Live

I am often tactless, I want to admit that right up!
I tend to post what I think at the moment.
As to what is a helpful way to relate...I think of my counselor(s) I have had who have really helped me.
They have always been both kind and honest and employed a great deal of empathy, a willingness to see things through my eyes and never invalidating my feelings or thoughts yet, still able to teach in a constructive manner without alienating me.
FWIW

freya

The people who make rules about what others can say and how they can say it make those rules so that, if one is following the rules, it is impossible for one to say anything that they don't want to hear. -- Laurel Richardson

When people get their panties all in a bunch -- on a recovery site no less -- because someone dares to speak the truth to them (or to someone else -- because heavens knows people like this love "to protect" each other from all the meanies out there!), this is exactly what they are doing -- trying to set up rules that will prevent them from having to hear and deal with anything that they don't want to hear and have to deal with.

As far as I'm concerned -- and I do see this happen quite often here on SR -- this type of behavior is a definite indication that someone is not really looking for help (other than feel-good sympathy and enabling) or for recovery, so it's best for me -- just like in RL -- to simply move on to a more promising prospect.

Don't take it personally, wife! If anything, it's a pretty sure sign that whatever you said was right-on-target and hit a little too close to home.

freya

BTW, if someone is in denial and does not want -- on whatever level - to "hear" something, there is no way for anyone to say it that will make that person hear it. Haven't we all learned this already by "talking" to alcoholics??? As far as I can tell, a far-gone codie/martyr/victim is no easier to get through to than a far-gone drunk. Recovery really is for the people who want it, not the people who need it. That makes me sad sometimes, but there's nothing I can do to change it...or them.

KerBearz

No, transform, it does not mean that I am lying to them. It means that I have been a codie my entire life and I am sometimes not able to see it for what it is. It is helpful to me to have people in my life identify it and call me on it.

LaTeeDa

Thanks for saying exactly what I wanted to say.

This thread is all about trying to control others. That's one of the behaviors that got me into years of a really deep, ugly mess.

If you don't like something I say (be it the "tone" or the content) then feel free to ignore it and move on. Simple.

L

transformyself

I was going to respond again, but have already said what I need to and don't need to do it again. I feel like we were having a good discussion, but it's just turning into another Us vs. Them thing. Too bad.

CatsPajamas

There are so many good things that come from having a site like this where people from all over the world can share their dreams, fears, experience, strength and hope. One of the negatives is that we only see the words, we don't have the benefit of face to face with intonation, inflection and body language. Something that comes off as harsh on paper might not be so harsh in person.

It's always good for me to remember that each of us gets here on our own time schedule, and we are each in our place on the journey.

Some of us already had experience with a 12-step recover program before we ever got here, and we settled right in.
Some of us find help at meetings after learning about them here.
Some of us are more ready than others to make changes in our situation and circumstances.
Some of us are so stuck in our pain and denial that we are frozen and we can't move at all.
Some of us live in horrendous, abusive situations that require a different set of responses and actions to ensure our personal safety and the safety of our children.

My angel sponsor taught me a few important lessons. First, say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean. And, if I say something to someone one time, I'm communicating. If I say it again, I'm making sure I've been heard. If I say it AGAIN, most likely I'm trying to control the outcome, and I need to remember that I'm not in control of anyone else.

And finally, if someone really gets on your nerves here, simply put that person on ignore. It's the easiest way to NOT have them occupy space in your brain.

Morning Glory

There isn't one member on this recovery site that shares "my truth". I could always say someone else is wrong or in denial because they don't believe "my truth". Truth to one person is not truth to another.

Offering advice and experience is great. Expecting someone to follow it is controlling. Taking what you like and leaving the rest works both ways. If someone doesn't relate to my truth I can also leave the rest and move on or continue to offer suggestions without expectations. If something causes me to yell "Why are you allowing this to continue?" then I am having expectations that I have no control over. It's not easy to watch at times, but recovery has to come from within each person. They have to find the truth that sets them free and the time frame is out of our control. I am not responsible for anyone's recovery. I am ressponsible for my own recovery. Another person's recovery or lack of recovery doesn't belong to me.

coffeedrinker

The people who make rules about what others can say and how they can say it make those rules so that, if one is following the rules, it is impossible for one to say anything that they don't want to hear

really? suggesting that perhaps we try to speak with respect and kindness? (my suggestion, not everyone's i realize)

wow, this statement blows me away



I feel that my experience of being bashed emotionally or having my words twisted or being abandoned by the illness has left me with wounds that need healing.

this reminder can serve us all well. thank you for letting yourself be vulnerable and saying it, kassie

freya

A "suggestion" and a "rule" are 2 very different things; the quotation is referring to "rules," not "suggestions." I would provide definitions here, but I'm pretty sure that everyone who is literate enough to have read along in this thread thus far, including you, knows the difference. So, I guess that kinda raises the question of what you hope to gain by deliberately confusing the 2 ??????

When people whose feelings get hurt by a stiff breeze start getting all reactive and calling names and screeching like they've just been attacked, just because someone responds honestly to or raises questions about what he/she is seeing and hearing in that person's posts, that is (consciously or not) manipulative behavior designed to try to guilt the responder into silence or collusion and to pull on the heart-strings of any raging codependents in the near vicinity. This type of manipulation -- using guilt, need for acceptance, desire for approval, or even safety -- is one of the ways that the "rules" about who can say what, how, and to whom are established and enforced in dysfunctional systems.

As for kindness and respect, I am unable to find anywhere in this thread where anyone has said -- or even implied -- that unkindness and/or disrespect are ever acceptable. The issue would seem to be more along the lines of what constitutes "enabling" and whether or not enabling can ever be kind and/or respectful.

And as far as relativism goes -- well, in my experience, it only goes so far.

I might call a ball "blue" that 5 other people viewing the same uniformly-colored, uniformly-lit ball call "teal," but, if any one of us, under the exact same conditions, calls that same ball "red" then chances are pretty good either that that person has some type of vision problem; or does not know the common English language meaning of the linguistic symbol "red;" or is, for some reason yet to be determined, out to play head games with everybody.

...and, as we are in a forum comprised mostly of people whose lives have been affected by someone's alcoholism, it seems only prudent to me that we consider carefully the implications of how much relativism we want to subscribe to:

The alcoholic who has just downed the better part of a case of beer stammers to the door yelling to our 4 and 6 year old that he's ready to take them to soccer practice.

I say: "You're drunk. I'll take them."

He says: "I'm fine and I'm taking them."

...and I'm going to say: "Oh, of course, if you say you're fine, no problem!" because his "truth" (which he very well might believe with 100% of his being) is his perspective and absolutely equal to and as valid as mine or anyone else's, no matter how sane and/or sober anyone else may be and no matter how drunk and/or insane he is?????

Really????? Well, no, obviously I am not.....but it might actually be a good idea, a morally-defensible-under-the-law-of-absolute-relativism idea for someone to go along with that BS???????

Of course, he is 100% entitled to his perspective and to his "truth," and it is useless for me to try to change it or him. But that's a far cry from saying that it has equal weight in the Truth department...or even in the consensual reality of relatively sane people, or that I have to somehow "respect" it. What I have to respect is his right to have it even if it is BS -- but, when it is BS, I do not have to, nor can I ethically, respect it.

In fact, I would have to say that, as far as I can see, my subscribing to any kind of theory of absolute relativism around any alcoholism-affected, non-recovering person (alcoholic or friend or family member), is, as regards my own recovery and sanity, pretty close to suicidal.

Again, I guess I've missed the places where anyone has said that he/she expects his/her advice to be followed...or even appreciated. It seems to me that what people are kinda expecting is for others not to freak-out just because they don't like the advice, or the feedback, or the questions or whatever form a response happens to take.

....and actually, it seems to me like questions such as: "Why are you allowing this to continue?" (not "yelled", of course) or "What are you getting out of this?" are often sincere attempts at provoking self-awareness. Insightful questions can often lead to insightful answers that one has never considered before. And, if that's so terribly threatening to someone, well then, maybe it would be wise for that person to start his/her recovery journey by trying to figure out why that is instead of trying to blame his/her reaction on others by accusing them of being mean.

freya

GiveLove

True.

No one can control how what we say is received. My concern is not with individuals pointing out honest facts ("you have choices," "there's another way to look at this"), but with the lack of care with which that honesty is sometimes delivered.

At times there appears to be a lack of intuition on the part of some self-proclaimed "honest" posters. A small minority seem either completely unaware of, or completely indifferent to, the fact that they are dealing with someone who is not there yet, is new to recovery, and/or to whom the old timers' line "what are you getting out of this" might be terrifyingly confrontational.

To the moderators here, who have dealt with thousands of newbies coming through the door, it can be painfully clear when a respondent doesn't really care per se about the person being spoken to, but instead is intent on making a point. (Often indicated by indignance when the O.P. dares say that their feelings have been hurt. The truther has to explain away what they've said, why feelings SHOULDN'T have been hurt, dissecting a post into blue quote boxes to skillfully argue every point...)

When a respondent seems so intent on "winning the argument" that they cannot see the damage their unedited candor is causing, then the mods on this forum will take action, for everyone's sake.

For every person who finds the courage to post, there are dozens, perhaps hundreds of others who simply read, praying they'll find help, and if they perceive SR to be a hostile environment, we have effectively driven them away from a place where they could've found healing. It is these people we're concerned with too.

Just because it shouldn't hurt doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. SR is for everyone who needs help, not just for those with thick skins.

The best advice I ever received about how to be a good citizen here was this: Post with love or don't post at all, and keep the Ignore button handy.

greeteachday

I have a difficult time understanding the concept that saying something in a condescending manner and "calling someone out" (which translates to me as humiliating the person to make the poster feel superior) is being candid and honest. Likewise, i have always had a difficult time understanding why some think that being respectful, honest but compassionate is "sugar coating." Why can't the truth be told in a respectful and not confrontational manner? Although it may be a codependent trait to not want to hurt someone's feelings, I think in many situations it is also a codependent trait to persist in pushing and pushing because there is the same need to control the other codie as there was to control the addict or alcoholic.

JenT1968

all good points, I am never sure where I agree or disagree, I feel like a reed blowing in the wind: agreeing with each next poster in turn.

And it's not like I haven't "heard" the discussion before, it often ends with some of the blunt posters leaving the board for a while, as well as some of those who are less blunt, people think about stuff away from here, many come back.

forming, storming and norming with a constant flux of people would predict a cyclical occurrence of this, with different players each time.

But it generally gets to a point where elements of control appear to come into the arguments of both "sides" of the debate, there is an increasing use of non-neutral loaded adjectives to describe people and their motives, veiled finger pointing and questioning of other's recovery, palpable anger, storming off, wound nursing.

Given that this occurs with regularity, it probably needs to. It's not peculiar to this board, nor should the nature of this board preclude it. Maybe it's all valid, all true, I don't know. Sometimes I'm blunt, sometimes I'm not, sometimes I think through thoroughly what I'm going to say, sometimes it's written off the cuff, sometimes I am guilty of using a quick-fix short-hand al-anon recovery slogan to someone who has not been around that and therefore won't get much from it (I hated those slogans in the beginning, people would say them and they meant nothing to me), sometimes I am guilty of throwing in a "party-line" of recovery without thinking about it and what it really means, sometimes I read things that are not in a person's post, sometimes I get frustrated and that shows in my answers. Sometimes I come to the board angry, or upset, sometimes I want to rescue or feel better than, or debate semantics or?

Discussions like this allow me to reflect on why I'm here and what I say and its purpose. Really, for me, there is nothing altruistic about my motives. I am here because I need help and through engaging I move forward into less misery and more joy. I get that from everyone, including the ones that I occasionally think get on a recovery high-horse or that I want to drag into action: I understand that they are my reactions, and I get to think about that.

I hope those who do get scared away find help elsewhere, or come back later.

bookwyrm

I follow the 'Getting past Your Past' blog and today's post seemed so appropriate! Learning What We Need To Know Getting Past Your Past Wonder if Susan Elliot reads here...

Jazzman

The irony of this specific F&F forum subject matter and posters biases have been discussed before. I think this is a great healing discussion and it's refreshing to see that it can be discussed rationally and openly. I find it particularly fascinating when you consider long term members becoming MODs in the very forum they would be the most challenged to be impartial and objective. Not bashing the MODs, don't get me wrong, just pointing out another irony I see.

Another interesting observation I've made is I've noticed in the AA forum there is a lot more kind hearted calling out happening. Here there tends to be the opposite, quite predictably. I think my comments are made from a objective and impartial perspective?

JenT1968

LOL: just read that, rumbled! should we run a book on her pseudonym or would that be entirely inappropriate on a recovery from addictions website?

coffeedrinker

Exactly.

I'm not going to suggest that you purposely miscontrued what you quoted and commented about, but you first brought up people making "rules" about our language. I guess if I give you the benefit of the doubt, I'm not sure why you wrote that; what you meant. Of course I did not deliberately confuse the two; I was responding to your comment about us making up rules to only avail ourselves to what we wanna hear anyway.

I also want to point out the second part of the above quote. I don't think it helpful when you use an analogy that doesn't really correspond to the original situation, using exaggeration in order to make a point.
People don't get their feelings hurt by a "stiff breeze". They get their feelings hurt because something done or said to them triggers a pain, or a shame inside of them. Right or wrong, that's what happens, IMO.
In my case, I can said with 100% honesty, that when that happens, I don't get reactive "just because someone someone responds honestly or raises a question about...." I might get hurt because of the abrupt or ugly or abrasive way in which it is delivered. As for manipulative behavior designed to guilt the other party, please try and not say as fact, what your opinion might be. Sometimes people react. Sometimes people express a confusion or a hurt; that in itself does not mean they are being manipulative.

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful responses. This was a good thread.

LaTeeDa

I'm so glad you pointed this out. I was one of those people. I lurked here for a good six months before finding the courage to post. I had been stuck for years in a horrible marriage, whining to my friends and family about it. All the people I had to support me in real life were kind and gentle, and not very helpful. None of them had the courage to point out the ways I was lying to myself. When I found this place, it was like a whole new perspective on life. Much of the painful truth I had been denying, rationalizing, and justifying was laid bare before my eyes. This is why I kept (and still keep) coming back to this place. There is no way to know what may help some people and what may not. I prefer the naked truth, sometimes with a little sarcastic humor. (Thanks anvilhead!) Others prefer gentle nudges with lots of fluff. That's what makes this place so great. You can find what you need and ignore what you don't like. I had a therapist who was very blunt and to the point. I doubt some posters on this board would have gone back to her after the first session. She helped me turn my life around.

I was a member on another similar board for a while. There was so much enabling and justifying on that board, and when anyone dared to point out unhealthy behavior, the mods jumped in and silenced people because they were deemed as "hurting" the person who was already in pain. I no longer post there because that environment is unhealthy for me.

Sometimes I am blunt, sometimes more gentle, but the only time I have ever seen intentionally hurtful personal attacks here have been in reaction to something someone perceived as too blunt. There seems to be a double standard in that those type of unkind posts are excused because they are somehow justified.

L

coffeedrinker

Thanks for those reminders, La Tee Da.
We are different folks, who need different strokes.

I would suggest that that people in your life who were not helpful, simply did not know how to be.

Peace,