using "do YOU want" to get my OWN needs met
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using "do YOU want" to get my OWN needs met
So, my husband and I are backcountry skiing yesterday and we get to a spot where the trees are thick and we pause. I say, "Do you want to go that way?" pointing to an open spot in the trees to the left.
"Not, really...I don't care." he replies.
Then he says, "Do YOU want to go that way?"
AHHH, wise one he is!
Yes! I want to go that way.
We do.
It is a good way.
Another story.
Last Sat we are 15 min away from dinner being on the table (nut/bean loaf, veggies, and salad).
I say, "Do you want gravy?"
"Umm...no. I don't care. Not really."
I don't make gravy.
We sit at the table.
I take my first bite of loaf.
I realize I'd like gravy.
Third story.
Years ago, we are hiking.
We come upon a low lying, bouncy, fallen tree that is over the path.
"You should hang on that and bounce," I say.
"I don't feel like it," he says.
"It looks like fun!" I insist.
I can't remember if neither of us did or both of us did.
So, what is bubbling up now is that I realize when I am with him (with others in general, maybe) I want to please him.
I may have a rule that says I don't get to please myself.
So, I try to offer him what I want, in hopes that he will accept it, I can fulfill on it, tell myself I am pleasing HIM and really please myself!
Deep!
I think it plays out in MANY ways in my life. I feel like catching/remembering these 3 stories is like the tip of an iceberg to what effect it is having on my life, but THANK GOODNESS for the tip showing so I can look at this!
Now the work is to PAY ATTENTION and catch myself ASKING. It's in the asking that I can find more of myself...and give myself what I want.
"Not, really...I don't care." he replies.
Then he says, "Do YOU want to go that way?"
AHHH, wise one he is!
Yes! I want to go that way.
We do.
It is a good way.
Another story.
Last Sat we are 15 min away from dinner being on the table (nut/bean loaf, veggies, and salad).
I say, "Do you want gravy?"
"Umm...no. I don't care. Not really."
I don't make gravy.
We sit at the table.
I take my first bite of loaf.
I realize I'd like gravy.
Third story.
Years ago, we are hiking.
We come upon a low lying, bouncy, fallen tree that is over the path.
"You should hang on that and bounce," I say.
"I don't feel like it," he says.
"It looks like fun!" I insist.
I can't remember if neither of us did or both of us did.
So, what is bubbling up now is that I realize when I am with him (with others in general, maybe) I want to please him.
I may have a rule that says I don't get to please myself.
So, I try to offer him what I want, in hopes that he will accept it, I can fulfill on it, tell myself I am pleasing HIM and really please myself!
Deep!
I think it plays out in MANY ways in my life. I feel like catching/remembering these 3 stories is like the tip of an iceberg to what effect it is having on my life, but THANK GOODNESS for the tip showing so I can look at this!
Now the work is to PAY ATTENTION and catch myself ASKING. It's in the asking that I can find more of myself...and give myself what I want.
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The crazy/silly thing is, "Who cares?"
All three of these examples are times when the stakes are low.
I had time to make the gravy, for example.
It shows the depth of my discomfort with having wants and fulfilling them for myself.
Am I afraid to be selfish?
Maybe.
I want that external validation that it is a good idea or not silly or that's it's reasonable. I'm not sure exactly what...except that I can practice validating myself.
All three of these examples are times when the stakes are low.
I had time to make the gravy, for example.
It shows the depth of my discomfort with having wants and fulfilling them for myself.
Am I afraid to be selfish?
Maybe.
I want that external validation that it is a good idea or not silly or that's it's reasonable. I'm not sure exactly what...except that I can practice validating myself.
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Posts: 35
I've also noticed that being around people who say "I want" instead of "do you want" makes me vaguely uncomfortable, like that person is being controlling.
Gives me a clue how I attract codependency in my relationships--it's nothing mystical. I just gravitate toward the type of person that makes me most comfortable.
Of course, "I'd like some gravy--how about you?" is just good manners.
Gives me a clue how I attract codependency in my relationships--it's nothing mystical. I just gravitate toward the type of person that makes me most comfortable.
Of course, "I'd like some gravy--how about you?" is just good manners.
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Originally Posted by lc2846 
Of course, "I'd like some gravy--how about you?" is just good manners.
It COULD be that I was passively trying to get him to make it cuz it sounded too hard. If I suggest, maybe he'll take the ball and run with it? Maybe a more honest thing to say would have been, "I'd like gravy, but it sounds to hard to make. Would you make it?"
My husband is not an asker. He does things for himself most of the time. I CAN be good at delegating (not sure why sometimes I can...), and he gives me s**t (just teasing me) about how I delegate. I think I am reticent to ask for things 'cuz I am afraid I will look selfish, and because I don't want to be selfish, I delegate unconsciously in a passive-controlling way to avoid feeling like I AM selfish while still getting out of doing what I don't want to do. I think his teasing me is him passive-controlling me, trying to get me to stop passively controlling him!
Sorry if that is too confusing. We're two codependents codie-ing on eachother. Does that make more sense?
I think with the skiing, I was afraid to be wrong. If he agrees, then if we go that way and get stuck or lost I won't be responsible? He wouldn't care if we did get stuck or lost, and the truth is, the chances of either of those is infinitesimal, so I don't know what I am so afraid of. Looking stupid? Not sure.
With the hiking, was I afraid to look childish in front of him? Maybe. If he did it, I wouldn't be alone in my childishness? With physical stuff I tend to bow out. Maybe because I was an awkward kid. I most often missed the ball. Last kid picked on the team. So, maybe I have shifted my ideas of what might be fun to "you do it" automatically because I have a vision of myself as not doing adventuresome or athletic things (although I do both all the time...)
I think this "do you wanna" to get needs met is a bit of an octopus that is in many part of my life for many reasons.
On another note, thanks, Anvil! I've been doing great the last few days!
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You know, Anvil, it's interesting...we are in a different generation (I think), but are playing out the same thing.
My mom just watched the movie The Burning Times about witch burning and she said they talked about it like the Holocaust for women. She said she thinks the legacy of that is still in our DNA/body memories. We, as women, have to please the other to survive.
Maybe that's it.
My mom just watched the movie The Burning Times about witch burning and she said they talked about it like the Holocaust for women. She said she thinks the legacy of that is still in our DNA/body memories. We, as women, have to please the other to survive.
Maybe that's it.
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LOL,
I used to also, although I'm trying not to, ask someone "how are you?" "are you okay?" "is something bothering you?" etc when I want to talk, and needed help/love/attention. My strategem appears to be, I'll listen to you offload: do my bit and then you will turn around and ask me if I'm okay, and I'll be able to get what I need.
it doesn't work very well (un surprisingly, mostly I get a "i'm fine" or a 2 hour rant after which I'm left high and dry). I have realised that I had no direct method for asking someone to help me, to give me time: I literally didn't know what words you are supposed to use. I find it really uncomfortable.
In fact, irritatingly, if I get an "I'm fine" sometimes I follow the person around repeatedly asking them if they are okay, bugging the life out of them, because by "are you okay?" what I really mean is "please help me".
clear as mud.
I used to also, although I'm trying not to, ask someone "how are you?" "are you okay?" "is something bothering you?" etc when I want to talk, and needed help/love/attention. My strategem appears to be, I'll listen to you offload: do my bit and then you will turn around and ask me if I'm okay, and I'll be able to get what I need.
it doesn't work very well (un surprisingly, mostly I get a "i'm fine" or a 2 hour rant after which I'm left high and dry). I have realised that I had no direct method for asking someone to help me, to give me time: I literally didn't know what words you are supposed to use. I find it really uncomfortable.
In fact, irritatingly, if I get an "I'm fine" sometimes I follow the person around repeatedly asking them if they are okay, bugging the life out of them, because by "are you okay?" what I really mean is "please help me".
clear as mud.
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Originally Posted by wifeofadrinker
You know, Anvil, it's interesting...we are in a different generation (I think), but are playing out the same thing.
My mom just watched the movie The Burning Times about witch burning and she said they talked about it like the Holocaust for women. She said she thinks the legacy of that is still in our DNA/body memories. We, as women, have to please the other to survive.
Maybe that's it.
My mom just watched the movie The Burning Times about witch burning and she said they talked about it like the Holocaust for women. She said she thinks the legacy of that is still in our DNA/body memories. We, as women, have to please the other to survive.
Maybe that's it.
If you want your daughter to survive in such conditions, you teach her how to manipulate to get her needs met and to please those she is subject to.
women in the UK couldn't initiate divorce until the 1970's and a husband, even one you were seperated from could not be charged with rape, because it was his right to have sex with you, whetehr you wanted to or not, until a test case in the early 80's (late 70's? I was old enough to understand the significance of the case at the time).
Witch burning is a part of it, but you don't need a body memory explanation: its all around us still now.
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I agree with Jen about women's rights and there being a connection with codieism.
I am from the south and I was raised to put others ahead of me at all times. I did this until 1 1/2 years ago when it no longer worked for me. Boy, have I been harboring some big resentments. One obstacle for me was recognizing that when I put L ahead of me and expected him to take care of my needs as I was tending to his, I was giving him my power and trying to control the situation. I gave because I loved him and I wanted to please him. HOWEVER, in my mind he was SUPPOSED to return that affection after accepting it. Years worth of resentments built up.
Now, I try to not do that at all. I do find that I am much less likely to offer help to others now as I used to all the time. I also say NO much easier than before. It feels selfish at times, but it beats harboring anger towards others.
I am from the south and I was raised to put others ahead of me at all times. I did this until 1 1/2 years ago when it no longer worked for me. Boy, have I been harboring some big resentments. One obstacle for me was recognizing that when I put L ahead of me and expected him to take care of my needs as I was tending to his, I was giving him my power and trying to control the situation. I gave because I loved him and I wanted to please him. HOWEVER, in my mind he was SUPPOSED to return that affection after accepting it. Years worth of resentments built up.
Now, I try to not do that at all. I do find that I am much less likely to offer help to others now as I used to all the time. I also say NO much easier than before. It feels selfish at times, but it beats harboring anger towards others.
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I think frequently about how girls of mine (b 1965) and my mother's (b. 1930's) generation were raised and I can easily see how it factors into our codependency. Even when I was in high school in the early 1980's, none of the girls I knew, myself included, would have outright called a boy if we liked him. We were supposed to wait for him to call us, to ask us out. We were to go where he wanted to go, do what he wanted to do. In marriage we were expected to make him dinner, to bring him his plate. My mother was very uncomfortable discussing her own needs. The closes she will get to it is just to say that she is very sad and unhappy. She won't, even if asked directly, say straight out WHY. Hey mom, maybe it's because you've spent 50 years waiting hand and foot on a man who treats you like cr@p.
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oooo, Anvil ..I can relate to your experience growing up.
I have an older sister who doesn't seem to be codependent and I've been thinking about why I am. My mother was always waiting, waiting, waiting for my stepdad to try her with respect and "come around." He would treat her like garbage. She'd get upset, contemplate divorce, and then go back. Every single time. My sister would always come to me when they would argue..."Call the police, do something!"
I guess all the exposure to this turned inward and my sister was able to go on get married, have kids and control her pretty lazy husband..while I'm stuck codependent and depressed.
I was shuffled around between my dad and my mom and they BOTH taught me I was an inconvenience. My mom by taking back a man that created chaos and unhappiness for all of us repeatedly and my Dad by trying to start his life over as a sad, broke bachelor. Its amazing the lessons you pick up.
Whew. I always forget about all this stuff. Maybe I need to talk to counselor about all of this. As you get older, you begin to see it clearer.
I couldn't tell you what I want most of the time. I was so busy trying to fit into two separate worlds. And o man, if so much as breathed the wrong way...I think that's underlying factor with codies...
No one on either sides had a drug or alcohol problem, but there sure were no boundaries and I definitely learned that I wasn't really a priority.
Maybe my sister was too old when all of this was going on and had already defined her self-worth more.
GREAT THREAD!!! Taps into a lot of matters.
I have an older sister who doesn't seem to be codependent and I've been thinking about why I am. My mother was always waiting, waiting, waiting for my stepdad to try her with respect and "come around." He would treat her like garbage. She'd get upset, contemplate divorce, and then go back. Every single time. My sister would always come to me when they would argue..."Call the police, do something!"
I guess all the exposure to this turned inward and my sister was able to go on get married, have kids and control her pretty lazy husband..while I'm stuck codependent and depressed.
I was shuffled around between my dad and my mom and they BOTH taught me I was an inconvenience. My mom by taking back a man that created chaos and unhappiness for all of us repeatedly and my Dad by trying to start his life over as a sad, broke bachelor. Its amazing the lessons you pick up.
Whew. I always forget about all this stuff. Maybe I need to talk to counselor about all of this. As you get older, you begin to see it clearer.
I couldn't tell you what I want most of the time. I was so busy trying to fit into two separate worlds. And o man, if so much as breathed the wrong way...I think that's underlying factor with codies...
No one on either sides had a drug or alcohol problem, but there sure were no boundaries and I definitely learned that I wasn't really a priority.
Maybe my sister was too old when all of this was going on and had already defined her self-worth more.
GREAT THREAD!!! Taps into a lot of matters.
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Thanks...what a great thread and great stories, wife. Count me among the "what do YOU want" questioners.
I can remember the first time the counselor (in a couples' session) asked me what I had wanted from my A that morning. I sat there and cried & recognized the desire to get really pissed and get up and walk out of the session due to my own fear, because I couldn't say, "I wanted you to have coffee with me this morning." Major lightbulb moment! I couldn't say it, couldn't ask for what I wanted, and it was coffee for Pete's sake! We all sat there in silence while I cried for something like 2 full minutes. Unreal.
All kinds of abandonment issues in there, too..."I can't ask because you'll reject me by saying no, and then you might punish me and leave me alone, and I can't handle that."
I can remember the first time the counselor (in a couples' session) asked me what I had wanted from my A that morning. I sat there and cried & recognized the desire to get really pissed and get up and walk out of the session due to my own fear, because I couldn't say, "I wanted you to have coffee with me this morning." Major lightbulb moment! I couldn't say it, couldn't ask for what I wanted, and it was coffee for Pete's sake! We all sat there in silence while I cried for something like 2 full minutes. Unreal.
All kinds of abandonment issues in there, too..."I can't ask because you'll reject me by saying no, and then you might punish me and leave me alone, and I can't handle that."
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LOL! I didn't follow a recipe, but this is (ish) what I did (I made some changes to improve it from what I did)
* 1 cups kidney beans -- partially mashed
* 1 cups cooked scottish oats (cooked in veggie broth)
* 1/2 cup oat/veggie broth
* 1/4 c dried rolled oats
* 2 eggs -- beaten
* 1/2 c sharp cheddar cheese -- shredded
* 1/4 c raw sunflower seeds
* 1/8 c ground flax seeds
* 2/3 c red pepper, chopped
* 2/3 c carrot, chooped
* 2 c red chard, chopped
* 1 small onion, chopped
* 1 roma tomato, chopped
* 1 clove of garlic, chopped
* 2 tbsp tomato paste
* 1/4 teaspoon freshly ground pepper
* 1/4 tsp freshly crushed rock salt
* 1 Tbsp Bragg liquid aminos
* 1/4 tsp of each: garlic powder, onion powder, sage, garlic salt, oregeno, basil, thyme,
* salt
* 2 tablespoons onion -- chopped
* butter, extra virgin olive oil or coconut oil to saute veggies
* Preheat oven to 350 degrees.
* Soak dried beans overnight and cook forever to get them to soften.
* Bring 1/4 c scottish oats and veggie broth to boil in a small saucepan, then simmer for 15 min (oats will not be finished cooking)
* While oats are cooking, partially mash beans and put in a large mixing bowl.
* In a saute pan, add onions and stems of red chard and saute till till onion begins to soften.
* Add red pepper, carrots, and tomato and cook till it begins to soften, then turn off heat
* Add chard and veggie broth and stir mix together.
* Add veggie mix to bean bowl with the rest of the ingredients.
* Mix together gently.
* Put mix in foil-lined bread loaf pan and cook 40 min (or so)
This is lovely when sliced with the dark red/brown beans, orange carrots, red peppers and green chard!
* 1 cups kidney beans -- partially mashed
* 1 cups cooked scottish oats (cooked in veggie broth)
* 1/2 cup oat/veggie broth
* 1/4 c dried rolled oats
* 2 eggs -- beaten
* 1/2 c sharp cheddar cheese -- shredded
* 1/4 c raw sunflower seeds
* 1/8 c ground flax seeds
* 2/3 c red pepper, chopped
* 2/3 c carrot, chooped
* 2 c red chard, chopped
* 1 small onion, chopped
* 1 roma tomato, chopped
* 1 clove of garlic, chopped
* 2 tbsp tomato paste
* 1/4 teaspoon freshly ground pepper
* 1/4 tsp freshly crushed rock salt
* 1 Tbsp Bragg liquid aminos
* 1/4 tsp of each: garlic powder, onion powder, sage, garlic salt, oregeno, basil, thyme,
* salt
* 2 tablespoons onion -- chopped
* butter, extra virgin olive oil or coconut oil to saute veggies
* Preheat oven to 350 degrees.
* Soak dried beans overnight and cook forever to get them to soften.
* Bring 1/4 c scottish oats and veggie broth to boil in a small saucepan, then simmer for 15 min (oats will not be finished cooking)
* While oats are cooking, partially mash beans and put in a large mixing bowl.
* In a saute pan, add onions and stems of red chard and saute till till onion begins to soften.
* Add red pepper, carrots, and tomato and cook till it begins to soften, then turn off heat
* Add chard and veggie broth and stir mix together.
* Add veggie mix to bean bowl with the rest of the ingredients.
* Mix together gently.
* Put mix in foil-lined bread loaf pan and cook 40 min (or so)
This is lovely when sliced with the dark red/brown beans, orange carrots, red peppers and green chard!
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Originally Posted by posiesperson
We all sat there in silence while I cried for something like 2 full minutes. Unreal.
All kinds of abandonment issues in there, too..."I can't ask because you'll reject me by saying no, and then you might punish me and leave me alone, and I can't handle that."
All kinds of abandonment issues in there, too..."I can't ask because you'll reject me by saying no, and then you might punish me and leave me alone, and I can't handle that."
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Chiming in with a comment about my codependent mom. She does this ALL THE TIME. If she wants to stop at the grocery store, she'll ask me if I need anything, then tell my AF "dothi wants to go to the grocery store".
It's really irritating because she "should" just be able to speak up and say, "I need to stop at the grocery store" instead of parading me around as her excuse. It comes off as sneaky and insecure. But I know she does it because after years of being married to the successful alcoholic that my father is, she's received the message loud and clear that what she wants isn't important, so she feels she needs to tie her need onto someone else's "more valid" need.
This behavior is not just frustrating for your spousal relationships but for your children as well. We learn it, repeat it in our own relationships, and wonder why we're spinning our wheels not getting what we want. My partner has called me on this behavior that I learned directly from my mom.
"I want" may sound controlling, but if you grew up in a house where only one (probably controlling) person expressed "I want", then you're not going to recognize it in a healthy context. I've known some awesome ladies who scare my (in recovery) sister because they are so good at just telling me what's on their mind rather than making it detective work. I quiz my sister, "well isn't it better that X let you know where she wants to go for lunch rather than make you guess? You don't want to go there? Maybe you should also say what you want so that she knows too."
Plus, quite frankly, it's a sign that you're still carrying the crazy. And I've got to watch my crazy intake - even a little can throw me for a loop!
posiesperson ----> :ghug3
That's it. Only positive reinforcement for my mom herein.
It's really irritating because she "should" just be able to speak up and say, "I need to stop at the grocery store" instead of parading me around as her excuse. It comes off as sneaky and insecure. But I know she does it because after years of being married to the successful alcoholic that my father is, she's received the message loud and clear that what she wants isn't important, so she feels she needs to tie her need onto someone else's "more valid" need.
This behavior is not just frustrating for your spousal relationships but for your children as well. We learn it, repeat it in our own relationships, and wonder why we're spinning our wheels not getting what we want. My partner has called me on this behavior that I learned directly from my mom.
"I want" may sound controlling, but if you grew up in a house where only one (probably controlling) person expressed "I want", then you're not going to recognize it in a healthy context. I've known some awesome ladies who scare my (in recovery) sister because they are so good at just telling me what's on their mind rather than making it detective work. I quiz my sister, "well isn't it better that X let you know where she wants to go for lunch rather than make you guess? You don't want to go there? Maybe you should also say what you want so that she knows too."
Plus, quite frankly, it's a sign that you're still carrying the crazy. And I've got to watch my crazy intake - even a little can throw me for a loop!
All kinds of abandonment issues in there, too..."I can't ask because you'll reject me by saying no, and then you might punish me and leave me alone, and I can't handle that."
That's it. Only positive reinforcement for my mom herein.
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