Codependency or being human?
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Codependency or being human?
Last week stbxah called about the kids-supposedly. At the end of the conversation he told me he found a lump in his mouth and when he went to get his teeth cleaned they sent him to an oral surgeon-who was concerned, said it looked like it could be cancer and took a fairly hefty chunk out of stbxah's gum for biopsy. Result of biopsy will be in on Friday. I know there is nothing I can do to change the results and no reason to grind on it until there is a determination if it is cancer.
stbxah came the closest he ever has to admitting he is an alcoholic. He told me the place where they found the lump is exactly where he holds the vodka in his mouth for awhile before he swallows it. I did not point out to him he also has smoked dope almost daily for 30+ years. He told me his days of drinking vodka are over. If it is cancer that might be true. If it is not, he will go back to his old ways. He did this with his dope when he did a **** test and had to be retested. Threw everything away--then 2 weeks later it was back.
Anyway, I had offered stbxah the option of a legal separation when we first split and he told me to take my f'ing insurance and f*** off. So I said fine and filed for divorce.
IF stbxah does indeed have cancer he will require treatment and our final divorce hearing will be in the next month or two. What has gone through my mind is--would it be codependent (IF he does have cancer) to offer the legal separation again so he will have health insurace. Once the divorce is final he will have COBRA for 1 1/2 years-which he will have to pay for (and it is not cheap). I don't feel codependent when I think of this--I think, I am not sure, if I could, deny health insurance to my worst enemy if they were diagnosed with cancer. I don't feel that red flag or clenching in my gut when I think about this. But I am not exactly years into recovery-only months. I do know I certainly would not invite him to live with us during treatment nor would I want to be the person responsible for taking care of him. I don't know if that sounds cold--but that does not feel like it is part of who I am anymore. I am not his caretaker-in any way.
A friend put it to me this way--what if you guys were already divorced and this happened--would you remarry him? The answer is no I would not.
I am thinking about this before Friday because if he does have cancer they will want to start treatment fairly soon I would assume. If he does not, no need to worry. If so, I need to find out from my lawyer what the ramifications of a legal separation would be opposed to a divorce. I do not want to put me or the kids in the financial mess he has created for himself in the last 10 months. I won't put the offer out on the table if there are problems legally.
Part of me says--he is the one who drank and smoked dope all his life which may have led to this--he can deal with it. Part of me says, he is the father of my kids--I cannot let him go without insurance if he needs it.
Coming here helps me sort out what is jumbled up in my thoughts.
stbxah came the closest he ever has to admitting he is an alcoholic. He told me the place where they found the lump is exactly where he holds the vodka in his mouth for awhile before he swallows it. I did not point out to him he also has smoked dope almost daily for 30+ years. He told me his days of drinking vodka are over. If it is cancer that might be true. If it is not, he will go back to his old ways. He did this with his dope when he did a **** test and had to be retested. Threw everything away--then 2 weeks later it was back.
Anyway, I had offered stbxah the option of a legal separation when we first split and he told me to take my f'ing insurance and f*** off. So I said fine and filed for divorce.
IF stbxah does indeed have cancer he will require treatment and our final divorce hearing will be in the next month or two. What has gone through my mind is--would it be codependent (IF he does have cancer) to offer the legal separation again so he will have health insurace. Once the divorce is final he will have COBRA for 1 1/2 years-which he will have to pay for (and it is not cheap). I don't feel codependent when I think of this--I think, I am not sure, if I could, deny health insurance to my worst enemy if they were diagnosed with cancer. I don't feel that red flag or clenching in my gut when I think about this. But I am not exactly years into recovery-only months. I do know I certainly would not invite him to live with us during treatment nor would I want to be the person responsible for taking care of him. I don't know if that sounds cold--but that does not feel like it is part of who I am anymore. I am not his caretaker-in any way.
A friend put it to me this way--what if you guys were already divorced and this happened--would you remarry him? The answer is no I would not.
I am thinking about this before Friday because if he does have cancer they will want to start treatment fairly soon I would assume. If he does not, no need to worry. If so, I need to find out from my lawyer what the ramifications of a legal separation would be opposed to a divorce. I do not want to put me or the kids in the financial mess he has created for himself in the last 10 months. I won't put the offer out on the table if there are problems legally.
Part of me says--he is the one who drank and smoked dope all his life which may have led to this--he can deal with it. Part of me says, he is the father of my kids--I cannot let him go without insurance if he needs it.
Coming here helps me sort out what is jumbled up in my thoughts.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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As hard as it is, try to let it go until Friday. You don't know how it will turn out, and right now you are twisting yourself up in knots about 'what if.' You won't know what it is until Friday, and then you will have a month or two before the divorce hearing to decide what you want to do.
My advice is to take a walk and some deep breaths and let it go.
L
My advice is to take a walk and some deep breaths and let it go.
L
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: My House
Posts: 1,122
That's a tough one...
My first thought was, and I know this sounds horrible, but how do you even know he's telling you the truth? No offense, but addicts/ alcoholics have such a tendancy to lie to anyone that will listen.
My gut still says that breaking as many ties with him as possible is best. If he is using your insurance, how likely are you to want to get sucked in to his treatment, which may get you sucked back in to his other habits?
I would tread cautiously...
My first thought was, and I know this sounds horrible, but how do you even know he's telling you the truth? No offense, but addicts/ alcoholics have such a tendancy to lie to anyone that will listen.
My gut still says that breaking as many ties with him as possible is best. If he is using your insurance, how likely are you to want to get sucked in to his treatment, which may get you sucked back in to his other habits?
I would tread cautiously...
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
If he stays on your insurance, does that mean you'll end up putting off the divorce????
When we ask, are we being codependent or human, I think it's important to consider...if I act, am I somehow letting the A escape from his consequences? Am I doing something that is negatively affecting MY ability to be healthy and well? Will my actions hinder my own recovery? Are they in my own best interest?
Is it in YOUR best interest to keep providing him insurance??
When we ask, are we being codependent or human, I think it's important to consider...if I act, am I somehow letting the A escape from his consequences? Am I doing something that is negatively affecting MY ability to be healthy and well? Will my actions hinder my own recovery? Are they in my own best interest?
Is it in YOUR best interest to keep providing him insurance??
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Queensland
Posts: 34
I agree with Sandrawg, You are on a rollercoaster, not knowing where the start or finish line is. The best you can do for yourself is to find out if your health insurance will cover him if you are separated. If it does not then proceed to file for your divorce as you planned. Also the medical safety net may cover his health costs if he is in dire financial straits. Check this out also. (I am not sure what country you are in) I know you have an anxious wait until you get the diagnosis. I work as a nurse in cancer care and see a lot of divorced, single lonely men being treated for head and neck cancer. More single/divorced than partnered. They range in age from 40 to 70, and almost always their diagnosis is associated with years of heavy drinking combined with smoking. Mostly their partners have had to give up on them before their cancer diagnosis due to difficulties their lifestyle has caused the family. Hopefully this is a wakeup call for him and that he does not have cancer. That would be better for everyone. Take Care, Thinking of you.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Ask a couple of questions:
1. Do you live in a state where he can get insurance through a state pool?? If you go online you should be able to see that and what the rate would be.
2. If you do leave him on, how long is this going to tie you to him?? As it is now, he can at least obtain Cobra. At some point that will not be avaliable to him anymore. If you let him be on your insurance is this something you can do w/out lots of contact w/him and can you do it w/out using it as a "reason" to stay in his life or vice versa. Also, if he continues to use, which may only get worse if he does have a positive result, you would not be able to become sick of him and his actions and kick him off your policy out of the blue later on.
I am not saying either way as this is a huge decision. I agree with wait and lets see. I do see lots of people on this forum say how the addicts in their lives make things a bit worse off to stay tied with the codie. Again, not that this is your situation, but you may be worrying about something that will not even happen.
Whatever your decision and the outcome, good luck to you. Remember, throughout all of this you still have to focus on you and getting through YOUR recovery. Let God do the rest.
God Bless!
1. Do you live in a state where he can get insurance through a state pool?? If you go online you should be able to see that and what the rate would be.
2. If you do leave him on, how long is this going to tie you to him?? As it is now, he can at least obtain Cobra. At some point that will not be avaliable to him anymore. If you let him be on your insurance is this something you can do w/out lots of contact w/him and can you do it w/out using it as a "reason" to stay in his life or vice versa. Also, if he continues to use, which may only get worse if he does have a positive result, you would not be able to become sick of him and his actions and kick him off your policy out of the blue later on.
I am not saying either way as this is a huge decision. I agree with wait and lets see. I do see lots of people on this forum say how the addicts in their lives make things a bit worse off to stay tied with the codie. Again, not that this is your situation, but you may be worrying about something that will not even happen.
Whatever your decision and the outcome, good luck to you. Remember, throughout all of this you still have to focus on you and getting through YOUR recovery. Let God do the rest.
God Bless!
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 26
I too would like to see some of the responses to the question of human compassion vs. Codependency. I feel that I am a naturally compassionate, empathetic person and that can tend to get me into some trouble. I am curious to see where people view the line between the two.
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
This is a really good article about codependency vs. caring:
Ann's Articles - Codependence vs. Caring
Like I tried to suggest above, if you are providing "compassion" at the expense of your own health and wellbeing, or if you are further enabling the alcoholic to stay in his disease because of your "caring" behavior, I consider that to be codependency.
Ann's Articles - Codependence vs. Caring
Like I tried to suggest above, if you are providing "compassion" at the expense of your own health and wellbeing, or if you are further enabling the alcoholic to stay in his disease because of your "caring" behavior, I consider that to be codependency.
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 26
I liked that article! After reading it, I feel more confident that I do what I do for others out of genuine love and care. There is a small part of me that feels that I could exhibit codependent tendencies, because in relationships I will usually bend over backwards for my partner...even at my own expense. Now I need to look back on my relationship with my ex-agf to see if my behaviors might have contributed to her relapse. I'm going to preemptively say no, because ultimately she made the decision to eliminate me from her life and thus have no one to make her feel accountable for her drinking. For my own satisfaction and curiosity though, I'm gonna analyze my behaviors and see where improvement can/could be made.
ps - sorry for kinda hijacking this thread.
ps - sorry for kinda hijacking this thread.
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,542
I see your point and my first reaction is to do the noble thing and cover him on your policy for a while longer. The problem is if he's on your policy you will be responsible for any uncovered medical expenses. How much you wanna bet you get stuck with some pretty big bills? The timing of this is not your burden to carry.
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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He told me his days of drinking vodka are over. If it is cancer that might be true. If it is not, he will go back to his old ways. He did this with his dope when he did a **** test and had to be retested. Threw everything away--then 2 weeks later it was back.
I would not keep him on my policy.
I would not keep him on my policy.
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
Me either. It's like keeping a ticking time bomb on there. It's just a matter of time before he develops tons of health issues from his drinking and doping.
Originally Posted by suki44883 
He told me his days of drinking vodka are over. If it is cancer that might be true. If it is not, he will go back to his old ways. He did this with his dope when he did a **** test and had to be retested. Threw everything away--then 2 weeks later it was back.
I would not keep him on my policy.
I would not keep him on my policy.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
Originally Posted by ladyamalthea
That's a tough one...
My first thought was, and I know this sounds horrible, but how do you even know he's telling you the truth? No offense, but addicts/ alcoholics have such a tendancy to lie to anyone that will listen.
My gut still says that breaking as many ties with him as possible is best. If he is using your insurance, how likely are you to want to get sucked in to his treatment, which may get you sucked back in to his other habits?
I would tread cautiously...
My first thought was, and I know this sounds horrible, but how do you even know he's telling you the truth? No offense, but addicts/ alcoholics have such a tendancy to lie to anyone that will listen.
My gut still says that breaking as many ties with him as possible is best. If he is using your insurance, how likely are you to want to get sucked in to his treatment, which may get you sucked back in to his other habits?
I would tread cautiously...
My STBXAH told me just after I left him that he had testicular cancer, that he was getting treated and would never be able to have more kids. I felt like a complete b--ch for leaving him when he was "sooo sick." He told me about a year later that he was going in for more tests because the doctors found a lump near his shoulder that they're worried about, played the cancer word again.
Never once did I see any claims come over my insurance for anything related to STBXAH, even though I had not removed him from my policy for the express purpose that he'd have coverage and could seek help when needed. STBXAH always said he never used our insurance through my work because he didn't want the bills to come back to me or for me to worry. (Ummm, then why tell me?)
I found out recently (from a family member - STBXAH has not yet admitted it) that yes there had been a lump, but wasn't cancer - it was removed, no chemo or other treatment required. Apparently his shoulder was an old rugby injury - again NOT cancer.
I'm not saying that your situation is the same, and I do not want to belittle your scare. Cancer is a devastating disease to deal with; within my family we lost 3 dear aunts to 2 different types of cancer. But I really wanted to share with you that with at least one alcoholic, his cry of cancer was truly a huge round of manipulation and possibly alcohol-induced delusions. I would second that you seek legal advice related to what your liability might be for any of his medical costs. You don't have to act on anything now. Just get the information you need to make an informed decision.
I hope you get good news on Friday with the biopsy result.
Hang in there.
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wild West, USA
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I find that the difference between enmeshment and caring has more to do with how I feel about what I'm doing, than what I'm actually doing. As long as I don't put any strings on things I give, I do okay, I am able to objectively consider the wisdom of giving vs. not giving, and I don't suffer disappointment.
For example, after his car died, I gave my then-separated husband my old car so he could get to work and keep his food service job. I didn't expect anything in return. He's always been willing to work at his career-- he's with the same company, and has advanced several ranks into a professional position. I didn't get sucked into helping him beyond the car. He helped himself.
I'd wait and see, but research your policy if it becomes necessary to decide. If you do keep him on your policy, don't beat yourself up about it. There is not always a right or wrong answer about what to do in life.
For example, after his car died, I gave my then-separated husband my old car so he could get to work and keep his food service job. I didn't expect anything in return. He's always been willing to work at his career-- he's with the same company, and has advanced several ranks into a professional position. I didn't get sucked into helping him beyond the car. He helped himself.
I'd wait and see, but research your policy if it becomes necessary to decide. If you do keep him on your policy, don't beat yourself up about it. There is not always a right or wrong answer about what to do in life.
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LTD-I sort of had a forced walk to take my brain away from it for a bit. I know there is nothing I can or will decide before Friday. For me it was more a question of is this a codependency thing.
lady-he has lied about other things and I had a sense that it was a lie. I could tell when I talked to him that they had taken a major piece of his gum and he also sounded scared. He never sounded scared when he was manipulating. So in this case I don't think it's smoke and mirrors. I think this is real--whether it is cancer or not--Friday will tell.
sandrawg-in a sense the divorce would be put off temporarily-it would be replaced with a legal separation-which in my state is the same as a divorce--the settlement is the same, we are both responsiblie for our own debt, custody and placement are the same. It is out there for people who may reconcile but want to start the divorce process (something I should have considered myself but I doubt stbxah would have said yes-because both parties have to agree to a legal separation). I am not thinking about reconciliation-only the logistics of providing health care if needed. In my state it is no fault so only one party has to agree to the divorce.
I would not be part of the treatment process. I don't want to be and would not get sucked into that. A friend asked if I would let him move into my house if he needed treatment and I said no and I meant it. I am happy to be out of his crazy world. He has people who can assist him if he needs it. I would only be carrying him on my insurance--which would cost me no more than it is costing me now since I have kids and the family plan is the same cost be it a couple with no kids or a couple with 12 kids. In my state legal separation allows one party to carry the other party on their health insurance policy-divorce does not allow this. There are few medical safety nets for those without health insurance. In fact a friend came over last week to get some things to auction because a mutual friend of ours-her son was diagnosed with lymphoma and he has no health insurance so they are doing fundraisers to help pay medical bills.
lady-he has lied about other things and I had a sense that it was a lie. I could tell when I talked to him that they had taken a major piece of his gum and he also sounded scared. He never sounded scared when he was manipulating. So in this case I don't think it's smoke and mirrors. I think this is real--whether it is cancer or not--Friday will tell.
sandrawg-in a sense the divorce would be put off temporarily-it would be replaced with a legal separation-which in my state is the same as a divorce--the settlement is the same, we are both responsiblie for our own debt, custody and placement are the same. It is out there for people who may reconcile but want to start the divorce process (something I should have considered myself but I doubt stbxah would have said yes-because both parties have to agree to a legal separation). I am not thinking about reconciliation-only the logistics of providing health care if needed. In my state it is no fault so only one party has to agree to the divorce.
I would not be part of the treatment process. I don't want to be and would not get sucked into that. A friend asked if I would let him move into my house if he needed treatment and I said no and I meant it. I am happy to be out of his crazy world. He has people who can assist him if he needs it. I would only be carrying him on my insurance--which would cost me no more than it is costing me now since I have kids and the family plan is the same cost be it a couple with no kids or a couple with 12 kids. In my state legal separation allows one party to carry the other party on their health insurance policy-divorce does not allow this. There are few medical safety nets for those without health insurance. In fact a friend came over last week to get some things to auction because a mutual friend of ours-her son was diagnosed with lymphoma and he has no health insurance so they are doing fundraisers to help pay medical bills.
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hopeful there is state health insurance--you have to be at poverty level to qualify.
Once legal separation papers are signed it is set for one year. After that one year either party may file a paper to turn it from legal separation to divorce. I would not switch to legal separation at the cost of my own sanity. He has been on my health insurance since I left him and I have no idea who he sees medically. The medical records are his, not mine. I do not file insurance papers and any co-pays are addressed to him. Some have been forwarded to me by mistake and I do not open them--they are his. I just hand them to him when he picks up the kids. It would be his responsibility to make any co-pays.
sand--I am not sure anything in that article describes me. Would I provide stbxah health insurance because I feel less if I don't-no. Would I feel guilty if I did not-well I guess if he died because he could not get care due to lack of health insurance I would feel guilty but sort of in the same way I would feel guilty if I did not act and as a result any human being (or critter for that matter) would be harmed. Would providing him health insurance provide me with a sense of joy-no to that to. It would simply be a matter of decency-in the same way I would provide health insurance to my friends' son who has been diagnosed with lymphoma if I could. If that makes sense. But I am of the mind that everyone should have health insurance-perhaps that is why this is a bit of a confusing issue for me.
Jazz, suki, sand--the unpaid medical expenses is where the lawyer would need to provide me with info because that is not a time bomb I want or need. Also, the other thing mentioned is at what point do you say whoa. He is not a spring chicken anymore and I don't want to carry him on my health insurance forever.
Lots to think about-after Friday. Thanks everyone. There are things I definitely had not thought of.
Once legal separation papers are signed it is set for one year. After that one year either party may file a paper to turn it from legal separation to divorce. I would not switch to legal separation at the cost of my own sanity. He has been on my health insurance since I left him and I have no idea who he sees medically. The medical records are his, not mine. I do not file insurance papers and any co-pays are addressed to him. Some have been forwarded to me by mistake and I do not open them--they are his. I just hand them to him when he picks up the kids. It would be his responsibility to make any co-pays.
sand--I am not sure anything in that article describes me. Would I provide stbxah health insurance because I feel less if I don't-no. Would I feel guilty if I did not-well I guess if he died because he could not get care due to lack of health insurance I would feel guilty but sort of in the same way I would feel guilty if I did not act and as a result any human being (or critter for that matter) would be harmed. Would providing him health insurance provide me with a sense of joy-no to that to. It would simply be a matter of decency-in the same way I would provide health insurance to my friends' son who has been diagnosed with lymphoma if I could. If that makes sense. But I am of the mind that everyone should have health insurance-perhaps that is why this is a bit of a confusing issue for me.
Jazz, suki, sand--the unpaid medical expenses is where the lawyer would need to provide me with info because that is not a time bomb I want or need. Also, the other thing mentioned is at what point do you say whoa. He is not a spring chicken anymore and I don't want to carry him on my health insurance forever.
Lots to think about-after Friday. Thanks everyone. There are things I definitely had not thought of.
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Come Friday you will be told either it is or it is not cancer....it is then up to you whether you need proof if he says it is.
Till you know for sure, all is just imagining and causing stress, so let it go for now.
If it were me, I would wait and see, but I doubt I would be sacrificing more of my life to help a man who did not help himself in the past, put me well behind his drinking needs and made me miserable enough to file for a divorce.
Take a break from worrying about it right now, Friday will get here soon enough.
God bless
Till you know for sure, all is just imagining and causing stress, so let it go for now.
If it were me, I would wait and see, but I doubt I would be sacrificing more of my life to help a man who did not help himself in the past, put me well behind his drinking needs and made me miserable enough to file for a divorce.
Take a break from worrying about it right now, Friday will get here soon enough.
God bless
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