the addiction. My POV on codies as addicts is not a judgment of worth or goodness, but simply that this illness has many different faces...but it is still sickness, not badness. Unfortunately, it is all too common for the hyperresponsible, rescuing, crisis-craving codependent to be absolved from any responsibility, and to "blame" the addict for the entire sick dynamic. I think it is far easier for the addict to break through the denial of his/her addiction than it is for the codependent, who is usually encouraged by "social values" in such behavior. And I'm not remotely writing about enabling...that IMO is a whole different discussion.

As for insanity: sanatos (greek) meaning "healthy or whole," behavior that impairs our physical, emotional and spiritual integrity is, indeed insane IMO. Would not the willingness to remain in an abusive relationship qualify? Don't many codependents fall into the commonly expressed defintion of insanity..."doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?" And isn't "love" used as an excuse, when the truth is really dependency?

These are my observations, not judgments. Personally, I think that the pain and misery that codependent experience in relationship to addicts is probably worse than what the addicts experience with their drugs. And until the "problem" is identified, there is no blame. But once one is able to hear the message of recovery...whether in codependency or other addictions, IMO one becomes responsible to strive to live in the solution. I'm not so convinced that "relapse is part of recovery."

I think that the addict-codependent relationship is mutually abusive and insane.

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Old 08-05-2010, 07:45 AM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Would not the willingness to remain in an abusive relationship qualify?
would people who remain in an abusive relationship with a non-addict qualify as insane?

I think that the addict-codependent relationship is mutually abusive and insane.
can be. I think if we can accept that not alcoholics are abusive, we can accept that not all who remain within their sphere of influence are either.

Children of alcoholics exhibit codependent behaviours. Are they in a mutually abusive relationship? there's a power differential there that would seem to deny the mutuality of the abuse. Do other situations with power differentials decrease the choices of those participating in the relationship?
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:05 AM
  # 60 (permalink)  
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From zbear23: I think that the addict-codependent relationship is mutually abusive and insane.

I would probably qualify that statement to specify that untreated/unrecovering addicts/codeps are probably in mutually abusive relationships. I am an alcoholic, sober many years, and there was a time that I didn't have much to offer besides my alcoholic, very unhealthy self. There was no "me" in a relationship....just my sick parts. And of course, we all know that two sickies don't make a wellie. I'm not sure how I could have expected to attract a "healthy" person during my drinking days. I understand now that I was fair game for the emotionally unavailable, for the abusive and dishonest men who recognized that I didn't think enough of myself to protest the abuse.
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