How we seek out mistreatment
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How we seek out mistreatment
Upon the reference of LaTeeDa and others about their appreciation of The Road Less Traveled, I thought I'd share some with you.
I will say I have some problems with the book, but there is a ton of great stuff, too.
The following is in reference to a woman who has taken back her abusive, philandering, gambling, alcoholic husband.
"Suddenly a strange idea begins to dawn; maybe this woman endures her husband's mistreatment, and even seeks it out, for the very pleasure of talking about it. But what would be the nature of such pleasure? THe therapist remembers the woman's self-righteousness. Could it be that the most important thing in the woman's life is to have a sense of moral superiority and that in order to maintain this sense she needs to be mistreated? The nature of the pattern now becomes clear. By allowing herself to be treated basely she can feel superior. Ultimately, she can even have the sadistic pleasure of seeing her husband beg and plead to return, and momentarily acknowldege her superiority from his humbled position, while she decides whether or not to magnanimously take him back. And in this moment she achieves her revenge. When such women are examined it is generally found that they were particularly humiliated as children. As a result, they seek revenge through their sense of moral superiority, which requires repeated humiliation and mistreatment. If the world is treating us well, we have no need to avenge ourselves on it. If seeking revenge is our goal in life, we will have to see to it that the world treats us badly in order to justify our goal. Masochists look on their submission to mistreatment as love, wheeas in fact it is a necessity in their never-ceasing search for revenge and it is basically motivated by hatred.
" The issue of masochism highlights still another very major misconception about love - that it is self-sacrifice. By virtue of this belief the prototypical masochist was enabled to see her tolerance of mistreatment as self-sacrifice and hence as love, and therefore did not have to acknowledge her hatred.
...Whenever we think of ourselves as doing something for someone else, we are in some way denying our own responsibility."
Oh, wow.
I was picked on endlessly as a child. I was tripped and called names and pushed and teased. Perhaps everyone was. I know it hurt me deeply. I took on my moral kindness as a badge of honor. No matter how mean they were, I was more nice as they were more mean. It made me better than them. It made me good while they were bad. It made the awfulness of being picked on okay (kind of). It was a way to make sense of it. No one protected me against all the meanies. I was powerless. It made school awful, often. I felt very alone and out of control. But I had the righteousness of martyrdom. I felt blameless and picked on for no reason. So while being so picked on made me feel unloved and unloveable, my own martyrdom was a way of counteracting my feelings of worthlessness by me telling myself that I was BETTER THAN all of them!
I think, as painful as it is to admit, I DO get a lot of "juice" from telling how "bad" he is to others. I get such a good feeling of validation from telling his "badness" and having people say how crummy it is and what a strong person I am to be dealing with it. I get attention. I get validation. I get to feel morally superior. The more detached I can be and compassionate about his situation the more "good" I feel. The more out of control he is, the more in control I feel. (At least I am keeping my cool. At least I am not berating him. At least I am not raising my voice. He is obviously the one causing the problems here.) Perhaps I get my self worth in comparison to his lack of his own self worth.
Even my spiritual development is unhealthy! <sigh> I know, I know. Its just human.
Hope that benefits you all, too.
I will say I have some problems with the book, but there is a ton of great stuff, too.
The following is in reference to a woman who has taken back her abusive, philandering, gambling, alcoholic husband.
"Suddenly a strange idea begins to dawn; maybe this woman endures her husband's mistreatment, and even seeks it out, for the very pleasure of talking about it. But what would be the nature of such pleasure? THe therapist remembers the woman's self-righteousness. Could it be that the most important thing in the woman's life is to have a sense of moral superiority and that in order to maintain this sense she needs to be mistreated? The nature of the pattern now becomes clear. By allowing herself to be treated basely she can feel superior. Ultimately, she can even have the sadistic pleasure of seeing her husband beg and plead to return, and momentarily acknowldege her superiority from his humbled position, while she decides whether or not to magnanimously take him back. And in this moment she achieves her revenge. When such women are examined it is generally found that they were particularly humiliated as children. As a result, they seek revenge through their sense of moral superiority, which requires repeated humiliation and mistreatment. If the world is treating us well, we have no need to avenge ourselves on it. If seeking revenge is our goal in life, we will have to see to it that the world treats us badly in order to justify our goal. Masochists look on their submission to mistreatment as love, wheeas in fact it is a necessity in their never-ceasing search for revenge and it is basically motivated by hatred.
" The issue of masochism highlights still another very major misconception about love - that it is self-sacrifice. By virtue of this belief the prototypical masochist was enabled to see her tolerance of mistreatment as self-sacrifice and hence as love, and therefore did not have to acknowledge her hatred.
...Whenever we think of ourselves as doing something for someone else, we are in some way denying our own responsibility."
Oh, wow.
I was picked on endlessly as a child. I was tripped and called names and pushed and teased. Perhaps everyone was. I know it hurt me deeply. I took on my moral kindness as a badge of honor. No matter how mean they were, I was more nice as they were more mean. It made me better than them. It made me good while they were bad. It made the awfulness of being picked on okay (kind of). It was a way to make sense of it. No one protected me against all the meanies. I was powerless. It made school awful, often. I felt very alone and out of control. But I had the righteousness of martyrdom. I felt blameless and picked on for no reason. So while being so picked on made me feel unloved and unloveable, my own martyrdom was a way of counteracting my feelings of worthlessness by me telling myself that I was BETTER THAN all of them!
I think, as painful as it is to admit, I DO get a lot of "juice" from telling how "bad" he is to others. I get such a good feeling of validation from telling his "badness" and having people say how crummy it is and what a strong person I am to be dealing with it. I get attention. I get validation. I get to feel morally superior. The more detached I can be and compassionate about his situation the more "good" I feel. The more out of control he is, the more in control I feel. (At least I am keeping my cool. At least I am not berating him. At least I am not raising my voice. He is obviously the one causing the problems here.) Perhaps I get my self worth in comparison to his lack of his own self worth.
Even my spiritual development is unhealthy! <sigh> I know, I know. Its just human.
Hope that benefits you all, too.
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Originally Posted by wifeofadrinker 
By allowing herself to be treated basely she can feel superior. Ultimately, she can even have the sadistic pleasure of seeing her husband beg and plead to return, and momentarily acknowldege her superiority from his humbled position, while she decides whether or not to magnanimously take him back. And in this moment she achieves her revenge.
Whenever my parents' paths separate, by whatever means, and should my mom and I live close again, I will always be aware of the bullied needing to bully in her personality. It's so easy to look "better" next to an alcoholic, but if she were trapped with "normal" people for long, you'd recognize the dysfunction in her too. I can recognize that she had a hard upbringing, but it's not negating the fact that her behavior is HURTING her relationship with her children now.
I'm really happy for you that you found this passage. I know I would appreciate this level of self-awareness in my mom.
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 444
Wow, wow, wow is right!!!
Struggling with exactly this right now. This makes so much sense. I identify with so many of the ACOA characteristics, but it the underlying cause just didn't seem to fit. There was some alcohol abuse/dependence -- but really overall my childhood was pretty normal. Except for ONE thing -- I was the "fat kid" and endured much cruelty for it. I have been at a normal weight for most of my adult life; and have focused on how that history probably affected my self-esteem. But this..... this is IT. I have to punish those that taunted me as a child.... by being better than them.
I never reacted to the teasing, I always withdrew, and cried, and plotted my revenge as a child. I aligned myself to Cinderella -- who was tormented by her stepmother and stepsisters, yet showed she was better than them by NOT punishing them and NOT extracting revenge. And someday my Prince Charming would come and see how beautiful I was and we would live happily ever after (well, that may be a whole separate issue - LOL).
No, how do I get out of this rut?
Struggling with exactly this right now. This makes so much sense. I identify with so many of the ACOA characteristics, but it the underlying cause just didn't seem to fit. There was some alcohol abuse/dependence -- but really overall my childhood was pretty normal. Except for ONE thing -- I was the "fat kid" and endured much cruelty for it. I have been at a normal weight for most of my adult life; and have focused on how that history probably affected my self-esteem. But this..... this is IT. I have to punish those that taunted me as a child.... by being better than them.
I never reacted to the teasing, I always withdrew, and cried, and plotted my revenge as a child. I aligned myself to Cinderella -- who was tormented by her stepmother and stepsisters, yet showed she was better than them by NOT punishing them and NOT extracting revenge. And someday my Prince Charming would come and see how beautiful I was and we would live happily ever after (well, that may be a whole separate issue - LOL).
No, how do I get out of this rut?
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Now, how do I get out of this rut?
HAHAHAHA!
If I knew that...
More and more and more awareness?
More thought before action and speech?
Why am I doing this?
Why am I wanting to say this?
What is my motivation?
That's the best I got.
HAHAHAHA!
If I knew that...
More and more and more awareness?
More thought before action and speech?
Why am I doing this?
Why am I wanting to say this?
What is my motivation?
That's the best I got.
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
Originally Posted by dothi
[COLOR="DarkRed"]...This really describes my codependent mom, who has been such a *victim*...
...revel in the glory of him being argued down a peg. Then she would swoop in, side against us, and be his savior. Thanks for dangling change in our faces.
Whenever my parents' paths separate, by whatever means, and should my mom and I live close again, I will always be aware of the bullied needing to bully in her personality. It's so easy to look "better" next to an alcoholic, but if she were trapped with "normal" people for long, you'd recognize the dysfunction in her too. I can recognize that she had a hard upbringing, but it's not negating the fact that her behavior is HURTING her relationship with her children now.
...revel in the glory of him being argued down a peg. Then she would swoop in, side against us, and be his savior. Thanks for dangling change in our faces.
Whenever my parents' paths separate, by whatever means, and should my mom and I live close again, I will always be aware of the bullied needing to bully in her personality. It's so easy to look "better" next to an alcoholic, but if she were trapped with "normal" people for long, you'd recognize the dysfunction in her too. I can recognize that she had a hard upbringing, but it's not negating the fact that her behavior is HURTING her relationship with her children now.
no more of that. but that line... 'the bullied needing to bully in her personality' that is SOOO her
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
I always unconciously chose men who were dysfunctional. As my codie mum would put it 'they needed saving'. Talk about reinforcing negative behaviour!
In truth, despite the difficulties, I did like to try to save them. Before the inevitable drain on myself and the realisation of how unhealthy it was to 'save' someone, I took my sacrifices to mean love.
I wound up feeling rejected by them when they couldn't see how much I had given to them to 'help' them. I didn't feel appreciated, I didn't believe they realised my love for them. I had given my all to my 'love' only to be shocked on the day they said they were ending it. I could never come to terms with that easily because I could only see how much of myself I had given and if I was giving so much, why wasn't it working??
I began to associate giving of my love with rejection and I guess that is were my fear of rejection comes from.
I understand my rejection fears now but I guess the missing link for me is to determine what in childhood moulded me to the person who would choose dysfunctional partners - not having my emotional needs met (ooo cold flush through my chest as I wrote that) yep - I think thats the one.
So back to examining my thought processes and beliefs once again for this...
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In truth, despite the difficulties, I did like to try to save them. Before the inevitable drain on myself and the realisation of how unhealthy it was to 'save' someone, I took my sacrifices to mean love.
I wound up feeling rejected by them when they couldn't see how much I had given to them to 'help' them. I didn't feel appreciated, I didn't believe they realised my love for them. I had given my all to my 'love' only to be shocked on the day they said they were ending it. I could never come to terms with that easily because I could only see how much of myself I had given and if I was giving so much, why wasn't it working??
I began to associate giving of my love with rejection and I guess that is were my fear of rejection comes from.
I understand my rejection fears now but I guess the missing link for me is to determine what in childhood moulded me to the person who would choose dysfunctional partners - not having my emotional needs met (ooo cold flush through my chest as I wrote that) yep - I think thats the one.
So back to examining my thought processes and beliefs once again for this...
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
Suddenly a strange idea begins to dawn; maybe this woman endures her husband's mistreatment, and even seeks it out, for the very pleasure of talking about it. But what would be the nature of such pleasure? THe therapist remembers the woman's self-righteousness. Could it be that the most important thing in the woman's life is to have a sense of moral superiority and that in order to maintain this sense she needs to be mistreated? The nature of the pattern now becomes clear. By allowing herself to be treated basely she can feel superior. Ultimately, she can even have the sadistic pleasure of seeing her husband beg and plead to return, and momentarily acknowldege her superiority from his humbled position, while she decides whether or not to magnanimously take him back. And in this moment she achieves her revenge. When such women are examined it is generally found that they were particularly humiliated as children. As a result, they seek revenge through their sense of moral superiority, which requires repeated humiliation and mistreatment. If the world is treating us well, we have no need to avenge ourselves on it. If seeking revenge is our goal in life, we will have to see to it that the world treats us badly in order to justify our goal. Masochists look on their submission to mistreatment as love, wheeas in fact it is a necessity in their never-ceasing search for revenge and it is basically motivated by hatred.
" The issue of masochism highlights still another very major misconception about love - that it is self-sacrifice. By virtue of this belief the prototypical masochist was enabled to see her tolerance of mistreatment as self-sacrifice and hence as love, and therefore did not have to acknowledge her hatred.
" The issue of masochism highlights still another very major misconception about love - that it is self-sacrifice. By virtue of this belief the prototypical masochist was enabled to see her tolerance of mistreatment as self-sacrifice and hence as love, and therefore did not have to acknowledge her hatred.
I've read the road less travelled, and some of it I like a lot. This: not so much, and I thought a lot about it after I first read it.
Whilst I acknowledge within myself that I can feel way more comfortable with people that have experienced similar things to me (depression, anxiety) and whether I am attracted to people that I view as "more flawed than me" in order that I don't look very flawed in comparison: certainly this forms part of my personaility and contributes to how I got where I am today. But this isn't the whole story, not by a long chalk. and the passage is a nice, neat, putting the blame squarely on the "volunteer".
A masochist, by definition, seeks out pain and humiliation and ENJOYS it. A person who is in, and even one who returns to, an abusive relationship isn't necessarily a masochist. A relationship where abuse occurs isn't just about abuse.
"she needs to be mistreated" to feed "pleasure of talking about it","Ultimately, she can even have the sadistic pleasure of seeing her husband beg and plead to return".
I realise I am taking this out of context and it will be very different for different people. But many, (most?) people don't talk about it at all for a very long time, they experience intense shame, intense fear, incredible confusion, anxiety, doubt, love, stockholm syndrome type bonding, they may feel self-righteous at times (many people do) but is it their primary motivation in life? they have children, homes, wider families, communities, religions, governments weaving a powerful pressure to STAY or RETURN. Being bullied or picked on or humiliated and trained to believe as a child that in order to express love you have to subjugate your own needs makes a person easy pickings for abusive people, so it's hardly surprising that many women (and men?) in abusive relationships were humiliated as children.
if this rings true for you personally and you can use this to your advantage, excellent. The danger with this, nice, neat, in a paperback, stumble-upon, explanation for a difficult to understand situation is that it leaks into popular culture and people apply it to others: "she enjoys being hit", "she needs to be hit so that she can feel good about herself": "so he's doing her a favour really" and I think that needs to be challenged.
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Originally Posted by JenT1968
But this isn't the whole story, not by a long chalk. and the passage is a nice, neat, putting the blame squarely on the "volunteer".
A masochist, by definition, seeks out pain and humiliation and ENJOYS it. A person who is in, and even one who returns to, an abusive relationship isn't necessarily a masochist. A relationship where abuse occurs isn't just about abuse.
A masochist, by definition, seeks out pain and humiliation and ENJOYS it. A person who is in, and even one who returns to, an abusive relationship isn't necessarily a masochist. A relationship where abuse occurs isn't just about abuse.
I choose to see it less as blame and more as responsibility. I take responsibility for the part of me that feels better about myself, since I can take the moral high ground. You're right it doesn't explain everything, but it does explain a part of my story - I get some "juice" from making him wrong and me feeling right.
I am always looking for ways I can own more of myself in the process. It takes the blame of him away and gives me more control.
I feel like I am still scrambling to take control over myself. Its a weird thing, on the surface, how I would tolerate his behavior. Last night, after a phone call with my AH, I journaled about the call. I found in his commucication:
* indirect criticsm
* passive aggressive communication
* denial
* silence (refusal to communicate)
* deflection
* projection
* sarcasm
* pessimism/powerlessness/hoplessness
* mixed messages
Just in one, maybe 20 minute, phone call.
When I look at that, I think, "What in the world am I doing?" As they say here, "Get your running shoes on!"
And yet, another part of me can't/won't believe it could be so (my own denial) that anyone could be so unable to communicate in a healthy way.
Another part of me just feels tired and doesn't want to think about leaving (inertia?).
Another part is sad and doesn't want to let go (fantasy thinking attachment).
So I am mired in my own mixed messages and denial. It seems SO obvious (on the one hand) this is DOOMED. And yet, here I sit, still in disbelief, taking no action.
I am a feminist. I am a strong leader. How can this be? How did I get here? Why can't I FIX this immediately?
I know, too, that my conciousness about this whole thing is new and I AM communicating differently (openly now) and things ARE changing (getting worse, but that's to be expected).
I know if I can find *MY* part in all this - my choices and the reasons for them - what I get out of it - I can take back control over my life.
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 478
So many good points here. It's nice to see it from all sides. 
I'm certainly a part of this group. Now I just need to figure out the best way to address the behavior instead of just labeling it or trying to understand it. (That's been my personal issue for a loooong time) I need to change it.
Thanks for the food for thought!
I'm certainly a part of this group. Now I just need to figure out the best way to address the behavior instead of just labeling it or trying to understand it. (That's been my personal issue for a loooong time) I need to change it.
Thanks for the food for thought!
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I have come to believe that blame is useless in my life. I was raised with the notion that there had to be blame. Because of that idea, if I couldn't find someone to pin the blame on for something, I resorted to blaming myself. There had to be blame.
But, whether I blame someone else or myself, the result is victimhood and helplessness. Nothing good comes from either of those. If I blame my husband for my marriage failing, where does that leave me? A sitting duck, just waiting for the next jerk to come along and victimize me again. No thanks.
Taking responsibility for the beliefs, behaviors, and thinking that (consciously or subconsciously) drew me into that kind of relationship, and kept me there, empowers me. Figuring out what the payoff was for me (and there is always a payoff) gives me the insight to go about getting my needs met in healthy, non-destructive ways.
Blame can feel good because it shifts the responsibility to others and "lets us off the hook," psychologically speaking. But taking responsibility is empowering. At least, I've found it to be.
L
But, whether I blame someone else or myself, the result is victimhood and helplessness. Nothing good comes from either of those. If I blame my husband for my marriage failing, where does that leave me? A sitting duck, just waiting for the next jerk to come along and victimize me again. No thanks.
Taking responsibility for the beliefs, behaviors, and thinking that (consciously or subconsciously) drew me into that kind of relationship, and kept me there, empowers me. Figuring out what the payoff was for me (and there is always a payoff) gives me the insight to go about getting my needs met in healthy, non-destructive ways.
Blame can feel good because it shifts the responsibility to others and "lets us off the hook," psychologically speaking. But taking responsibility is empowering. At least, I've found it to be.
L
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