Let's play "Really?!" with Sunnyvols
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
As I have learned from here - alcoholics classically call us unreasonable and selfish when we assert basic rights. Don't fall for it.
If you are caring for yourself in ways you feel are fair and reasonable, his response is quack quack quack.
Hugs!
w
If you are caring for yourself in ways you feel are fair and reasonable, his response is quack quack quack.
Hugs!
w
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
Thanks for sharing your experience, many who have wished their partners got sober erroneously think everything would be solved then... it helps me to remember alcohol is just the tip of the iceberg...
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wizard Land Downunder
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I shake my head at the hypocritical beliefs and behaviors of so many A's.
It seems that staggering around drunk in front of family and friends, getting into brawls, being caught drink driving, losing jobs, abusing partner and kids, and causing mayhem, chaos, pain and grief are NOT causes of shame, humiliation or insult to their partners or families.
However, should the partner tell anyone, eg family, friends, police, Doctor, therapist or minister, actually go to Alanon, leave him or tell him to go, they are causing him shame and humiliation.
As others here have already said, it is none of his business, and he is quacking, from fear of the future without you. That is his problem, his business! Instead of hassling you, he'd be better off working his butt off on recovery, but that ball is in his court, and you won't be returning serve.
God bless
It seems that staggering around drunk in front of family and friends, getting into brawls, being caught drink driving, losing jobs, abusing partner and kids, and causing mayhem, chaos, pain and grief are NOT causes of shame, humiliation or insult to their partners or families.
However, should the partner tell anyone, eg family, friends, police, Doctor, therapist or minister, actually go to Alanon, leave him or tell him to go, they are causing him shame and humiliation.
As others here have already said, it is none of his business, and he is quacking, from fear of the future without you. That is his problem, his business! Instead of hassling you, he'd be better off working his butt off on recovery, but that ball is in his court, and you won't be returning serve.
God bless
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Quebec
Posts: 2,708
Originally Posted by sunnyvols 
He can go on and on about how I have 'humiliated' him by telling people at church about his alcoholism and that we are separated
Please separate his feelings/needs from yours. You confided in trusted friends and informed an acquaintance of a very personal event because you chose to and perhaps felt the need to. Good for you.
He can stuff his humiliation where the sun don't shine.
Sorry. /rant off.
Originally Posted by sunnyvols
I can only take this to mean that AH thinks I am having an affair with Jack.
Originally Posted by sunnyvols
Is this just more quacking?
Originally Posted by sunnyvols
He calls me "unreasonable" and that I expect him to be perfect before I will take him back.
K, sorry, but this is a big trigger for me because I supported my XAH and his son for two+ years by stripping five nights a week, while he drank, snorted cocaine, pondered the meaning of life and criticized me left, right and center.
Bravo to you for making this move. I think you're right on track.
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
this is the place for you to vent! what i was struck by, was the similarity in what you said and what i feel about myself. i have always tried to take the high road with my behavior when it came to my ex and how i feel about him. i also have compassion for him and what the disease has done to him, and how great a role shame plays in this man's life. that is what is being triggered of course when he speaks of humiliation. would he deny that he is alcoholic? if not, then why classify this type of information-giving as humiliating? it's very sad.
are you quite certain that the hidden meaning behing his statement was that you are having an affair? i know it's not worth it to clarify, but i'm not sure if what he said does mean that.
it sounds as though you are doing the best you can in a difficult situation.
are you quite certain that the hidden meaning behing his statement was that you are having an affair? i know it's not worth it to clarify, but i'm not sure if what he said does mean that.
it sounds as though you are doing the best you can in a difficult situation.
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 512
I don't know many people who would consider gainful employment, respectful behavior, and sobriety unreasonable expectations from a husband.
I the same...almost verbatim! And his response??? No kidding was "really?" Too funny.
Don't beat yourself up over this nonsense. It is likely a strong possibility that others already know of his alcoholism, if not maybe they're dim. Let your AH think whatever the heck he wants. YOU know the truth.
I the same...almost verbatim! And his response??? No kidding was "really?" Too funny.
Don't beat yourself up over this nonsense. It is likely a strong possibility that others already know of his alcoholism, if not maybe they're dim. Let your AH think whatever the heck he wants. YOU know the truth.
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by Insulated
I don't know many people who would consider gainful employment, respectful behavior, and sobriety unreasonable expectations from a husband.
I the same...almost verbatim! And his response??? No kidding was "really?" Too funny.
Don't beat yourself up over this nonsense. It is likely a strong possibility that others already know of his alcoholism, if not maybe they're dim. Let your AH think whatever the heck he wants. YOU know the truth.
I the same...almost verbatim! And his response??? No kidding was "really?" Too funny.
Don't beat yourself up over this nonsense. It is likely a strong possibility that others already know of his alcoholism, if not maybe they're dim. Let your AH think whatever the heck he wants. YOU know the truth.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wizard Land Downunder
Posts: 2,615
From old post by Sunnyvols: (( There have been a lot of nights spent alone, several times getting barfed or peed on, bills not paid, lies, sleeping around. Feeling like I am going crazy! Please tell me whether I am being unrealistic by expecting him to get a job and stop taking my inventory. ))
He takes your inventory, and blames you for him feeling humiliated?
HELLO!!!! Is this the man who sits on his arse, makes NO financial contribution to support his family, is depleting YOUR retirement money, has cheated on you and happily lets his wife work 2 jobs?
He should be so red faced from shame, that he glows in the dark like a neon sign.
Being sober for 5 months seems to have taught him absolutely NOTHING, and he is no different without the drinking. Daffy Duck still quacks on and on.
Anything to keep you off balance, suits him, because he cannot and will not face the truth of himself and his behavior.
Meanwhile you are getting wiser and stronger, and that must scare and anger him, as he is stuck in the bog of his own making, too afraid to crawl out of it.
Stick to your guns girl, keep going on the path you have chosen to freedom from any more chaos and despair.
God bless
He takes your inventory, and blames you for him feeling humiliated?
HELLO!!!! Is this the man who sits on his arse, makes NO financial contribution to support his family, is depleting YOUR retirement money, has cheated on you and happily lets his wife work 2 jobs?
He should be so red faced from shame, that he glows in the dark like a neon sign.
Being sober for 5 months seems to have taught him absolutely NOTHING, and he is no different without the drinking. Daffy Duck still quacks on and on.
Anything to keep you off balance, suits him, because he cannot and will not face the truth of himself and his behavior.
Meanwhile you are getting wiser and stronger, and that must scare and anger him, as he is stuck in the bog of his own making, too afraid to crawl out of it.
Stick to your guns girl, keep going on the path you have chosen to freedom from any more chaos and despair.
God bless
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
So the reason you told Jack was not because you had this great need to share and were seeking out his support? It was instead that Jack couldn't mind his own business and after you told him, he told his children, and they made a big to-do about it, as if you and your daughters are some damsels in distress, and they are coming to the rescue, even when you have asked Jack to stay away? Sounds like a Boundary issue to me.
And when your husband, from whom you are separated but are talking about reconciliation with, got wind of the story of these annoying knights in shining armor, tells you that more people (his friend, no less) knowing some of his personal business adds to his feelings of humiliation, you feel that he does not have a right to feel humiliated? I would feel humiliation.
And when he texts you an ambiguous message about honesty and the children, instead of asking for clarification of his feelings, you assume that you can read his mind and that the message means he thinks you are having an extramarital affair? And then you become ANGRY at him for accusing you of this affair that you made up in your mindreading?
And for five months you have been stringing this man along, actively discussing reconciliation, but telling him that he must meet these requirements (basically be guaranteed that he will not relapse) and, therefore, putting ALL the weight of whether or not the marriage succeeds or fails, and the effects the inevitable divorce will have on the children, on HIS shoulders?
If you have decided then why are you leading him on? You apparently are not alcoholic, otherwise you would be able to see the amount of stress and fear this man must have.
I wonder this too. Own your side of the street.
And when your husband, from whom you are separated but are talking about reconciliation with, got wind of the story of these annoying knights in shining armor, tells you that more people (his friend, no less) knowing some of his personal business adds to his feelings of humiliation, you feel that he does not have a right to feel humiliated? I would feel humiliation.
And when he texts you an ambiguous message about honesty and the children, instead of asking for clarification of his feelings, you assume that you can read his mind and that the message means he thinks you are having an extramarital affair? And then you become ANGRY at him for accusing you of this affair that you made up in your mindreading?
And for five months you have been stringing this man along, actively discussing reconciliation, but telling him that he must meet these requirements (basically be guaranteed that he will not relapse) and, therefore, putting ALL the weight of whether or not the marriage succeeds or fails, and the effects the inevitable divorce will have on the children, on HIS shoulders?
If you have decided
that it is better for the kids to split up and be done with it if that it what needs to happen
Sometimes I wonder what I am waiting around for.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
sunny, Could it be that he really WASN'T accusing you of having an affair? Could that possibly be the reason he asked, "What's wrong?"
Perhaps it did need to be explained because he did not know you had interpreted this from his text message without him directly saying it. When I read the text message, I did not even think of anything remotely close to him accusing you of sleeping with Jack.
And could it possibly be he showed up early for the reasons he stated? To surprise you and the girls and see his children off to school?
If you hadn't gotten angry the day before, would it have been all right with you what he did this morning?
Perhaps he was acting as if nothing was wrong because he didn't know that you had interpreted his ambiguous text message as an accusation that you were sleeping with Jack, a man who annoys even ME, and I haven't even met him.
And now that he has told you that he was not implying you had sex with Jack, are you now going to argue that he is LYING and be mad about that? I'm willing to bet that he is now even more scared than he was yesterday, now that you have brought up the topic of you having sex with Jack.
as if that needed to be explained!!!
And could it possibly be he showed up early for the reasons he stated? To surprise you and the girls and see his children off to school?
If you hadn't gotten angry the day before, would it have been all right with you what he did this morning?
You are also acting as if nothing is wrong." His response? "Well, that's not exactly what I was implying...
And now that he has told you that he was not implying you had sex with Jack, are you now going to argue that he is LYING and be mad about that? I'm willing to bet that he is now even more scared than he was yesterday, now that you have brought up the topic of you having sex with Jack.
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
HI,
I am not sure why this stands out to me so much, but I am going to say it. THis man is making a play for you. I know you say that he does this kind of super0kind stuff, but if you are being accurate about the time frame, then this man is coming onto you. JMHO.
Your AH sounds jealous and embarrassed. I would be too, if I were him. BUT, that doesn't mean that you need to do anything about his feelings. They are his. He made his own mess. You have yourself and daughters to take care of. If he is jealous, too darm bad.
I am not sure why this stands out to me so much, but I am going to say it. THis man is making a play for you. I know you say that he does this kind of super0kind stuff, but if you are being accurate about the time frame, then this man is coming onto you. JMHO.
Your AH sounds jealous and embarrassed. I would be too, if I were him. BUT, that doesn't mean that you need to do anything about his feelings. They are his. He made his own mess. You have yourself and daughters to take care of. If he is jealous, too darm bad.
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
Getting a bit rough in here.........
I can tell when people I know well are insinuating something...such as whether my husband or boyfriend is implying that I am having an affair...and if that happens in the scenario described, I consider that abusive.
I don't care if maybe even that was what some guy was fantasizing, it still impugns my character and morals from someone who ought to know me better or who has no business making such comments, especially in a provocative manner.
And I CAN see the man most prone to such nonsense showing up early am ....as described, as a sick maneuver.
The point is: I am sorry that both these men acted in a way that made you uncomfortable....it is difficult to do, but by not accepting gifts that would help you reinforce your boundaries with them.....but what is done is past and should only serve as a lesson for he future, not something to beat up on myself or yourself on....I surely hope that Jack heard you, it doesn't sound like he is used to hearing folks! (I take it as a given that your husband is in the habit of disregarding things he doesn't want to hear!)
hugs (hope, unity, gratitude, serenity)
Live
I can tell when people I know well are insinuating something...such as whether my husband or boyfriend is implying that I am having an affair...and if that happens in the scenario described, I consider that abusive.
I don't care if maybe even that was what some guy was fantasizing, it still impugns my character and morals from someone who ought to know me better or who has no business making such comments, especially in a provocative manner.
And I CAN see the man most prone to such nonsense showing up early am ....as described, as a sick maneuver.
The point is: I am sorry that both these men acted in a way that made you uncomfortable....it is difficult to do, but by not accepting gifts that would help you reinforce your boundaries with them.....but what is done is past and should only serve as a lesson for he future, not something to beat up on myself or yourself on....I surely hope that Jack heard you, it doesn't sound like he is used to hearing folks! (I take it as a given that your husband is in the habit of disregarding things he doesn't want to hear!)
hugs (hope, unity, gratitude, serenity)
Live
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
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Sunny,
I don't think you even owe him listening to his explanations of his bad behavior. You are allowed to have whatever friends you want.
I struggle with how much to tell other people in the community about H's problem with alcohol and mental illness. On one hand, it's all true and factual, and I have seen the destructive nature of keeping secrets. On the other hand, it could hurt his business and his reputation if it gets out all over town, and that hurts my kids in terms of his ability to pay child support, and I don't wish to cause harm to him anyway.
I have said "We are separated. We are not able to agree on our standards for behavior and childrearing." It's true, it doesn't blame anybody...I don't know, it's the best I could come up with. But many, many people know the truth about our situation now, and it didn't come from me - it's because the truth always bears itself out, and his actions since our separation speak for themselves. I can't do anything to help him with that.
I don't think you even owe him listening to his explanations of his bad behavior. You are allowed to have whatever friends you want.
I struggle with how much to tell other people in the community about H's problem with alcohol and mental illness. On one hand, it's all true and factual, and I have seen the destructive nature of keeping secrets. On the other hand, it could hurt his business and his reputation if it gets out all over town, and that hurts my kids in terms of his ability to pay child support, and I don't wish to cause harm to him anyway.
I have said "We are separated. We are not able to agree on our standards for behavior and childrearing." It's true, it doesn't blame anybody...I don't know, it's the best I could come up with. But many, many people know the truth about our situation now, and it didn't come from me - it's because the truth always bears itself out, and his actions since our separation speak for themselves. I can't do anything to help him with that.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
sunny,
I hope you no longer feel berated. It was not my intent to make you feel badly; it was my intent to show another perspective, a perspective that has helped me in my life and my interpersonal relationships immensely. I have BEEN you and I have felt, thought, acted, and behaved EXACTLY as you related in your story for most of my life. But there is a different way, a way that will bring you the peace and serenity you crave.
First please try to understand, there is a very human (and very practical) reason why in A.A. and other 12-Step programs there is an anonymity statement, "Who you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here." That is also why we have anonymity on SR. There is a lot of shame around being an alcoholic and shame is part of the reason why it is so difficult to admit we are alcoholics. Shame prevents us from reaching out and getting the help we need. I agree, you need as much social support as your husband does in and through all of this. But there are appropriate people and places to discuss these very personal and painful topics with.
These feelings apply as much to your husband as anyone else. And I know that, as the loved ones who have tolerated the alcoholic BS for years, decades, and lifetimes, we AUTOMATICALLY assume we know what the alcoholic is doing, and we automatically react in ways that we have learned in a disease-based system. The very first thing I had to teach myself when I entered Recovery was, stop reacting. In ALL cases, stop reacting.
IMO, it doesn't matter what Jack's intentions were, what matters is (1) YOUR intentions and (2) YOUR boundaries. If you truly did not want and did not encourage Jack to come over and do what he did, then can you look back on it and see how much time and energy has been WASTED on something that neither you nor your husband nor your children even DID? Do you see it is how you and your husband and your children have REACTED to Jack and his boys' behavior that created your ANGER and the negativity and the discord and other bad feelings in your family that has ensued? Sunny, There is NO FAULT and there is NO ONE TO BLAME; but if you examine it objectively, that is, in terms of your own Recovery, you may see that if you had stronger Boundaries, you could have nipped this, and the resultant mess, in the bud?
What matters is your family's peace and serenity. You can feel justified in every thought, feeling, deed and word. You can get your feelings and actions validated by running them past other people at church, in school, and on SR. You can be "right" to everyone else on earth, but it seems to me all that does is justify old, alcoholic, patterns of thinking and behaving that get you no where. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
I hope you no longer feel berated. It was not my intent to make you feel badly; it was my intent to show another perspective, a perspective that has helped me in my life and my interpersonal relationships immensely. I have BEEN you and I have felt, thought, acted, and behaved EXACTLY as you related in your story for most of my life. But there is a different way, a way that will bring you the peace and serenity you crave.
First please try to understand, there is a very human (and very practical) reason why in A.A. and other 12-Step programs there is an anonymity statement, "Who you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here." That is also why we have anonymity on SR. There is a lot of shame around being an alcoholic and shame is part of the reason why it is so difficult to admit we are alcoholics. Shame prevents us from reaching out and getting the help we need. I agree, you need as much social support as your husband does in and through all of this. But there are appropriate people and places to discuss these very personal and painful topics with.
These feelings apply as much to your husband as anyone else. And I know that, as the loved ones who have tolerated the alcoholic BS for years, decades, and lifetimes, we AUTOMATICALLY assume we know what the alcoholic is doing, and we automatically react in ways that we have learned in a disease-based system. The very first thing I had to teach myself when I entered Recovery was, stop reacting. In ALL cases, stop reacting.
IMO, it doesn't matter what Jack's intentions were, what matters is (1) YOUR intentions and (2) YOUR boundaries. If you truly did not want and did not encourage Jack to come over and do what he did, then can you look back on it and see how much time and energy has been WASTED on something that neither you nor your husband nor your children even DID? Do you see it is how you and your husband and your children have REACTED to Jack and his boys' behavior that created your ANGER and the negativity and the discord and other bad feelings in your family that has ensued? Sunny, There is NO FAULT and there is NO ONE TO BLAME; but if you examine it objectively, that is, in terms of your own Recovery, you may see that if you had stronger Boundaries, you could have nipped this, and the resultant mess, in the bud?
What matters is your family's peace and serenity. You can feel justified in every thought, feeling, deed and word. You can get your feelings and actions validated by running them past other people at church, in school, and on SR. You can be "right" to everyone else on earth, but it seems to me all that does is justify old, alcoholic, patterns of thinking and behaving that get you no where. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
I think:
* it was an act of mind-reading to interpret a text message (yet i know we have ALL done this)
* it was inappropriate for jack to arrive laden with gifts (personally, i would have been offended)
* it is a great thing that sunny can have a discussion with her separated spouse, and ask for clarification or whatever else may be needed. no need to continually set up an antagonistic relationship.
* it was an act of mind-reading to interpret a text message (yet i know we have ALL done this)
* it was inappropriate for jack to arrive laden with gifts (personally, i would have been offended)
* it is a great thing that sunny can have a discussion with her separated spouse, and ask for clarification or whatever else may be needed. no need to continually set up an antagonistic relationship.
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