What is your A Jekyll/Hyde like?
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What is your A Jekyll/Hyde like?
So, I have read it is common for alcoholics to be a Jekyll/Hyde type.
This story represents a concept in Western culture, that of the inner conflict of humanity's sense of good and evil.[6] The novella has been interpreted as an examination of the duality of human nature (that good and evil exists in all) and that the failure to accept this tension (to accept the evil or shadow side) results in the evil being projected onto others.[7] Paradoxically in this argument, evil is actually committed in an effort to extinguish the perceived evil that has been projected onto the innocent victims. In Freudian Theory the thoughts and desires banished to the unconscious mind motivate the behaviour of the conscious mind. If someone banishes all evil to the unconscious mind in an attempt to be wholly and completely good, it can result in the development of a Mr Hyde-type aspect to that person's character.[7] This failure to accept the tension of duality is related to Christian theology where Satan's fall from Heaven is due to his refusal to accept that he is a created being (that he has a dual nature) and is not God.[7] This is why in Christianity pride (to consider oneself as without sin or without evil) is the greatest sin as it is the precursor to evil itself, it also explains the Christian concept of evil hiding in the light.[7]
(this is interesting, too, given we are talking about drinkers...)After drinking a potion of his own creation, Jekyll is transformed into the smaller, younger, cruel, remorseless, evil Edward Hyde, representing the hidden side of Dr Jekyll's nature brought to the fore. Dr Jekyll has many friends and has a friendly personality, but as Mr Hyde, he becomes mysterious, violent, and secretive. As time goes by, Mr Hyde grows in power. After taking the potion repetitively, he no longer relies upon it to unleash his inner demon. Eventually, Mr Hyde grows so strong that Dr Jekyll becomes reliant on the potion to remain himself.
Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What is it like for you/your A?
What sets off the switch?
What are the sides like?
How fast does s/he switch?
How often?
What do you do? Do you try to keep Jekyll around? How?
Do/did you tell yourself Jekyll was "real"? Do/did you try to fix/stop Hyde?
Do you deny Hyde when that side is not around?
Do you think we found these dual-nature types because of our own "banishing of thoughts and desires to the unconcious mind" - meaning our internal reality is showing up in our external world?
This story represents a concept in Western culture, that of the inner conflict of humanity's sense of good and evil.[6] The novella has been interpreted as an examination of the duality of human nature (that good and evil exists in all) and that the failure to accept this tension (to accept the evil or shadow side) results in the evil being projected onto others.[7] Paradoxically in this argument, evil is actually committed in an effort to extinguish the perceived evil that has been projected onto the innocent victims. In Freudian Theory the thoughts and desires banished to the unconscious mind motivate the behaviour of the conscious mind. If someone banishes all evil to the unconscious mind in an attempt to be wholly and completely good, it can result in the development of a Mr Hyde-type aspect to that person's character.[7] This failure to accept the tension of duality is related to Christian theology where Satan's fall from Heaven is due to his refusal to accept that he is a created being (that he has a dual nature) and is not God.[7] This is why in Christianity pride (to consider oneself as without sin or without evil) is the greatest sin as it is the precursor to evil itself, it also explains the Christian concept of evil hiding in the light.[7]
(this is interesting, too, given we are talking about drinkers...)After drinking a potion of his own creation, Jekyll is transformed into the smaller, younger, cruel, remorseless, evil Edward Hyde, representing the hidden side of Dr Jekyll's nature brought to the fore. Dr Jekyll has many friends and has a friendly personality, but as Mr Hyde, he becomes mysterious, violent, and secretive. As time goes by, Mr Hyde grows in power. After taking the potion repetitively, he no longer relies upon it to unleash his inner demon. Eventually, Mr Hyde grows so strong that Dr Jekyll becomes reliant on the potion to remain himself.
Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What is it like for you/your A?
What sets off the switch?
What are the sides like?
How fast does s/he switch?
How often?
What do you do? Do you try to keep Jekyll around? How?
Do/did you tell yourself Jekyll was "real"? Do/did you try to fix/stop Hyde?
Do you deny Hyde when that side is not around?
Do you think we found these dual-nature types because of our own "banishing of thoughts and desires to the unconcious mind" - meaning our internal reality is showing up in our external world?
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Honestly, once I accepted my xabf was both good and evil, but the evil side would take my whole life if I allowed it, I left for good. I want to be with one person who does not have a manipulative, selfish, uncaring and cruel side.
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In my case, the Jekyll/Hyde thing didn't really help me to figure anything out. I mean it sort of perpetuated the myth in my mind that there were 'two' of him and somehow I could make 'one' of them go away.
What helped me was to get brutally honest with myself. To acknowledge that he had some appealing traits, and some unacceptable traits. Then I had to stop putting more weight on the good stuff while minimizing the bad stuff. I had to take it all at face value and give up the idea that I could change it, or that he would somehow 'wake up' and change it.
Alcoholics are not mythical creatures, they are human beings with a big problem. And they are the only ones capable of solving it.
L
What helped me was to get brutally honest with myself. To acknowledge that he had some appealing traits, and some unacceptable traits. Then I had to stop putting more weight on the good stuff while minimizing the bad stuff. I had to take it all at face value and give up the idea that I could change it, or that he would somehow 'wake up' and change it.
Alcoholics are not mythical creatures, they are human beings with a big problem. And they are the only ones capable of solving it.
L
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My xah isn't really a Jekyll/Hyde person.
He's fairly easy to get along with as long as I go along without causing any upset. I start rocking the boat and he says ugly things but really - many people say ugly things when they feel threatened and panicky. It did drive home that he is super emotionally manipulative/abusive, and is so on purpose. He always has been (I see this now, but not then) it was just so subtle because he never needed the big guns before. I did not cause a ruckus. Ever.
When I let go of the fantasy of what he could be 'if only...' then acceptance came relatively easily. Acceptance for who he was/is and then it all fit. He is one person and all of the parts of him fit nicely if I look at the *real* thing and kick out my fantasies of what he would be like 'if only'.
Not that some people don't display that Jekyll/Hyde behavior. I think some people do and if they have any violent/aggressive tendencies I imagine it is extremely frightening.
He's fairly easy to get along with as long as I go along without causing any upset. I start rocking the boat and he says ugly things but really - many people say ugly things when they feel threatened and panicky. It did drive home that he is super emotionally manipulative/abusive, and is so on purpose. He always has been (I see this now, but not then) it was just so subtle because he never needed the big guns before. I did not cause a ruckus. Ever.
When I let go of the fantasy of what he could be 'if only...' then acceptance came relatively easily. Acceptance for who he was/is and then it all fit. He is one person and all of the parts of him fit nicely if I look at the *real* thing and kick out my fantasies of what he would be like 'if only'.
Not that some people don't display that Jekyll/Hyde behavior. I think some people do and if they have any violent/aggressive tendencies I imagine it is extremely frightening.
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Mine is all Hyde 24/7. Sorry to say that, but when the foundation of one's life is built completely on lies, machinations and the manipulation of loved ones, I find it hard to see the Dr. Jekyl. Every thought, whim and action with mine was to screw everyone over. Her family, her loved ones, her friends. It was and still is all an act. There is a very sweet side that rarely comes out genuinely, usually it is a means to win people over and bring their guard down. If I had stayed, she would have skinned me alive.
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I found that different analogy worked much better for me.
My STBXAH thankfully didn't manifest as much of the mean vindictiveness that some of you deal with. He mostly just didn't do anything at all, and the old him morphed into this new, utterly apathetic, ahedonic creature. He wasn't inherently evil, although the drink definitely commanded him. And really, he was doing what he felt he needed to do to survive with this new master. Initially we felt he was self medicating, trying to cope with an anxiety disorder, but it took on a life of its own.
A far better analogy is that the man I loved was betrayed and murdered by the dark side. My good, kind Anakin crossed over to the dark side and was consumed by it, transforming into Vader. I felt the good in him for many years, and I knew it was there. And I still think it is there, but there is one big change in thinking: Ultimately, he can only redeem himself... (at the end of the saga, of course.)
“Fear is the path to the dark side.
Fear leads to anger.
Anger leads to hate.
Hate leads to suffering..."
One of my favorite quotes from the sage Yoda. I think it fits STBXAH quite well.
My STBXAH thankfully didn't manifest as much of the mean vindictiveness that some of you deal with. He mostly just didn't do anything at all, and the old him morphed into this new, utterly apathetic, ahedonic creature. He wasn't inherently evil, although the drink definitely commanded him. And really, he was doing what he felt he needed to do to survive with this new master. Initially we felt he was self medicating, trying to cope with an anxiety disorder, but it took on a life of its own.
A far better analogy is that the man I loved was betrayed and murdered by the dark side. My good, kind Anakin crossed over to the dark side and was consumed by it, transforming into Vader. I felt the good in him for many years, and I knew it was there. And I still think it is there, but there is one big change in thinking: Ultimately, he can only redeem himself... (at the end of the saga, of course.)
“Fear is the path to the dark side.
Fear leads to anger.
Anger leads to hate.
Hate leads to suffering..."
One of my favorite quotes from the sage Yoda. I think it fits STBXAH quite well.
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Found this interesting as I am reading a book called Shadow Dancing.
Anyway, my husband is definitely two-sided - with or without the alcohol.
He is perfectly supportive and caring and cooperative at work, and withdrawn and demanding at home.
It was actually my first clue that he was drinking alcoholically - he was fine at work (except with me) and starting drinking when he got home and things went downhill from there. In the morning he was always sorry and wanted a fresh start.
Once I identified the problem I confronted him and gave him a choice. I actually put more emphasis on the drinking part of him and really ignored the positive side. I think that was a mistake not to acknowledge his positive points.
Now that we have been apart it is easier for me to see the positive side which allows me to translate into seeing some interactions with him much differently and caring. I wish I had seen that before - but at the same time I mostly try to keep a balanced viewpt.
Anyway, my husband is definitely two-sided - with or without the alcohol.
He is perfectly supportive and caring and cooperative at work, and withdrawn and demanding at home.
It was actually my first clue that he was drinking alcoholically - he was fine at work (except with me) and starting drinking when he got home and things went downhill from there. In the morning he was always sorry and wanted a fresh start.
Once I identified the problem I confronted him and gave him a choice. I actually put more emphasis on the drinking part of him and really ignored the positive side. I think that was a mistake not to acknowledge his positive points.
Now that we have been apart it is easier for me to see the positive side which allows me to translate into seeing some interactions with him much differently and caring. I wish I had seen that before - but at the same time I mostly try to keep a balanced viewpt.
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Originally Posted by littlefish 
I wouldn't try to make it too complicated: "drunk/sober" usually explains the mood swings.
My A can flip on a dime if he is feeling emotionally threatened.
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Hmmm, well I think it is absolutely true that alcoholics can and do have other issues.
At my AA meetings, people introduce themselves in the doubles these days: "I am an alcoholic and a drug user" is the most common. But yesterday at a lunch meeting I heard a woman introduce herself as an alcoholic and bipolar.
But I guess my point is that if you are dealing with the garden variety alcoholic, the mood changes and out of character behavior is triggered by alcohol consumption.
It is perfectly possible that an alcoholic can also have a personality disorder like anyone else, like a split personality.
But, it is classic behavior for most alcoholics to swing from one emotional extreme to the other, both when under the influence and in an active state of inebriation, as well as during periods of withdrawal and abstinence.
At my AA meetings, people introduce themselves in the doubles these days: "I am an alcoholic and a drug user" is the most common. But yesterday at a lunch meeting I heard a woman introduce herself as an alcoholic and bipolar.
But I guess my point is that if you are dealing with the garden variety alcoholic, the mood changes and out of character behavior is triggered by alcohol consumption.
It is perfectly possible that an alcoholic can also have a personality disorder like anyone else, like a split personality.
But, it is classic behavior for most alcoholics to swing from one emotional extreme to the other, both when under the influence and in an active state of inebriation, as well as during periods of withdrawal and abstinence.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 love
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Originally Posted by wifeofadrinker
I don't think that explains it for me.
My A can flip on a dime if he is feeling emotionally threatened.
My A can flip on a dime if he is feeling emotionally threatened.
When i use the analogy of MR. and the Dr. I am speaking of a normal (emotional) behavior vs unhealthy (emotional) behavior.
Why is it so evident in an alcoholic and they can flip on a dime? Becasue alcoholics aren't emotionally healthy people, lacking normal control as to emotional discipline just as they lack normal levels of discipline in choices of drinking. And there thinking... it ain't normal, not balanced. ( If there is one emotionally mature and healthy alcoholic I apologize, it is an exception :-)
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Originally Posted by wifeofadrinker
I don't think that explains it for me.
My A can flip on a dime if he is feeling emotionally threatened.
My A can flip on a dime if he is feeling emotionally threatened.
I am one person, I have a range of behaviours, thoughts and feelings. People will like some of them and not others.
How tempting it is to see another as two different people "the woman I loved is gone" "the good man no longer exists" "this is the disease taking", "jeckyll and Hyde", to draw a fence around the bits I don't like. As LTD said, I can then hope to get rid of this person and keep the one I like. Not only that but I don't have to look at myself and work out what led me to love someone with behaviours that I find intolerable ("he wasn't like this when we married", "I just want the woman I love back")
but if I apply this to myself, am I 2 people? does that make any sense? absolutely not, I am ONE person, and operating on the same set of core beliefs, fears, hopes and experience all the time.
so although it may appear to be a nice neat explanation (Jekyll/Hyde), and one I explored for a while, it didn't help me accept the reality of the situation.
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Originally Posted by MeHandle
Years of alcohol abuse also adds into lack of maturity, lack of a normal emotional growth.( And if this happens coming off a childhood were good emotional behavior was not taught or displayed it can make it all the worse.) So the adult child is emotionally threatened and he flips on a dime, much like the teenage boy with surging hormones.
When i use the analogy of MR. and the Dr. I am speaking of a normal (emotional) behavior vs unhealthy (emotional) behavior.
Why is it so evident in an alcoholic and they can flip on a dime? Becasue alcoholics aren't emotionally healthy people, lacking normal control as to emotional discipline just as they lack normal levels of discipline in choices of drinking. And there thinking... it ain't normal, not balanced. ( If there is one emotionally mature and healthy alcoholic I apologize, it is an exception :-)
When i use the analogy of MR. and the Dr. I am speaking of a normal (emotional) behavior vs unhealthy (emotional) behavior.
Why is it so evident in an alcoholic and they can flip on a dime? Becasue alcoholics aren't emotionally healthy people, lacking normal control as to emotional discipline just as they lack normal levels of discipline in choices of drinking. And there thinking... it ain't normal, not balanced. ( If there is one emotionally mature and healthy alcoholic I apologize, it is an exception :-)
Before I started to understand addictions, for the life of me, I could NOT understand why my boyfriend would react like a child to certain things.
It was baffling. Then I came to learn, addicts are emotionally stunted. Then every one of his actions made sense.
Doesn't make it right, but it helps to understand the flip flop.
Like having a grown man-child without the dirty diapers :-)
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It all goes back to the basic discussion that poses the question: is it the behavior of an emotional stunted, immature, morally weak or lazy person who could straighten up and fly right if they really wanted to, or is it a disease?
Recovered alcoholics number in our units of soldiers serving overseas, are policemen and doctors and nurses who take car of us by making mature and responsible decisions, they fill innumerable roles in society in a mature and responsible way.
You can get lost in the forest by concentrating on the symptoms and not the disease: wanting an alcoholic to "grow up, be nice, become emotionally stable, stop having mood swings", and a myriad of other things, is losing sight of the most important goal and the only one when it is all said and done: them finding a recovery program, using it, getting sober and staying sober.
Recovered alcoholics number in our units of soldiers serving overseas, are policemen and doctors and nurses who take car of us by making mature and responsible decisions, they fill innumerable roles in society in a mature and responsible way.
You can get lost in the forest by concentrating on the symptoms and not the disease: wanting an alcoholic to "grow up, be nice, become emotionally stable, stop having mood swings", and a myriad of other things, is losing sight of the most important goal and the only one when it is all said and done: them finding a recovery program, using it, getting sober and staying sober.
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I always thought we all have a little jeckyl an hyde about us..Good an bad..and were all capable of turning one or the other..Positive emotions..negatve emotions..Bring out the best an worst in all..Some far better at hiding an controlling..what they would like others to see...but the undercurrants of these good/bad emotions are pretty much with us all..like it or not...
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[QUOTE=littlefish;2552123]It all goes back to the basic discussion that poses the question: is it the behavior of an emotional stunted, immature, morally weak or lazy person who could straighten up and fly right if they really wanted to, or is it a disease?
QUOTE]
I have to respectfully disagree on a number of points:
I don't see this as anything to do with the disease concept of alcoholicsm and whether that is right or wrong,
I think this is about how WE view those that we interact with, and how WE define reality.
othes avoid taxes or child support, run red lights, steal, lie, cheat on their spouces etc. "recovered alcoholics" are no less likely than any other group of people to be subject to and exhibit the whole gamut of human positives and frailties.
this may be the number one important thing to an alcoholic, but to those living their own lives near an alcoholic, the "most important goal, and the only one when all is said and done" is living their own sentient and aware life.
The reasons behind behaviour may be of interest to policy makers and academics in general terms and to an individual who is exhibiting behaviour in specific terms. But to those around them, it matters not a bean, as understanding the reasons someone else does something won't change a thing.
let's work it through:
someone shouts abuse at me in response to a benign question, what are the possible reasons?
They are sick/ill/brain damaged/ unable to process feelings in a manner that doesn't lead to their shouting at me because they have never been taught how to/were abused as a child/have had their development stunted by drugs/alcohol/head trauma/ have a borderline personality disorder or some other disorder that means they don't feel compassion/process other's pain/they have misunderstood my motives/misheard the question/they have a brain tumour/have had a ****** day/have been sacked/have a splitting headache/are "morally" weak/weren't taught right from wrong as a child/don't know that shouting abuse at people isn't normal.
no-one chooses to be/or experience any of these, and knowing which of these reasons (or combination thereof lies behind a behaviour) might increase my compassion, but I can't change any of them and stop the behaviour.
I could, instead, view all human beings with a level load of compassion, but at the same time expect them to take responsibility for their behaviour, and if I find their behaviour unnacceptable, get out of the firing line.
QUOTE]
I have to respectfully disagree on a number of points:
I don't see this as anything to do with the disease concept of alcoholicsm and whether that is right or wrong,
I think this is about how WE view those that we interact with, and how WE define reality.
Recovered alcoholics number in our units of soldiers serving overseas, are policemen and doctors and nurses who take car of us by making mature and responsible decisions, they fill innumerable roles in society in a mature and responsible way.
You can get lost in the forest by concentrating on the symptoms and not the disease: wanting an alcoholic to "grow up, be nice, become emotionally stable, stop having mood swings", and a myriad of other things, is losing sight of the most important goal and the only one when it is all said and done: them finding a recovery program, using it, getting sober and staying sober.
The reasons behind behaviour may be of interest to policy makers and academics in general terms and to an individual who is exhibiting behaviour in specific terms. But to those around them, it matters not a bean, as understanding the reasons someone else does something won't change a thing.
let's work it through:
someone shouts abuse at me in response to a benign question, what are the possible reasons?
They are sick/ill/brain damaged/ unable to process feelings in a manner that doesn't lead to their shouting at me because they have never been taught how to/were abused as a child/have had their development stunted by drugs/alcohol/head trauma/ have a borderline personality disorder or some other disorder that means they don't feel compassion/process other's pain/they have misunderstood my motives/misheard the question/they have a brain tumour/have had a ****** day/have been sacked/have a splitting headache/are "morally" weak/weren't taught right from wrong as a child/don't know that shouting abuse at people isn't normal.
no-one chooses to be/or experience any of these, and knowing which of these reasons (or combination thereof lies behind a behaviour) might increase my compassion, but I can't change any of them and stop the behaviour.
I could, instead, view all human beings with a level load of compassion, but at the same time expect them to take responsibility for their behaviour, and if I find their behaviour unnacceptable, get out of the firing line.
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Originally Posted by Summerpeach
great post
Before I started to understand addictions, for the life of me, I could NOT understand why my boyfriend would react like a child to certain things.
It was baffling. Then I came to learn, addicts are emotionally stunted. Then every one of his actions made sense.
Doesn't make it right, but it helps to understand the flip flop.
Like having a grown man-child without the dirty diapers :-)
Before I started to understand addictions, for the life of me, I could NOT understand why my boyfriend would react like a child to certain things.
It was baffling. Then I came to learn, addicts are emotionally stunted. Then every one of his actions made sense.
Doesn't make it right, but it helps to understand the flip flop.
Like having a grown man-child without the dirty diapers :-)
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Originally Posted by littlefish
I wouldn't try to make it too complicated: "drunk/sober" usually explains the mood swings.
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