FindingPeace1

There are a couple other posts that touch on these topics, but I have so much to say, I thought it would be too much of a hijack...

I am back at home. Feeling depressed. Hanging in there.

My husband is pretty balanced lately. Sad and physically distant, but not rollercoastery. He's back to being very thoughtful and kind, like he is most of the time. Gentle.

I have told myself that I would try to get me and my wants/needs/boundaries straightened out before I try to talk about our tough stuff. Needless to say, it has come up (either from him or me).

Last night, he used the analogy of my driving. He said if he didn't like my driving (which I think he doesn't), he knew about it before we got married and he knows about it now and why would he bring it up?
He sounded so sad and hurt...

You know, he's right. I changed. I can't say that is fair. It's tough. I DID change! I wasn't ready to address things until now.

I responded, "But what if you realized it made you feel unsafe?"
He had no reply, just "I don't know."
If I have a good point that he can't refute, he just says "I don't know."

I had said there was one thing that was sticking with me from our big talk that I wanted to discuss.
His eyes closed and he winced and held it. He was silent. Looking pained. Before I said anything.
I said, "You look like you are waiting for a fire fight. I haven't even said anything yet."
He said, "Because I know you are just going to yell at me again like that day ** and tell me more of the awful things about me, which you are probably right about and will just make me feel like more of a big jerk. I am tired of wondering if you're monitoring everything and judging everything. I am tired of expecting you to do more criticizing of me. You don't accept me as I am. I am not mini-you. I'm human and flawed. I get to grow on my own time. You don't love the whole of me. You don't love me as I am. I was doing my best and it was not good enough. What else is there? And I don't know if I can feel safe anymore since I know that. Since you have hurt me like you have.
I haven't wanted to go to therapy because that's what people do when they divorce. I don't know anyone that went to therapy and came out with a stronger relationship after it. So its just another nail in the coffin."

I said, "We're already there. We already can't talk."

He agreed, in a sad voice, to go.


** When I confronted him about lying, hiding and drinking, he recalls that I yelled at him and character bashed him. I think, if I bring up stuff that is critical, or feels critical to him, he thinks I am yelling. I have yelled at him at other times, but I remember consciously NOT yelling that day. <sigh>

What I will say to newcomers to this board - I would recommend if you realize there are things that are bothering you, before you spill them to your partner, try to get clear on what you are asking for. What are your boundaries? What is just NOT ACCEPTABLE. Because telling someone what you observe that is dysfunctional without stating what you need is just hurtful to them, as true as it might be. Particularly if that person is already hiding and defensive about it. And goes nowhere but more misery. As they say, there is no cheese down that tunnel.**

So, he shared his feelings (yay!), but we never talked about him hiding stuff from me.

Now, I just feel like a big jerk. I am hurting him with my needs. Blech!
I don't want to hurt him. I know that it would be very easy to gang up on him in therapy to try to force him to talk. I will say things in therapy he won't "let" me say normally. It will hurt him more. My goal is not to hurt him more. I am starting to think therapy would not help, but could be a weapon I use against him. Does that make sense? The things that I want to talk about (including my needs) just make him sad and depressed. So maybe I just have to accept when my needs conflict with his needs, there is no talking about it. Maybe I have to let go of talking about these things with him and take it or leave it...I'm am still in hope that if we could just TALK about things...
Really? It's impossible to just TALK? Really??!?

Am I forcing him into therapy? Will it just hurt him? Do I just have to let go of talking about these things with him?

He's just a basically good guy. He really is. He's got some messed up ways of not dealing with life, but he's doing his best. And he loves the heck out of me and I love him, too. (I can hear me telling someone else that respect trumps love. It does.)

That is just SO SAD! He's stuck and depressed and self-critical and hopeless! How do I walk away from someone I love that needs love? (He needs his own love.) DAMN!

Just in a stuck space today! Thanks.

Serenebynow

Hi wifeofadrinker, I'm the gf of a dry mostly alcoholic. I can relate to the things you've shared, sadly, changes in the wind...change is in me. Because I am in recovery, my changes are mine. I want to stay positive, he doesn't. I like this path I'm on and he can either follow by his own attraction to change, or not. His choice when couples counseling was mentioned, was what for? --Nothings going to change.
I know that unless I work on my issues, I can't change. As I focus on me I am changing slowly, little baby steps.
We are not alone anymore, makes me feel a little better, and a little stronger each day.

coffeedrinker

You know, he's right. I changed. I can't say that is fair. It's tough. I DID change! I wasn't ready to address things until now.

I don't think anyone can play the "fair" card here. Maybe it in some bizarre way is not, maybe it really is (cuz what is "fair" anyway). But every single one of us does change throughout our lifetime. It's called GROWTH. We change physically and we change in other ways. Sometimes partners grow apart, when they cannot grow together. It's one of the sad pieces of this life. Please don't feel guilty.


When I confronted him about lying, hiding and drinking, he recalls that I yelled at him and character bashed him. I think, if I bring up stuff that is critical, or feels critical to him, he thinks I am yelling.

My ex-husband often felt this way as well. He felt "nothing's ever good enough for you" and that I was overly critical. His feelings were often hurt. Did I feel bad? Sure. For the situation. Did I ever feel wrong for wanting more, for wanting him to acquire better mental health? He!! no. These are his issues, they are deeply rooted and they CAN be addressed. That's the reason we go to therapy.

Now, I just feel like a big jerk. I am hurting him with my needs. Blech!
I don't want to hurt him. I know that it would be very easy to gang up on him in therapy to try to force him to talk. I will say things in therapy he won't "let" me say normally. It will hurt him more. My goal is not to hurt him more. I am starting to think therapy would not help, but could be a weapon I use against him.

I think that if I do something wrong, or if I am insensitive, I'm gonna feel bad. That's good! Some guilt and other feelings of remorse are there because they point us in a direction. This can be productive. You likely have some valid feelings of remorse, and some "not valid" ones. You can probably separate the two and look at what in your actions has not been ok.

If you guys go to a good therapist, it won't be "me good, you bad" type of beat-up sessions. My former husband and I tried marital therapy several times, with very limited success. Sometimes it did seem a little like a beat-up session, because he had this glaring things we needed to address. But more often it was about how we percieved each other, what we really meant, what we wanted out of our relationship, how to better address and relate to one another, how to communicate effectively, etc.
I am currently seeing the same therapist as my S/O, and I know that both of us feel we are being served - that he is not on either one's "side". This can be done.

I wanna say I feel for you, and this is hard stuff. But you are making progress and we can keep our fingers crossed that your husband will too. That thing about this being the beginning of your future divorce, is just fear talking. Take that as a good sign.
And he comment about you buying the VW Beetle and now wanting a Camry (or however he put it) -- that's his fear too. He wants to protect his pal the bottle. It is very important to him and he does not want to give it up. He knows deep down what's really going on. He's afraid to be vulnerable and he doesn't want to have to quit. If he loved chocolate cookies when you got married, but now he has heart disease and diabetes and is overweight....well, wouldn't you have to address that? It was ok with you that he had a chocolate cookie habit 10 years ago because YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS GOING TO CAUSE SUCH TERRIFIC PROBLEMS. (Ha, just thought of that analogy)

Now I'm the one sorry this got so long. I just had to respond to you. You are going to be so alright, sweetheart. Hang in there

FindingPeace1

That gave me shivers. But I think a more accurate statement would be, "Maybe he's talking but not about what I want to talk about."

I have done two sessions with a therapist (and love talking about me!), but I think I might go therapist fishing again, as I have some issues with this one.

So, its hands off the addict. Refocus (for the zilionth time) on me.

FindingPeace1

These are his issues, they are deeply rooted and they CAN be addressed. That's the reason we go to therapy.

If he goes just to pacify me, does it matter?

You likely have some valid feelings of remorse, and some "not valid" ones. You can probably separate the two and look at what in your actions has not been ok.

That sounds very balanced and probably true.

I wanna say I feel for you, and this is hard stuff. But you are making progress and we can keep our fingers crossed that your husband will too. That thing about this being the beginning of your future divorce, is just fear talking. Take that as a good sign.

What's good in that?

And he comment about you buying the VW Beetle and now wanting a Camry (or however he put it) -- that's his fear too. He wants to protect his pal the bottle. It is very important to him and he does not want to give it up. He knows deep down what's really going on. He's afraid to be vulnerable and he doesn't want to have to quit.

I think you are talking about someone else here...buying the VW Beetle? What?

If he loved chocolate cookies when you got married, but now he has heart disease and diabetes and is overweight....well, wouldn't you have to address that? It was ok with you that he had a chocolate cookie habit 10 years ago because YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS GOING TO CAUSE SUCH TERRIFIC PROBLEMS.

Weird because he DID get diabetes (Type 1, without the weight and heart disease), but this touches on another thing.
What if he doesn't eat right or doesn't wear his seat belt or abuses himself with alcohol. It impacts me, as his partner, but its HIS body. How do I balance the two? He feels its not my business. Is it, in any way, my business? And if so, how?

GiveLove

Anvil, your smilies are making me tired just watching them.

Wife, I wanted to just send along a hug. The journey you're on is not easy. But it's worth it, no matter what happens.

Even if it comes down to a basic irreconciliable difference - you dont' want to live with an alcoholic, he doesn't want to change -- at least you will have tried to find common ground first. Even if he finds it uncomfortable.

I think Therapy For Me First is a great strategy. It helped me to align exacty what I wanted, and what I was willing to accept. That makes communication with the people in my life clearer, gentler, and better overall.

FindingPeace1

You're right. I just feel so sad. Sad that I have a hard time focusing on me sometimes. Sad that I am in this situation. Sad that I think I will eventually leave my marriage. Super, super sad today.

LaTeeDa

One of the most difficult recovery concepts for me to get my head around was expectations. I was convinced that it was 'normal' to expect certain things from him because he was my husband.

Someone finally got me to understand that it is okay to expect certain things from certain roles, but not from individuals. So, if I have expectations around the role of "husband," that is fine. BUT, having those expectations around MY husband is unreasonable in the sense that it requires HIM to change to meet MY expectations. Since my expectations are not his responsibility, I have to decide if I want to change my expectations, or change his role in my life.

I hope that makes sense.

L

FindingPeace1

I love you folks very much.

1234

You guys are making me cry.

Wifeofadrinker, I don't know if it helps much to hear, but I am so inspired by your honest searching. I'm learning so much from hearing you and the others here at SR describe your ideas and experience. I don't mean to be callous, because we're talking about your pain here, but it's making a difference in my life. Thanks for sharing.

FindingPeace1

Well, 1234, that is a gift. I get so much out of both sides - the posting for others and the asking for guidance. It's pretty awesome that we can get so much for ourselves AND others benefit!

stella27

I only have one tiny thing to say:
I don't think it matters why he goes to therapy - whether to appease you or make you happy or get you off his back or whatever. It's important that y'all go and however he gets there, it is a good thing.

NYC_Chick

Hi Wife:

I went to therapy with xabf because there were a lot of things wrong with our relationship before I found out about him downing a pint of whiskey a night. He constantly told me that I made him feel bad about himself because I was always pointing out his flaws and what was wrong with him. After we got into therapy, I learned as much as I could about proper ways to communicate with him. I stuck to the rules, so to speak, he did not. What ended up happening is that he found new and interesting ways to manipulate me. This is because he was still actively drinking while we were in therapy.

I still see the couples therapist, but on my own. I have learned a ton and would not trade that experience for the world now. I guess the take away here is if you are going to therapy expecting that he will change, or miraculously admit he's an alcoholic, I would not hold your breath. Every case is different, but when I read your conversation with him, full of the sad expressions and almost identical words I used to hear, it just felt like ways to stave of the inevitable...you leaving if he continues to drink. I have been there and it just prolongs your own pain.

Hugs : )

stella27

Another thing about his assertion that you knew he was a drinker before you married:
You didn't know he was an alcoholic
and
As alcoholism is progressive, he has changed and his drinking has changed since you married. he may not be able to acknowledge this as he probably wants to believe he is in control, but he is not really the same guy you thought you were marrying.
Additionally, if he thinks that the way he is is so okay, why has he been going to such lengths to hide it? He knew you wouldn't like it.

It sounds like he is so passive and gentle and loves you, but I feel manipulated by his words. They say to me "you can't talk because your words hurt me." and that's not a situation that is sustainable. You can trust me on that one. Just replace "your words and needs hurt" with "your words and needs pi$$ me off" and that's my situation.

I think he is telling you to shut up - that you aren't allowed to speak your truth because it hurts him.

FindingPeace1

Good stuff. Thank you.
You'd think I'd learn quicker, but when I get down like this, I am perseverating on his imperfections. How sad I am about them.

I get stuck there sometimes...

...SOMETIMES! LOL! Lots.

Once I remove him from my sights and come back home, I feel more control and hope. I am already starting to calm down and hold on to myself.

Some Lyrics:
Breathe - Alexi Murdoch

In the quiet of the shadow
In the corner of a room
Darkness moves upon you
Like a cloud across the moon

You're a-wearing all the silence
Of a constant that will turn
Like the windmill left deserted
Or the sun forever burn

So don't forget to breathe
Don't forget to breathe
Your whole life is here
No eleventh hour reprieve
So don't forget to breathe

Keep your head above water
But don't forget to breathe

And all the suffering that you've witnessed
And the hand prints on the wall
They remind you how it's endless
How endlessly you fall

And the answer that you're seeking
For the question that you found
Drives you further to confusion
As you lose your sense of ground

So don't forget to breathe
Don't forget to breathe
Your whole life is here
No eleventh hour reprieve
So don't forget to breathe

Keep your head above water
But don't forget to breathe

Breathe....

Don't forget to breathe
Don't forget to breathe
You know you are here
But you find you want to leave
So don't forget to... breathe

Just breathe
Just breathe
Just breathe...
Just breathe...
Just breathe...

YouTube - Alexi Murdoch "Breathe" Vinyl Fever-Tampa, FL

Shine - Alexi Murdoch

I wonder why
we are the way we are
yes I wonder why
we are the way we are
and why
we only love each from afar

this is how we are fighting
this is how we are fighting
time
time

you spend your days
watching the door
yeah you spend your whole life waiting
but you don't know what for
you have everything you need right here
still you want more

oh this is how we are fighting
this is how we are fighting
time
time

well I didn't come here
looking for a soul
and I'm tired of watching dust
collecting on a bowl
I'm a spirit trying to be human
I'm just a spirit trying to be human

but I'm thinking this is how we are fighting
this is how we are fighting
time
time

you hold on to yourself
you're afraid that you might
get left behind

and so you hide your eyes
you're afraid that the light
will make you blind

but it's time
it's time to shine

yes it's time to believe in what you know
time to believe in what you know
time to believe in what you know
and you don't need strength to be strong
time to believe in what you know
no you don't need strength to be strong
time to believe in what you know
time to believe in what you know
time to believe in what you know
time to believe in what you know

time to believe before you go

YouTube - Shine--Alexi Murdoch @ Bowery Ballroom, NY

MissFixit

Hey Wife,

Sorry you are struggling.

Two things came to mid when reading your original post.

1. When he says you are not being fair: Life isn't fair... Someone told me that same thing when I was with L. "You aren't being fair and giving him the benefit of the doubt." My response was this is not a court of law. Life isn't fair. Nevertheless, I stayed for another year in the relationship. Anyway, you are his wife, not his mother or teacher. You don't have to take the lead role as great responsible fair play one if you don't want to. His lying and irresponsibility isn't fair to you, his wife.

2. His sad show is a form of manipulation. He might be sad right now, but guess what? He brought this stuff on himself. You are trying to hash out whether or not you two can continue being married. You are trying to salvage this thing. Yes, it is sad. However, he sounds like HE doesn't want to face HIS reality of being an addict. That is the path he has to walk alone. I once tried to walk it with my A and then for my A. Doesn't work and leads to a two way street of resentment. One thing that might be helpful to you is to step out of the moment of sadness and look objectively at what is being said. Taking the emotion away, what is said?

Cowgirl1265

I see some real similarities in your relationship and mine. (I guess that's not surprising, since we're all here for many of the same reasons!)

J used to say that I was "yelling at him" if we had a talk and I talked about something he was doing that I didn't like. Anything that felt like criticism to him made him just lose it, and frankly I wasn't helping when we would have those discussions because I didn't know then to use "I" statements and instead focused it all on him and what he was doing, not on me and how I felt.

He also uses my sympathy as a weapon. Our pattern has always been that whenever he is sad and needy, I stop being "mean" (i.e., seeking change) and start taking care of him again...thereby doing my part to help us both avoid growth.

Its been very valuable to me in learning how to navigate this relationship going forward as separated parents to say a lot of "That must be hard for you" and "I can understand how you would feel that way" -- offering empathy without trying to solve it for him and without sacrificing my own needs to help him stop feeling bad.

FindingPeace1

Weapon seems strong, but definately a TOOL! That is EXACTLY what he does.

Of course, I am TRYING to change him. Still. Hoping. Aack!

Bring it home. I think I need that tatooed to some body parts!

(So, what happened with you and he? How did you change? What did you end up doing? Where are you now? )

TakingCharge999

BEWARE:I ramble a lot on this post...

################################################

Ah yes, when I say anything uncomfortable I get the following automatic response "YOU dont love me" LOL!!

The good thing about having visited bad places on this city is that when I get lost and end up there again, I know the way out now... usually I answer "your manipulation tactics won't work. We are talking on this fact not my feelings or lack of them. However if you prefer not to talk about it then we can talk later" so it is great when you actually recognize BS and victimhood and "attacking the attacker" techniques (an alcoholic ex is like boot camp for this....)

When did relations get so difficult?????


Anyway I'm learning for any relation to work , BOTH need to be BRUTALLY HONEST with themselves, if one of them is not, it will all go down the drain eventually.......

Admitting you may still hope or want him to magically change is a step forward.... it's very tough.... but for me.... I try to think I can't control anyone at all, not just a partner... nothing much really, just me... and I try to navigate through my life to obtain as much meaning, satisfaction and joy as I can....

If one wants to be unhappy it can be a partner drinking, then if he or she doesnt drink then maybe its the dry drunkedness, if that is fixed then maybe its not as great as you expected anyway, and if your romantic life is great then WOW!wonderful BUT your job sucks, etc, well I see this very clearly with BF, who is like a mirror... for him and I have realized, for me as well.. there's always, always something to complain about or that prevents you from being alive NOW.... so nothing ever willl be enough for usto be happy..... and that way of seeing things SUCKS!! there's only bitterness and frustration.


I hope YOU can get to therapy, preferably individually, I think for ppl with codie tendencies its easier to lose oneself in such situations like couples counseling, at least I know I would be more interested in what the other says than in the ways I boycott myself .... I would be more interested in finding out if the other is honest or not..... than in sorting out what is it that I WANT.... and that's the basics, right?? knowing what one is REALLY after in the general picture?? what feeds your SOUL? isn't that the main topic???

coffeedrinker

I think it's back to what you are willing to have in your life. If you just can't handle him driving without wearing a seatbelt, you tell him. "I love and care about you, but I need someone who cares about himself too. I need to know that when you're in a car you wear your seatbelt, and if you do not, I think I have to move on. It's too hard on me"