Thumper

The alcoholic's behavior is wrong.

It is no surprise that we react in dysfunctional ways when we are in the middle of a dysfunctional world. The alcoholism explains the codependency but it doesn't excuse it.

Once the dysfunction is identified, then we need to take responsibility for our behavior. An alcoholic being wrong does not make a codependent right. Staying or leaving, we are responsible for our own emotional health.

You are in a tough spot.

starrynite

Just popped in here and haven't read the book, but very interesting!

Wow! What a powerful statement. Maybe I should rethink my own prayers: Please let me be a better ex-wife to someone who's dying and is the father of my children.

LaTeeDa

It's okay to decide what's right or wrong for you. It's just that you can't decide what's right or wrong for someone else.

And, the other person doesn't have to be wrong in order for you to be right. This is the essence of acceptance. Whoever he is, it is right for him at this time. Whether you stay or go, you will eventually need to accept him as he is.

L

FindingPeace1

You're so wise.
I am humbled by the simplicity of it.
I can know those words, but I'm a tough soil to sink into!
I guess I'll need to hear it and hear it until it gets in for real!
Thanks.

MAuigirl

Wifeofadrinker:
I cannot speak to the drinking because my H is not a substance abuser. I came to this forum solely to explore my co-dependence. I CAN however speak to the above. It is not unlike when I would wind myself up so tight with with worry and accusations and anger and righteous indignation. Obsessing over what he was doing wrong and how to change him. I understand that the mental state you are in feels normal and at the same time no longer satisfies.

Our C talks about it like this: A marriage where you are both partners, moving together towards life more abundantly is where you want to be. That should be the state of normal. When you get upset about something and allow yourself to spin-off into obsessive crazy-land, THAT is not where you want to be, yet that is where you go and where you stay. In this place, you are unable to come together, talk about issues and move the marriage forward.

Soooo, he suggests an exercise: Think about a place where you have felt real peace and serenity. Now, take a deep breath (may have to take several) and then say "thankyou". This thankyou for me goes to God, send it out to whomever or whatever fits for you. Practice this as often as you think of it - he said 150 times a day. Now, when you feel yourself becoming agitated, upset or otherwise going down that familiar trail to crazy-land, do this exercise until you can honestly say you are at that place of peace.

Let me tell you I thought he was loco when he suggested it, but I am already seeing a difference in me. I am starting to be able to arrest the obsessive thinking and have been able to have several serious conversations with my H without shutting down and cutting off the conversation. I am creating a new normal in me - a place of peace and I like it.

LaTeeDa

It is simple. That doesn't make it easy, though.

Only experience creates wisdom. It's not something anyone can give you, you have to get it the hard way.

I resisted letting go and acceptance with every fiber of my being. Until I finally did it. Others shared their experience over and over, and it nudged me in the right direction, but I still had to do it myself. And I can't describe the feeling of relief when it finally happened.

L

FindingPeace1

:ghug3
I know you've probably given me this message 10,000 times on 5,000 posts so far, but it means a lot every time.
I'm plugging away at this self-change thing.
It's a SLOW process with MUCH resistance!
LOL!

Learn2Live

WifeOfADrinker

I've thought about this a bit more...maybe this additional feedback will help a little... (CAPS for emphasis, not yelling)

Right. But WHERE DOES being justified, being right, or being just like everyone else GET YOU? Does it make you feel at peace, serene, or happy?

Weren't you/Aren't you getting "stepped on" anyway? Alternatively (more deeply) try this one out: NO ONE is stepping on you. NO ONE is doing anything TO you. He is doing everything he is doing to HIMSELF.

I know, sorry, I don't know how far you are in your recovery and this is a lot to think about so I apologize if I am out of bounds with telling you these. Anyway...

No, it doesn't. It only makes you feel negative. And look immature when throwing a temper tantrum (at least that's what I used to throw, in addition to my pity parties).

I really started being able to let this all go when I started working on Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

First I had to see and accept that the way I think, the way my thoughts were formed in my head, I WAS INSANE. At first, I tried the psychiatrist to help with this. Medicine helped a little, but really only for ACUTE depression. I was on pills for various diagnoses for YEARS. One of them helped me be a little more organized, and helped me to make sense of some everyday kinds of things, but really what helped me the most was finding and believing in a Higher Power. Then, because of the work I was doing related to my Higher Power, I started trusting more and ALLOWING that Higher Power to control the situation. It was truly amazing. And yes, that DID restore me to sanity. When you find your Higher Power you are able to LET GO of the idea that you HAVE TO control everything. When you have faith that your Higher Power is in control, you no longer NEED to hang onto that illusion.

Are you working a program?

I can't tell you how to think, or what to believe. I can tell you that looking at my significant other in terms of right and wrong NEVER helped me no matter HOW HORRIBLE the things ANY of those signficant others did, and no matter HOW HORRIBLE the consequences of those things. What MY Higher Power does for me is allow me to see that whether or not my Significant Other's behavior is Right or Wrong is NONE OF MY BUSINESS. It's NOTHING to do with me, and therefore, not between he and I. The Rightness and Wrongness of my Significant Other's behavior is between HIM and HIS Higher Power.

Bernadette

from insulated: "... like the pit and the pendulum. The pendulum was my wish for his sobriety and it gradually lowered with each swing and sliced me to shreds.....I just layed there.

This is a very powerful image.

Thanks for this-
peace-
b

bookwyrm

When I first read this, I felt it didn't really reflect my situation - no kids, we both worked full time etc. I still struggle to see myself in Jessica's story. But that's OK. I can see little glimpses here and there. The resentment I felt. The deadening of emotions within me. I still think I'm 'thawing' them out!

Our sex life vanished too - I didn't want to sleep with a drunk with personal hygiene problems. Who would? The biggest clue to there being another woman was when he actually took a shower before going out!!!

Anyway, I kept on reading and found more things that chimed with me later on in the book.

Ceres

he biggest clue to there being another woman was when he actually took a shower before going out!!!

FindingPeace1

I AM getting stepped on anyway.
Or, no one is doing anything to me...

That one is harder.
Isn't he lying to me? That is real...
It's the wrongness of it, huh? He is just being him.
I get to choose what I accept.

I found this same crazy thinking with the "baddies" in the world.
I have a hard time thinking about child molesters, for example, because if I accept they exist, I feel like I approve of their behavior and I can't approve of their behavior because my denial of their behavior or my upset at the idea of them blocks them from hurting people. (I recognize it is irrational.) Maybe it blocks them from scaring me...
If I accept they exist and stop feeling resistant at the idea of them, I feel like they are going to run rampant and hurt the world...which I recognize they are already doing. Or not, if you are really zen; they are just doing what they do. My upset dampens them or blocks them in some way. It mentally protects me from them, I think.
It's nutty. I agree.
I am doing it with my husband.
If I resist and am upset at his behavior, it blocks it (in my mind) in some way. If I accept it, I allow it. I permit. I encourage it, in a way. (I don't have power to control others - why would I think I do??) I feel like, it's my JOB to get upset at it. Like I am doing my social duty to discourage the behavior. If no one got upset, there would be no controls...it has to be controlled! It's a monster that will eat us!! I'm not safe!
I feel like I need to SHOW him I don't like it to protect myself. I have no control over it. It's frightening me. All I can do is be upset at it! It's like an insane tornado and me being upset at it comforts me that I am sane and it really is big and scary and I am rational for being so scared.

This is deep.

I intellectually recognize it's not my job to show him anything. I can't permit anyone else's behavior. I just need to take care of me. I can take action to protect myself and that's it.

Wow.

I wonder if I really feel like I must block it in my mind or get upset about it because I am afraid the child molesters, my husband's lying, or other baddies will hurt ME.
Like my upset or denial is my only means of control to protect myself...
There is a part of me that feels the lying or child molesting is so scary and frightening that I can't sit with it. It scares me. It makes me feel unsafe.
I have no control...
It's such a little kid's fear...

Just like my husband. But it's his own behavior that scares him.
WOW. Really deep.

Like when I was a kid and other kids were so mean...or when my dad left. I felt powerless. Like I don't know how to use my legs. I am lying under the pendulum and terrified and doing mental craziness to try to avoid getting sliced. And #1., I think the pendulum can kill me when it can't and #2. I can get up at any time.

How do I tell that little kid she's not going to die? That she has power? I feel like I've never USED my legs! How do I get up and walk away when I don't know if I know how to walk! I feel like the only thing I've ever known is to protect myself in my mind with upset and judgment.

I'm afraid to walk.

I don't even know why.

Sorry for co-opting the thread, but it's REALLY powerful stuff I am seeing!

Ceres

"I have a hard time thinking about child molesters, for example, because if I accept they exist, I feel like I approve of their behavior and I can't approve of their behavior because my denial of their behavior or my upset at the idea of them blocks them from hurting people. (I recognize it is irrational.) Maybe it blocks them from scaring me..."

I accept them as far as their existence. I tend to think of them as defective. Now, with that said. My drinking caused a tragic event that permanrently changed a persons entire existence (don't ask, I'm not telling, yet anyway). So, I can find empathy almost everywhere. From my own child molesters to the man who murdered my own mother. Now, to get here the way I did was totally avoidable. In my opinion. However, it did have me asking the big questions to make sense of it all. Afterall, who am I judge? I still find myself doing it. But, I quickly wrangle it in.

Your post, if you notice - Talks about a Child Molester and your husband. This speaks volumes to me as maybe it's a men issue? Maybe the book can help with forgiveness.

Learn2Live

I don't think that is nutty. That makes total sense to me. It's like the upset distracts you from the pain of reality? At least that's how I understand myself in some ways. My depression dulls the pain and distracts me from the truth that causes the depression in the first place. Kinda' like the alcohol used to before I quit.

LaTeeDa

Denial is a perfectly normal human coping mechanism. It's like a breaker switch in the brain that protects it from overload. In a healthy environment, we can reset the switch once we are feeling safe enough to deal with whatever pain/fear tripped the switch. But, for those of us who never had healthy behavior modeled for us, or never felt physically or emotionally "safe," we never learned how to reset the switch.

L

Ceres

^
Nicely said.

FindingPeace1

The crazy thing is the depth of my fear.
The depth I feel unsafe.
The NEED I have for HIM to be open so I feel safe.

I think it IS like using an DOC to protect from feeling.
I think it does go back to my powerless, terrified inner children.

It's like his issues and my issues are equally powerful and separate. It's not really about his behavior...it's about my fear.
It's a lot easier to say, "He's a lying alkie and lying alkies are WRONG and HARMFUL and I should get away."
It's harder to say, "I feel frightened and unsafe in this relationship and need to
a) protect myself from someone that makes me feel emotionally unsafe and
b) do some self work to figure out why I feel so emotionally unsafe and powerless.

I also have an echoing voice that says, "Your feeling emotionally unsafe and powerless negates you saying anything about his behavior because you brought feeling unsafe and powerless into the relationship WITH you! HE didn't do it! He's just being human."

I feel like if he's not labeled "wrong" then what's my problem, anyway? I appear to be a wounded scaredy cat.
<sigh> The mental gymnastics our minds do to avoid change!!

BTW - I am doing the steps on my own because there is no group within a couple hours drive from here.

MAuigirl

Being tossed to and fro on the waves is not a safe or peaceful place to be. Lots of issues here I think.
1) I am responsible for my feelings and actions. No one can make me feel or do anything.
2) He is responsible for his feelings and actions. Nothing I can do or say will force him to change. Only he can change himself.
3) there are words, actions, things that I do not want in my life. That is my choice. It is neither good or bad it simply is. If I don't want peanut butter in my house that is my choice.
4) I have the right to set up boundaries around these issues and declare that I will not have them in my life. If someone wants to do these things I cannot stop them, but I can choose to not have that person in my life.

Boy I could go on. I too have been living like a scared little girl. I started looking at my feelings and thinking about where else in my life I felt them. this led me back to my childhood and alot of painful memories. This time, I did not run from those memories but truly felt them. Felt them as an adult looking back at how a poor innocent child was treated and felt all the rage and anger that accompanies injustice. Then, a little later I looked at them again through the eyes of that little girl and felt all the pain and fear of being in a situation that I could not control. Then I realized that I am not that little girl anymore. I feel her pain and I feel the injustice, but I no longer choose to be defined by that. I choose to be a person who does not allow her life to be run by those fears, that anger.

That is how you change.

Pelican

Just a quick heads up about another Codie thread here at SR. It was started about a year ago by our member Grateful2b. It is a daily thread. Here's the link:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...part-12-a.html

Learn2Live

Nice post MauiGirl. I especially like the peanut butter. Thanks for sharing.