Ceres

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Ceres

This chapter begins with a history lesson. What stood out there were two things. One, that professionals knew there was something going on with the people involved with addicts/alcoholics for eons. Two, there was, and still is, difficulty defining the word codependency. Melonie defines it this way:

Codependent: A codependent person is one who has let another persons behavior affect him or her, and who is obsessed with controlling that persons behavior.

It didn't take long for professionals to see codependent behavior outside of addicts/alcoholics. Anyone involved with (including children) a chronically ill person or someone with a compulsive disorder (mental illness, gambling) seemingly any highly troubled person. These codependent then would then find themselves involved with these sorts over and over. One common denominator is the unwritten silent rules of these relationships that include, no real discussion of problems, no real expression of emotions, no direct honest communication, no real trust - the list seemed endless.

And all those silent rules have followed me around. In each relationship I've had, I've buried my own mental issues (fear of abandonment for one). Then, I was blind to the issues the one had that I attached myself too. Basically, there was no reality. I was hiding behind a veil of lies that told me I was normal and the object of my affection was normal too. No problem here! When problems did arise, I would feel like a failure. Because I could not understand why the white picket relationship I thought I would get was so elusive.

I found some comfort in this chapter. Particularly when she quoted someone from 60-minutes who basically said that codependent has been around since the B.C. years. I'm feeling kind of lucky in a way. Because I've seen a way out of this prison I've been in. A real cause for hope. It's almost exhilarating. This, while I'm still fighting it! I'm in a place right now where my two sides are completely at odds. But, each day, I can scream a little of it out. Then, take a good look at what I'm doing and have done. And, hey, it's not ALL bad! This chapter also gets into some of the codependent(?) through history whose resolve and determination made some real changes in the world. Historically attacking injustice. Standing up for the underdogs. However, many died thinking they just didn't do enough.

React. That word struck me too. That's what we perpetually do isn't it? We react. Don't know about you, but I react BADLY most of the time. So, I may start catching myself and really asking myself "How do you REALLY think you should react?"

The end of the chapter discusses how some define codependent itself as a disease. Because it is progressive. This struck me. As it's true. If I leave it untreated it will only do more destruction in my life. And, in turn, the lives of my children. This quote from also resonates:

"Whatever problem the other person has, codependent involves a habitual system of thinking, feeling, and behaving toward ourselves and others that can cause us pain. These behaviors prevent us from finding peace and happiness."

Now, the two activities Melonie asks us to do are:

1.) How would you define codependency?
2.) Do you know anyone who has significantly affected your life, somebody whom you worry about and wish you could change? Who? Write several paragraphs about that person and your relationship. Later, read what you wrote. What are your feelings?

#1: I'll stick with Melodies definition. It works for me.

#2: OMG: Tall order. I'll have to throw up a reply. This will be a lot of work. First I'll have to figure out which ONE person to write about. :-D

Ceres

Oh, I'm trying to do a synopsis well enough so that anyone who does not have the book can also comment on the topic.

FindingPeace1

: :

alanonicnov2008

Thanks Alzerin! I liked the vote yesterday, I thought it was funny to add the addendum "and it's all about me." I got ahead of myself with enthusiasm for this book it has been life changing for me already!

I particularly liked this chapter. I have found definitions of codependency rather vague but this one seemed especially good:

"An emotional, psychological, and behavioral condition that develops as a result of an individual's prolonged exposure to, and practice of, a set of oppressive rules -- rules which prevent the open expression of feeling as well as the direct discussion of personal and interpersonal problems."

This is the environment I grew up in. It was a family of ragers. I remember some of my mother's pat answers when I was say that something was bothering me: "life isn't fair", "be the peacemaker", etc. My father, brother and at times my mother were prone to raging, so I learned to make sure I took care of the room, or the other scenario -- I simply hid out in my room until the coast was clear.

In my relationships these defense mechanisms get activated. I have a really hard time seeing the elephant in the room. I will twist myself into a pretzel in order to keep it going because somehow I convince myself I need to. Why? Usually these guys don't bring anything to the table whatsoever.

My next boyfriend will have a job, a career even(!), will be as independent and stable as I am and will not be acting out.

If I never meet him, so be it. Life is good.

FindingPeace1

This struck me because my family didn't express feelings and problems, either. Luckily, in my family system, we just play nice/neutral. (Better than raging, etc.) Nonetheless, it left me empty in many ways. Afraid of my own feelings. Choosing partners that avoid feelings and problems.

Here's the thing, though, I have been reading a bunch that talk about:

* how men, in general, don't deal with emotion and communication the way women do, but women expect them to.
* How baby girls, from day one, are more sensitive to isolation and lack of contact.
* How men have higher sensitivity to arousal thus sensitivity to overstimulation, thus avoidance of emotional overstimulation. So when a man is confronted by a woman's unhappiness or criticism, he gets a release of coritsol that feels bad so he further avoids her/discussing it.
* Men are more susceptible to feeling overwhelmed by their emotions.
* Men are culturally trained to avoid communication/intimacy/exposing vulnerability
* Females have more cells in the area of the brain that mediate language and connect the linguistic areas with the emotional areas.
* How women (biologically and historically) tend to feel fear in times of stress and how men feel shame. Women tend to want to talk to soothe our fear while men want to avoid others to soothe their shame.

So, if there are all these books on this stuff, it must be pretty common. And I totally get feeling irrational discomfort/fear/upset around stuff from deep wounding or cultural wounding.

So, how do we tease apart what is "normal" dysfunction and "abnormal"? I recognize using alcohol (and addiction in general) is a non-functioning way of dealing with these issues. Lying, cheating, abuse - all non-functioning ways of dealing with these issues.

But, at the same time, I feel like we expect them to relate like we do (as women)...anyway, at least I want my husband to communicate like I do. It seems "healthy" to express one's feelings, be vulnerable, etc. But there seems to be some percentage of my husband's issues that are universal for men in our culture. Yet, we feel like the "healthy" way to relate is to "express feelings and emotions". How much of this is a catch-22 for men? How much of it is wanting connection, but only OUR way (versus more active expressions of affection and connection that men feel more comfortable with)?

I realize this could be taken too far. One could get caught up in this and ignore big problems in a relationship. Nonetheless, my fear and push for more communication/more expression of feelings/his shame and avoidance is right up there with some of the biggest problems in my relationship.

Comments?

MAuigirl

"Those self-defeating, learned behaviors that result in a diminished capacity to initiate or to participate in loving relationships"

What struck me:

"Learned behaviors". They are learned, so that means they can be unlearned. This gives me hope.

"Diminished Capacity to initiate or participate in loving relationships." I see that. Even to the point that I seem to pick friends who are needy too. The relationship needs to be lop-sided, with me being the mother.

"It is natural to want to protect and help the people we care about." I guess the problem comes when we ignore our and others' boundaries because of this.

Ceres

Great quotes!

"But, at the same time, I feel like we expect them to relate like we do (as women)...anyway, at least I want my husband to communicate like I do. It seems "healthy" to express one's feelings, be vulnerable, etc. But there seems to be some percentage of my husband's issues that are universal for men in our culture. Yet, we feel like the "healthy" way to relate is to "express feelings and emotions". How much of this is a catch-22 for men? How much of it is wanting connection, but only OUR way (versus more active expressions of affection and connection that men feel more comfortable with)?

"I realize this could be taken too far. One could get caught up in this and ignore big problems in a relationship. Nonetheless, my fear and push for more communication/more expression of feelings/his shame and avoidance is right up there with some of the biggest problems in my relationship."

Communication is one of the five love languages (it's a book). So, communication may be your main language.

Not sure how long your husbands been sober, or if he's sober? You hit the nail on the head I think in there. These rules don't apply to people who are active drunks/users because they are too wrapped up in their own little worlds of pain. Newly sober people too. Or, people suffering from other disorders. The rules are different. So, communication, though possible... may have to find a really personal unique approach. Personally, I wouldn't expect one! My husband proved to be completely unable to provide even my fundamental needs. He didn't want to bother trying. So, we're no longer together.

Ceres

I veered off topic again! :-P

Learn2Live

CoDependence, to me, is less about who I am and more about the choices I make. If I have learned nothing else about Recovery, it is that Recovery is a process whereby we become more and more conscious and aware of what we have been and are doing, and we learn how to make conscious decisions for our lives, as opposed to just doing things automatically. Breaking free of CoDependence means not just following someone else, or just "monkey-see, monkey-do," but really thinking through my choices and decisions.

CoDependence is a way of relating to others. Most notably, I am a caretaker. I think of EVERYone else's needs before my own. I neglect my own needs and responsibilities daily because I am so focused on others' needs. I have been making efforts recently to identify the ways I do this in my every day life and then retraining myself NOT to.

I am easily drawn into CoDependent relationships. I have to be alert and listen for when I am being drawn into one. Many people shift their own responsibilities onto others. They feign ignorance about how to handle something so that I will think that they are incapable, and do it for them. They "prove" inept so that I will take over, or so that I will make all the decisions for them. They pin another person against me by mentioning things the other person said or did that they know will contradict my opinions, etc. They will play me against those other people and vice versa. Breaking free of CoDependence is to recognize these tactics and manipulations for what they are. It means stepping back, maintaining my composure, keeping my mouth shut, and preventing myself from reacting to the other person.

I have noticed that many of the people I have been involved in a CoDependent relationship with have been the LAST BORN male in their family. I know some folks believe in how birth order may affect personalities.

Insulated

At first I kind of didn't identify with the definition. The obsessed with another person changing. When I internalized this, I actually thought ummm, yeah. That's right. I wanted another person to treat me better, therefore they would have to change an I became obsessed with being treated better by the same person. Yes the self defeating behaviors stabbed me in the eye! going to get my binder out and write about all three significant relationships in my lifetime.

roxiestone

I have to say that I hate the term codependent. I mean how could any word that contained "dependent" be used to describe me? I was a take charge, get things done, you need someone to take responsibility? I'm you woman kind of person. It was the very term that kept me from delving further into it. I finally read this book for the first time about six years ago. It was an eye-opener.

I've spent decades trying to get my mom to change her behavior and alternately cleaning up her financial messes. I nearly drove myself crazy over it. Now I know that I am powerless over people.

#2. Write about a codie relationship. I learned codependent behaviors in childhood as a result of my mother's compulsive spending as a result of what now think of is her very low self-esteem. Her spending kept us at the edge of financial ruin all my life, but fabulously dressed. It was all about the external. I learned to be defensive and reactionary awaiting the next disaster and emotional fallout to hit. There's more, but this is where it began. I internalized the low self-esteem, placing value on external things and people pleasing. I also became the adult and the boss in that relationship very early on. I became the responsible party in that family. And I continued to make choices in partners where I was the responsible one which became controlling.

I'm now looking to break these habits, as they are learned behaviors as noted. I learned the crap, now I'm going back and am trying to learn the good, healthy stuff. In many ways, I'm reparenting myself - teaching me the things others learned years ago.

Ceres

2.) Do you know anyone who has significantly affected your life, somebody whom you worry about and wish you could change? Who? Write several paragraphs about that person and your relationship. Later, read what you wrote. What are your feelings?

I had to gear up and think about this one. "whom you worry about and wish you could change" Sounds to me like I outta pick someone in my present.

Now, I have plenty of relationships even friendships with people I'd like to change something about them. I think part of this is being human. Like my girlfriend who can't seem to be sober except for three months at a time. Or another girlfriend who appears to be addicted to "love". Another friend who tends to isolate too much. So, worrying in this sense can be normal. AS long as it's not all consuming. If, for instance, I alway's brought it up. Or, if it became the guiding force in the relationship to fix 'em up.

So, while thinking of who to concentrate on in this excersize. I really wanted to avoid the OBVIOUS. You know, my husband of 9 years (anniversary this month) Who I'm going to divorce. To tell the truth. I just don't care. I'm totally indifferent to anything he does, or is doing, or is not doing - except when it pertains to the kiddos.

Since he's left it's been amazing, fankly. I feel like I can finally do some growing. I think I could have done the growing anyway. Afterall, I've spent the last 1/2 years doing just that. I believe I have done all I can. I've tried many different strategies to get him to open his lil peep-holes and take a GOOD look around. I'm satisfied and DONE.

I'd like to write about my mother (she was a doozy) because it all started there. But, I think Melonie will get into all that later in the chapter probably.

My husband:

Met him online, he liked seafood and lived 20-minutes away. Met at a bar. He rented a beachhouse back porch to sand. 3 months later I weasled (yes, manipulated) my way in. ie: I moved in. I was 29. Time forr me to get married. 'cause appearances was everything and all. He never had a GIRLFRIEND. Yep, NEVER. This made him even easier to manipulate. Now, mind you he was 38. So, never having a girlfriend should have been a huge red flag. But, I saw it as an opportunity. This week I learned something about myself. Here's one of my emotional mathematics?:

I typically SAY: "I'm Freaking Out"

Which really MEANS: Anxiety

BECAUSE of: Uncertainty

Which Comes FROM: Fear of abondonment

So, I'd go through this whole scenario over and over again. Here's the kicker, it has nothing to do with him. As a matter of fact, if I remove all my sickies. I wouldn't have even liked him. But, he was easily tangled. This then turned into wanting to mold him into what I thought a husband should be. No prior girlfriends to have screwed him up. He was a squeaky clean slate ripe for manipulation. Except of course, he was an addict and alcoholic. So, my whitchcraft didn't quite go as planned. Instead we were two very sick people pretending to be FINE! We never had any business being together in the first place. The relationship was built on a foundation of mystical dust. I had no control over him. I thought I did. That's how I seemingly play the game. With an illusion of control.

However, I was with this man for 9 years. He put up with all my crap and I did his. The thing is. What I now want in a companion. Is someone who will NOT take my crap. I do not want or need someone who feeds my charachter defects. I don't want to feed anyone else's either.

I'll end with, my house feels different. With each day, my home feels gentiler. I'm still sick. I just don't have the other entity here to bring all my sickiesl to the surface at once. I can now work on each one at a time.

Pelican

Definition of codie in my own words:

My unhealthy reaction to another persons behavior.

When I first began my recovering, one word stood out that described my unhealthy behavior. Reaction

I lived most of my life reacting to other peoples behavior. I can examine my life of reacting in my recent marriage. I have taken the time to learn my part in the failing of that relationship and most of it was due to my reacting to the relationship instead of responding.

Reaction VS Response

That describes my unhealthy codie behavior.

I have read CNM more than once. The first time I chose to look at my then current relationship with my AH. I did activity # two on that relationship.

Since then, I am looking at my other relationships with people like my parents and my other long term relationships.

For today, I try to catch myself when I feel the impulse to react to a situation. I am trying to coach myself into giving ME more time to examine my part in the situation and look for a healthy response.
One Day At A Time!

roxiestone

They say the road to enlightenment begins in that one breath BEFORE reaction.

Pelican

That's a keeper!

Thumper

That is good.

When I read about the unwritten silent rules it almost screamed off the page.

"The rules that prohibit discussion about problems; open expression of feelings; direct, honest communication; realisitic expectation, such as being human, vulnerable, or imperfect; selfishness; trust in other people and in one's self; playing and having fun; and rocking the delicatley balanced family canoe through growth or change - however healthy and beneficial that movement might be."

They were all so true for me and I did recongnize that they were true for me before I met my dh. It was the first time that I admitted, a little bit, that perhaps I had grown up with a parent that had a problem with alcohol. That indeed my family is riddled with problems with alcohol, some out in the open, some not. If you were a raging drunk screaming at people, a sloppy drunk ringing the bell at 2am, or so addicted your life was a dangerous disaster - everyone acknowledged the problem. If you simply drank every day then no one spoke of it.

And the co-dependence. OMG. It is rampant from so many generations of alcoholism and the affects of unchecked codependence.

alanonicnov2008

This resembled my story a LOT. At 37 I had had it with relationships that weren't working out...just got out of a relationship with my boyfriend of 2 years who wouldn't even admit we were in a relationship to me or to anyone else...and I wanted to have a family. So what do I do? I call the guy I know is "in love with me" [because he told me he was -- of course!] so that I can have the relationship that finally works out. We were destined to be together because he told me as much!

Well never mind the fact that I had already put a restraining order on the guy the year before, and that he was a recovering RAGING alcoholic late stages, blackouts, etc. So we start our relationship (how romantic is that?) and within a few months I discover not only that he was never in love with me, he's Mormon and would never marry non-Mormon, abandoned his ex wife after three months and forced her to have an abortion because she ASKED HIM TO GET A JOB, and, he wasn't really even working, but instead, was PAYING to work on jobs he considered cool (he's an aspiring at age 40 photographer/cinematographer).

So the night he stands up my parents (a meeting he himself had arranged) I tell him I don't want to speak to him anymore. Instead, I call him a week later to find out "how he is doing" [codependent checking up] and he tells me that his Al Anon friends (who I have since discovered are actually very unrecovered alcoholics) told him that I was being ridiculous for getting upset and I needed to go to Al Anon (and become Mormon) to get my personality under control.

Fast forward one year later, I've been in Al Anon for one year, and *I'm* still not good enough to marry. I show up at Mormon church, deciding to convert, and within a week he starts a flirtation with another woman and tells me about it. So I get to take that to a meeting...big surprise the relationship did not last more than a year into *my* recovery.

I am really tired of my self will wreaking wreckage on not only my life but the lives of others. About 6 months ago in the throes of this relationship which was going nowhere and was a continual kick in the teeth over all the things I wasn't...I had a conversation with my Higher Power and decided to accept the news of no family, no relationship, possibly no future with another person, in exchange for peace, a mission to-be-revealed, my sanity, and most importantly, my sense of self.

That's where I am now, with a daily reprise. It is a struggle. But I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. Now my major questions are how can I avoid getting into this scenario again and what can I do with my life? We have no grandkids in my generation in my immediate family and no connection to extended family so I think in a lot of ways my desire to attach myself to someone else is a desire to not end up alone forever. Until I get over that fear...I realize that I have to be...and may always be. But that isn't a reason to abandon myself too.

Ceres

^
That post was so powerful, I'm at a loss for werdz.

alanonicnov2008

ha i meant reprieve but now that I think about it at this stage in recovery it's still a reprise! It's both

Thanks for listening guys I realized after I wrote it that I had never actually put together all of the components of my current state, but that really sums it up (and it cathartic to express).