KeepPedaling

True LaTeeDa. About his first round of drinking a few months ago, he said he just needed "a reminder" and "one last time to be sure" he didn't want to drink again. This time, he "had a bad day." So you're right. He's not serious about it, which makes me really sad for him and really sad for me because I don't get to spend time with him anymore.

Time for me to go, isn't it? You guys are just the best ever. I'm so glad I have this place.

KeepPedaling

It makes me feel so bad to see someone throw their life away. I mean, we don't get second chances at this do we?

Live

You have another chance to meet someone with whom your needs and wants are equally as important as theirs.

He always has the option of getting clean and rebuilding his life but that is something I wouldn't put myself on the sidelines for.
I did that for about 5 years. Seven years later that guy's alcoholism has only progressed and he has added a pain pill addiction...he has played out the same destructive cycle with women (and there is always a volunteer) and caused them nothing but chaos and hurt and some really bad consequences to them.

Pelican

KP,

There is hope for you ABF. There is a way out. He has to choose the time and the path. The best source of support will be from other recovering alcoholics.

TakingCharge999

I think, from a humanitarian perspective, it's ok to hope for people and give second chances. No one is a lost cause, and I don't think believing that makes me an unwell person. I think it makes me human.

I agree with you it is ok to trust people.... people who ACT towards health and becoming more humane themselves. Believing in lost causes and investing so much of you on someone who does not seem commited to improve doesn't make you human, just a victim or martyr. (I say this because I have been one and still repeat those patterns often!!)

You mention you want to be his friend. Alcoholics don't have friends, they got enablers, drivers, sex toys, fellow drinkers, nannies, nurses, "counselors", hostages. Friend? I can be your friend but in my humble experience... alcoholics and jerks and both, want people in their life according to what they can do FOR HIM or FOR HER... it's always about them.

You seem to have a great life awaiting for you yet you prefer to give this person your love and attention and friendship... he doesn't seem to value it. He has given you much grief, and I know the pain of hearing him drunk, driving back, he has added much sorrow and pain you may have not known earlier and wouldn't wish on your worst enemy, yet you are still willing to forget all that... why? what makes him so extraordinary or special?
While you try to be his friend and not have your heart or energy invested, etc., who is taking care of KP? who is seeing after her dreams. Who is protecting her? who is interested in her thriving and becoming what she can be. The very Best Version of KP she knows she can be. Her interests and hobbies and health and smiles. Who is there for her if its not this man, and its not KP either???

I am with the others, when you go No Contact your strength and resolve come back.
In my case its been a little over a year and the guy is exactly the same way, or worse, more drunk than ever, and seems to be having the time of his life with fellow drinkers. And sometimes it gets me again, but many times I'm cozily at home, in my bed watching "Mamma Mia!", with my kitties, etc and I know whatever he is doing, whoever he is yelling at, whoeer he is insulting: whoever he is driving around with and risking their life because his ego and delusions come first... whoever he is abusing and with whomever he is abusing his mind and body with industrial amounts of whiskey or whatever... IT IS NOT ME.... not me waiting for a miracle again... sacrificing my happiness... forgetting about me because I want to believe I'm a good person... forgetting friends and family and pets and interests and concerts and arts and history and news and sports and spirituality and cooking and gardening and anything great in this world... for some person that doesn't give A DAMN.... its sooooo not worth it I hope it doesn't take much more time for you to realize it is not that difficult to forget about them and keep them OUT of your life..... in fact seeing their actions, REMEMBERING the feelings they gave us, the pain...its not difficult at all.. ITS VERY EASY!



Oops got carried away with this post.. don't take me wrong it's just that I've got the 'fortune' of knowing one, for one year, then another year of mourning, and now I run into him and NOTHING HAS CHANGED AT ALL so it would really suck for you to believe in someone who is a loooong way of ever getting it or doing anything else than drinking and using people to his advantage.

TakingCharge999

Also for my "saving the world" tendencies I enjoy volunteering on an animal shelter or providing $$ to CARE international, Doctors without frontiers, Handicap Intl, etc., now THAT is time/energy/money that is well invested

KeepPedaling

Thanks TakingCharge. I really appreciate the post.
I've decided that it's better for both of us to go no contact. I'm obviously damaging for him because we fought both times before he drank, so I'm the trigger, right? I'm not helping, but hurting. So I need to leave him alone.
I'll be hurt if I stay or if I go, I might as well choose what is healthiest for the both of us and unfortunately that means being apart.

Learn2Live

I have been exactly where you are Keep. I agree with Keith and would like to add that just by BEING THERE while he lapses and relapses; just by talking to him on the phone, no matter HOW you react (saying nothing, remaining calm, flipping out, whatever); just by continuing to be in his sphere; you are enabling him to continue to think the way he thinks. The alcoholic will bounce things off you and watch you very closely to find the reaction (or non-reaction) from you that gives him or her the excuse to continue drinking NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE. That is the nature of the disease. Other people become tools, mechanisms, for the continuation of the delusions in the mind of the alcoholic. Every one who decides to be in the alcoholic's life becomes a tool for the continuation of the disease; there are no exceptions.

No, it is not healthy or OK for you to hope FOR him and his sobriety; that is HIS job. Doing his job for him is codependence. Codependence is unhealthy. You listing out all the reasons why you believe hoping for him is not codependence is denial.

Try to look at it this way; try to answer the questions:
What do I want from him?
What needs am I trying to get met by him?
Once you have the answers, see if you can get those needs fulfilled by fulfulling them yourself.

littlefish

I can't add much more to Kieth's post because it was spot on. I think you might want to think about how you were so firm in your resolve to end the relationship a short time ago but went back: and it is worrying that you spent some what sounds like a sizeable money on him...for the wrong reasons.

These are real codependent red flags!
I know the territory, I am not only a recoverying alcoholic, but I've been a codie to most of my family members most of my life and always managed to find relationships with men ALL my life that were also codie.

I went out of my way to establish codie relationships: I didn't know how to act any other way.

You mentioned that you have read a lot about being codependent, but maybe a couple of alanon meetings might shed some new light on your situation and your behavior?

coffeedrinker

Been there, done that.

And I think it does help. A little. A tiny little.
The thing is, his desire to drink outweighs those good times in the world.

As someone (thanks, crackquack!) here just said in a post yesterday (or was it today?)

Addiction trumps Love every time.

It's just the truth.

I'm really sorry. And bravo for turning the car around. I'm not entirely sure if I would have had that strength.

Jadmack25

My RABF also gave me that " he would have felt more loved if I would have been there for him. He felt unloved and abandoned when I left, so kept drinking."

I felt awful, guilty and fell for it so often, til I realised that it was a load of bull.
It didn't matter what I did or didn't do. All that mattered was that his bottle called and he ran after it, not giving a thought to me at all.

I WAS FREE...

I have said that it is up to him what he does, but I will not be around if he picks up even 1 beer, whether he has just that 1 or 100.

God bless

Live

oh, wait a minute....you are blaming yourself for too much of his behavior and choices.
You didn't trigger him to drink. He drinks because that is what he is about. You aren't powerful enough to cause him to stop drinking or to start drinking at any time of any day.
Please do consider all your needs as your important concern, his do not need to dictate your thinking, feeling or actions. Don't let his needs and wishes become your to-do list.
He is going to do what he wants no matter what...he has chosen drinking and that is about the only thing that you would be able to rely on, due to the nature of alcoholism.
hugs,
Live

Helenlee

"Ugh! What's the big deal about booze? God. It's not even that fun to drink. It makes you feel like crap and act stupid. I don't get it."

What if we change this to: "Ugh! What's the big deal about codependence? God. It's not even that fun to enable. It makes you feel like crap and act stupid. I don't get it."

I remember one of my big lightbulb moments. I was on he phone to my girlfriend, talking about my husband. "Why can't he just stop? Why can't he see how much his drinking has cost him? He's such a great person in so many ways - & he's throwing it all away over alcohol."
It suddenly occurred to me I was doing the exact same thing - over my addiction to him.

The issue is not that you need to have less compassion or care or empathy for your boyfriend. I agree that it is human, & I think desirable, to have these emotions towards anyone in need. The problem begins when we have more compassion & care & empathy for others than we have for ourselves.
I use to consider women who wouldn't look twice at an alcoholic sort of cold & aloof & I believed they had some sort of superior attitude about themselves. I'm beginning to see that it's my high tolerance for inappropriate, selfish & cruel behavior that's kept me in codependent relationships all my life. My very low self esteem & self confidence set me up for a life of misery. My husband is in jail for the 3rd time for alcohol & driving offences. My life is a train wreck. My children have been horribly horribly damaged by BOTH of our insane behaviour - & I'm STILL having a terribly hard time convincing myself not to let him come back! Toying with codependence is about as healthy as toying with heroin.
The earlier you get off this ride, the less you will suffer. I'm 46. Please don't leave it that long.

wicked

Wow, Helenlee! This was a lightbulb moment for me.
I am a recovering alcoholic, but jumped directly from the fire of alcoholism into the pan of codependence!

Beth

KeepPedaling

That's so funny.

KeepPedaling

Helen,

Did it start out that bad? I mean, was he EVER a good guy to you? Sometimes it's hard to decide where the line is. Before mine was with me, my xabf got loads of DUI's, some jail time, lost his home, friends, job, etc. Almost two years prior/leading up to and during the time he was with me, he was in recovery (AA all the time), in college, super fit etc.

The first 6 months with me, the REALLY bad stuff was that he was self-absorbed and emotionally immature. He was never physically or verbally abusive. He said some stupid things when we fought, but never anything like calling me four or five letter words.

Then he had his first relapse (while with me). So I was outta there for a few months.

Then we got back together. During that time, he was making things half about me. It seemed like he was getting the hang of being in a relationship. He still did the same nice things that he did before: He always did the cooking (yay! I hate cooking) and a lot of helping out around the place, he complimented me, he listened to me vent about work, normal partner stuff.

Then we got into a fight and he went home and drank.

So, it's hard for me, I guess, when I hear about how bad things can really get, to think about him as this big horrible abusive alcoholic or myself as a codependent (I know you guys are really going to dig in here). It's true, before I came to this forum and when I first started dating him, I was SO BAD! I mean, I was helping and helping and helping. But the second time, after I'd spent a lot of time reading and listening, I was pretty darn good. Things became pretty equal. He was really pulling his weight and I was focused on my own life again. It felt good...for 3 weeks.

So both times he drank I felt so scared for him, and so sad and abandoned myself. THAT is the emotional damage that I get from being in his life. It's freeking traumatic.

KeepPedaling

Helen, when he gets out of jail, what are you planning to do? Does the distance from him help? I mean, are you feeling better each day?

RollTide

This thread is really what I need to hear today. Thanks!

Bernadette

So, it's hard for me, I guess, when I hear about how bad things can really get, to think about him as this big horrible abusive alcoholic or myself as a codependent

Extremes of thinking for me generally leads to denial, paralysis, wishful thinking.

I try to just assess things rationally.

So he's not a big mean abusive alcoholic.
And you're not a codependent.
Fine.

But don't minimize bad behavior or bad relationship dynamics. Don't settle for less than you are worth. None of us is all bad or all good. But it is a healthy thing to recognize whether or not a person or a relationship is good for us. And the abundance of info on this board and elsewhere indicates alcoholism is a big flapping flashing waving red flag that screams: dysfunction ahead! Whether the alcoholic is an abuser or gentle as a lamb, the overriding dynamic is one of dysfunction.

It sounds like you learned a lot in your 3 weeks. However please don't blame yourself for his relapses and go no contact because you believe you are damaging for him! Again, he is an alcoholic, doing exactly what alcoholics do.

Do what's best for YOU!

peace-
b

KeepPedaling

Thanks Bernadette. Someone said something about the dangers of flirting with codependence (a post above I think). it's so true. I THINK I can handle everything and take care of everything, but both times he drank, even though I KNOW it wasn't my fault, but I can't stop that thought from creepin' in, "If I hadn't of gotten in a fight with him, he wouldn't have drank."
It just affects a person, even if you think you've got your armor covering every inch of you. It gets through.