transformyself

I don't know which I believe-

that A's are sick, diseased people who are victims of their disease and only doing what alcoholics do

or that they are consciously making their choices just like the rest of us.

I think I believe something in the middle, because in my experience, I wasn't able to change until I somehow lifted into consciousness about myself. Became more self aware.

I've heard alcohol changes your brain, literally, which explains the progressive disease thing.

But I often look at my life and see how I consciously changed over time, became more aware of my actions and how it impacts people. I work at it.

And I see AH doing the same, except he can make gains in some areas but his alcoholism doesn't get better. It's only getting worse.

Anyway, I wonder what others think about the choices aspect of this. yes, they make their own choices, but then we're told they're just doing what A's do and that shouldn't surprise us. So then are they by nature unable to change?

Tricky...

iwantcontrol

I have been wrestling with that question myself – I’ve not had an addiction to anything, and I can only compare it to biting my nails ever since i had teeth, or trying to eat healthily and ending up craving chocolate or crisps and giving in. I know it’s not the same really, but in those circumstances I know i’m doing something i don’t want to be doing and i know i’ll feel guilt and shame and annoyance about doing it, but i do it anyway. On that level at least it has similarities with real addiction – I think they must have moments before they drink where they make a decision in their heads to do it or not.
I am struggling with the concept that it is a disease and they do it because they can’t help it at all – if that were true no one would ever be able to reach sobriety. I think there probably is a moment of consciousness before drinking where they decide they don’t care about the consequences, they want it and need it and are going to have it no matter what. Perhaps i just think that today because i’m in a bad mood with my ABFs situation – i don’t know, but that’s my opinion right now.

stella27

I think they have to accept that the disease of alcoholism has messed up their brain and their thought processes. Then they have to consciously try extra hard to act in ways that are not natural to them. I think they can do better - but only within the confines of the disease.

DesertEyes

I see it as _both_, and sometimes at the same time.

My ex had the choice to go see her doc about all the pain pills she was taking. She liked the pills too much and didn't go. _Before_ she started on a run of pills she was clear headed and logical. At this point she could still make choices.

Once she started on the pills her mind would go off into happy-land and she had _no_ choice. She made no sense, what was left of her logic was skewed, and she did what all druggies and alkies do when they're stoned.

Then she'd crash. Come off the pills, feel awful, be so sorry, promise never to do it again. Have a few days where she could think again. Except she would not do anything to get off the pills, she just tried to work out ways to be able to pill up and get away with it.

And she'd start on the pills again. Around and around the merry-go-round.

During those interludes where she was clear-headed she had the choice to try to stop. She chose not to. During the times she was pill-headed she had _no_ choice.

She suffers from a disease in that once the pills are in her there is a change in her mind that "normal" people don't have. Normal people feel _sick_ with too much pills, throw up, pass out and never want to do it again. Addicts feel _good_ with too much pills. They throw up and pass out _way later_ than normal people do, and then they want to do it _again_.

They feel that the "high" of the pills is worth the price of the consequences. Of course, my ex-wife had a dutiful husband (me) who kept covering up those consequences, which just made it easier on her.

Mike

keithj

Somewhere along the way of my illustrious drinking career, I crossed a line and lost the power of choice in drinking. I believe that without reservation. At that point, the most sincere and intense desire to stop drinking was of no avail. I lacked the needed power to quit.

I can tell you that when I was in that condition of alcoholism, whether drunk or sober at the moment, I did not see my actions for what they really were. I was delusional. Insane, absurd things made perfect sense to me. I was only able to see that insanity in looking back after I recovered.

However, I also believe that I was 100% responsible and accountable for my actions and for my recovery. I am also 100% accountable for repairing the damage I caused. Any alcoholic who leans on the victim role is still suffereing from that delusion, in my opinion.

It's as if I had really poor eyesight and kept wrecking cars and hurting people. I can moan all I want about how it's my poor eyesight causing me to crash into things, or I can got get some damn glasses and take a driving class.

BuffaloGal

I think the two are not mutually exclusive. "Consciously making choices" is a slippery term. I doubt any of us is 100% conscious of our reasoning... or our rationalizations. It's easy to see what other people are doing that way, but in ourselves? Not so much.

Without being on the inside of someone else's head, I can never know how they experience things... and the older I get, the more I think that everyone's subjective experience is probably very, very different. As my ex said, "Sometimes when you say something is obvious, it isn't obvious to me." And he was right. He has a weakness regarding perception of consequences of any particular course of action. Is it alcoholism? Was he just born with a blind spot that way? Does he just not want to see consequences because then he'd be forced to make unpleasant choices? I have no way to know. All I can say for sure is, he operates with a different set of abilities and shortcomings than me.

GiveLove

After pounding so much recovery into my head, I'm happy to say that I no longer really care which it is. I have opinions, but they don't matter much.

My boundaries are my boundaries.......regardless of whether someone else feels they have a choice, or feels they have no choice. The end result is the same for me.

No alcoholic craziness.

Period.

Got too much to do, and only another 40 years or so to do it (if I'm lucky)!!!!

littlefish

I believe that alcoholism is a disease. As an alcoholic, for a long time I resisted that idea. My last relapse finally convinced me of the power of the disease.

I just finished reading "Under the influence": it is an excellent book for an alcoholic, but also those involved with an alcoholic. The first part of the book examines the disease from a physiological point of view, then examines the alcoholic and the stages of the disease.
The second part of the book reads like a handbook for family and friends.
I highly recommend it!

wanting

I think that seeing it as a disease is really helpful for people who have an alcoholic in their lives and need to be less angry about it, and it can be helpful for alcoholics who need to see that moderation, etc. is not going to work. But, I think "disease" can become another excuse for alcoholics or alcohol abusers and their enablers.

If it actually IS a disease, then it's a very special one where people can actually choose to recover from it if the disease is at a certain stage. I think that whether an alcoholic still has a choice in the situation depends on 1) how far advanced the disease is physically, and 2) how bad the circumstances of their childhood and/or whatever led them to drink were. Both of those things have a huge effect on a person's brain and chemical composition, so I believe they determine whether a person has a choice.

I think in a way, you can compare it to the choice a person in an abusive situation has. They can call 911, they can go to a shelter, etc., etc., but depending on how bad the abuse has been and how bad the circumstances of their lives were that led them to this scenario, they might not really feel as though they have a choice.

I also think that some of this can't be explained, and where someone no longer has a choice...that's where a Higher Power can step in.

Anyway, obviously I'm not a psychologist, but these are my random thoughts about it. Hopefully they're coherent enough.

Jazzman

In the summer of 1983 I quit my full time day job at a butcher shop and night time guitar player in a band job and went back to school. I started selling coke to replace my day job steady income. When I started I was a casual user. In six months I was a full blown needle shooting coke head junkie taking chances with my life on a daily. After a close call with the law I quit cold turkey. I quit in 1983 and never relapsed, ever. I was an addict that got clean and stayed clean.

In my teen years my Father had a run of bad times and started drinking heavily and taking the socially accepted drug of the 70s for people with stressful lives/jobs, Valium. He became addicted to both, was given an ultimatum and quit cold turkey and never relapsed. He was sober until the day he died. He was an addict that got clean and stayed clean.

My late ex wife started drinking heavily at an early age and had quite the relationship with alcohol. She was an addict. She was both ashamed and embarrassed about her addiction. She hated it. She tried to control it, she tried to quit, she knew how many lives were hurting because of her addiction but she could not stop. Her addiction was terminal.

From my experience there are as many different types of addicts as there are people AND, once you realize an addiction has gotten a grip on you, you know exactly what's going on. Now admitting it to others around you is another issue all together. Sure as the sun will rise tomorrow your husband knows exactly what's going on. And he has a choice every day, to either continue his addiction or reach out for help. He makes that choice EVERY DAY.

leelee5675

Ditto.

I lived with an alcoholic father for years and years. What I saw was that if he landed in a situation for a long period of time where he couldn't drink (like the hospital) and he could get the alcohol completely out of his system, he could go month/years without drinking. Once he took one drink, though, it was on again for months/years.

TakingCharge999

I don't know but it helps ME to think it is a conscious choice they make, every single thing they do, they are accountable for. It helps ME to get angry and stay away.

Kittyboo

We are actually studying neuroscience right now in psych and the effect of addictions on the brain...etc.
It is proven that alcoholism is progressive, yes. It certainly impacts how people interact with others. Alcohol lowers inhibitions period. I am not an alcoholic, but i certainly know that when I do drink...another side of me comes out. Sometimes a fun side, and sometimes a side that I would rather not connect with.

As far as the choices they make...I can only give my perspective based on what I have been exposed to. But I do feel that many do consiously make the choices. My XA CHOSE to lie to me. He KNEW it was wrong, he KNEW he was doing something wrong, so he lied.
They hide liquor because they don't want to get caught....because the KNOW there is something not right about them drinking, it is frowned apon. That makes it a consicous choice.

As far as the statement "they are just doing what A's do.." well, it seems that there are SO many similarities in their actions and their words that it becomes impossible not to lump them in one group and say well, they all do that.
When I reflect I realize how horribly my XA treated me.....I compare it to the steps he took to get his ex wife back. Wow, well, when a man/or woman, really wants something, there is no stopping them from going after it. Alcoholic or not. Now their motivations may be different, but actions speak louder than words, period.

I believe when someone tries to justify their actions, to the point where they are defensive about it, it is a CONSCIOUS effort to do so. Because they know, somewhere on the other side of their neurons, that something about this isn't accepted....so I better lie. Conscious.

I think many times, we get so caught up in trying to understand their behavior, trying to justify it so that we don't internalize it, it really doesn't matter why they are doing what they are doing.
What matters is what kind of relationship we want with someone. Will I give someone an excuse for behavior because they are an alcoholic....no.
If we stay with someone who treats us horribly, over and over, if we choose to ride an emotional roller coaster because they choose to pick up a bottle and give themselves an excuse to treat people poorly, that says more about us than it does them.

There are ways to kick alcoholism to the curb. It has been done, it will continue to be done. There are those who truly want to kick the habit, and there are others who don't want to take the steps they need to do so. THAT is a choice.

JMHO.

Forever4you

As someone in the medical field I can tell you that if you study the actual physiological side of addiction you can understand very much how it is a disease.

I believe someone has already referenced the book "Under the Influence". That is an excellent read for anyone who wants to truly understand the disease of alcoholism. It is a book that will answer that heart wrenching question "WHY"?

I personally believe that addiction is a disease. I also personally believe that relapse is a choice. Once an addict finds recovery and understands their disease they then have the choice to continue the treatment that will save their life. Or they can choose to relapse which could inevitably end it.

gerryP

Maybe we need to define "disease" Forever4you. No one can choose to relapse when diseased with cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular disease etc.

In fact the term "Alcoholism" is not used in the DSM any longer. There is "Use, Abuse and Dependence" (of alcohol). I quit abusing alcohol almost 5 years ago after 25 years of it being a huge part of my life and I will go to my grave believing that if and until the emotional reason (s) for abusing alcohol is not diagnosed and treated, it is next to impossible for anyone to stay stopped. I believe alcoholism is a symptom...of....a mental health disease ie depression for some.

LaTeeDa

It doesn't matter to me whether it is a physical disease, mental condition, allergy, or weakness. What matters to me is the behavior. My XAH's behavior was unacceptable. The why makes no difference to me. There is no excuse for unacceptable behavior--alcohol or not, disease or not.

L

littlefish

Actually, it is an unresolved issue in the medical/addiction/psychiatric care community as well. The fact is that even the experts are unable to agree on the exact nature of the illness. (Most if not all professionals however do agree it is an illness).

After that though, there is much disagreement.

There are two ways to look at it. The traditional view of alcoholism is moralistic: alcoholics are weak, selfish and depraved individuals with no moral fiber who can easily stop drinking if they want but they don't want to. When a Scottish physician actually suggested in the late 1800's that it could be a physiological disease, it caused a furor. Up until the last century the standard view is that alcoholism is a moral failing, and, more exactly, a chosen moral failing.

But there is clear scientific proof now that alcoholics are different physiologically in at least two important ways, and more studies keep coming up showing additional differences from "normal" people. Alcoholics show in tests a liver cell misfunction which causes the inability to eliminate the alcohol byproduct acetaldehyde; when this substance reaches the brain it blocks enzymes in the brain from processing amines....and then....various things happen...I'll skip over the rest of the process and go straight to the signifigant result of it: the overabundance of this enzyme triggers chemical activity and enzyme activity in the brain that not only act like opiates but stimulates the part of the brain that recieves and becomes dependent on opiate and opiate-similar substances. This is the addiction connection.
This unnatural build up of acetaldyhide does not occur in normal people when they drink.

The second aspect is genetics. The heredity aspect of alcoholism is often misunderstood because people often view it from a geneological view, (grandpa wasn't a drunk, how can I be?) rather than the much more important genetics point of view. Geneology has us looking back a couple of generations, but our genetics are steered by hundreds and thousands of years. Native American can test out at rates as high as 80% alcoholism in some groups, northern Europeans at a lower level but still much higher than southern Europeans.

How can Italians have a low rate of alcoholism yet have one of the longest historical exposures to alcohol as a genetic group? Because their long exposure has allowed the population group to genetically eliminate an intolerance to alcohol and the physiological defects that cause alcoholism.

AA has had enormous success with a program that encourages the alcoholic to embark on a program of personal development in recovery, despite clearly supporting the fact that alcoholism is a disease. This somewhat conflicting approach in is probably the reason why the AA program is often questioned and criticized. AA is rooted in a spiritual movement that was popular in the 1930's. But it works, and literally every single medically based treatment program that exists explicity instructs it's patients to us AA after leaving recovery. Not only that, but the US court system has chosen to use AA as part of sentencing with alcohol misdemeaners. I personally view the AA program as behavior modification. It is spirituality based, other programs have removed the spiritual aspects, such as the Minnesota method and SMART, but still kept the core structure of the program that modifies behavior. The behavior modification, in whatever form it takes, is essential for lasting sobriety.

As an alcoholic I know that my addiction affected my thinking: I didn't think I needed to stop, or if I did, I thought I could taper off, control my drinking, and even choose to not drink. None of that happened, I just became more and more chronic.

I sincerely believe the difference between myself and, for example, my three untreated alcoholic brothers, is that I finally rejected the moralism: the idea that I just needed a little more will power, that I could "do it on my own, if I only tried". Instead, I accepted that I might have a disease and that I could NOT do it on my own, no matter how hard I tried.
If I had not considered the idea of alcoholism as a disease, I would still be passed out on my sofa wondering why I am such a weak and selfish person.

Jadmack25

I believe that genetic make-up pre-disposes someone to the inability to use alcohol in a normal fashion, and that there is such a thing as an addictive personality.

Looking at my family, I can see only 2 absolute alcoholics, my uncle and my sister.

My late XAH's family, there were him, his brother, and father.

My RABF can trace alcohol abuse back 4 generations that he knows about, plus I have no doubt his son was an A, but was killed in a car accident at 22....when drunk.
His brother used to drink, had some over the top times (his words), chose not to drink again and can happily enjoy his life without a drink.

In 20 years the longest period of continual sobriety for RABF has been 15 months, and God knows how many attempts.......lots of half hearted ones for sure.

He is also "addicted" to horse racing and playing cards, fortunately he is very successful at both of them, otherwise he'd be in deep s*&t, and I long gone.

I also believe that there is the choice of getting help or seccumbing to the craving for a drink, and that is where I have to draw my line. I know as well as he does what that 1st drink has led to and does lead to, and if that is what he chooses to do at some future time, I will choose to get out for good.

God bless

IamSaved

A-freakin'-men!

Summerpeach

This is a very helpful thread