Is it possible to be wrong?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 22
Is it possible to be wrong?
Has anyone ever heard of a situation where a partner fears that the SO has a problem with drinking, and then turned out to be wrong?
After a conversation last night with my partner, where I admitted to her that I felt hopeless about our relationship, that I had discovered that she has been drinking (a moderate amount of) whiskey every day after telling me she would stop drinking, I feel desperately confused and full of self-doubt.
She absolutely does not see where I am coming from on the alcohol issue. She absolutely does not believe that she is an alcoholic or that she has a problem with alcohol. She says she grew up with alcoholics, knows what an alcoholic looks like, and is not one herself. After telling me she would stop drinking, she went a little over two weeks without a drop, then decided that she missed the taste of whiskey in her afternoon coffee and decided that she could have that, and that she had enough control to not drink more than that. She says she experienced no withdrawal symptoms, is not dependent on alcohol, and can choose not to drink without it bothering her.
She also feels that her agreement to "stop drinking" in no way implied forever. That she has no desire to make that choice. She felt that in our last conversation (see previous posts), my problems were with "drunken behavior" and that she has eliminated that.
I asked her how I was supposed to ever overcome my suspicions when she has been hiding whiskey in her bedroom. (I first discovered an almost empty bottle a week ago Saturday. Last Sunday she bought another bottle. Yesterday she bought another.) She says she feels like "damned if you do, damned if you don't", as I had not managed to drop my "walls" in those two weeks that she was not drinking. That I didn't even acknowledge her efforts and did not say thank you.
(For the codependent record, I repeatedly said last night that I did not want to focus on her relationship with alcohol, that I did not want to control it, and that I hoped, for her sake, that what she believes is true. But that I needed help to heal, to rebuild my self esteem, to find ways to let go of my fear and anxiety, and to learn to speak my difficult truths rather than suppress them for fear of hurting or upsetting her.)
All that she tells me leaves me feeling very, very confused. Is it possible that I am wrong? Is it possible that I have made all of this up in my head? It is true that she is very functional. She has never had a DUI, or an arrest, or missed a day of work. She has never been irresponsible in that way. She never drinks her way through the day, and her pattern has long been to not drink until after dark.
What is true is that I have repeatedly voiced my issues with her drinking over the past three years. So my question then becomes, if it is so easy for her to choose not to drink, why wouldn't she give it up entirely and completely for the sake of the one she loves? Is this irrational of me?
I am in so much pain, and have no idea what to trust or what to believe.
I feel like contacting other friends and past relationship partners of hers to ask them if they have ever questioned her relationship with alcohol. She claims that it has never, ever come up in any other relationship.
What if I am wrong?
Thanks for any input you may have.
After a conversation last night with my partner, where I admitted to her that I felt hopeless about our relationship, that I had discovered that she has been drinking (a moderate amount of) whiskey every day after telling me she would stop drinking, I feel desperately confused and full of self-doubt.
She absolutely does not see where I am coming from on the alcohol issue. She absolutely does not believe that she is an alcoholic or that she has a problem with alcohol. She says she grew up with alcoholics, knows what an alcoholic looks like, and is not one herself. After telling me she would stop drinking, she went a little over two weeks without a drop, then decided that she missed the taste of whiskey in her afternoon coffee and decided that she could have that, and that she had enough control to not drink more than that. She says she experienced no withdrawal symptoms, is not dependent on alcohol, and can choose not to drink without it bothering her.
She also feels that her agreement to "stop drinking" in no way implied forever. That she has no desire to make that choice. She felt that in our last conversation (see previous posts), my problems were with "drunken behavior" and that she has eliminated that.
I asked her how I was supposed to ever overcome my suspicions when she has been hiding whiskey in her bedroom. (I first discovered an almost empty bottle a week ago Saturday. Last Sunday she bought another bottle. Yesterday she bought another.) She says she feels like "damned if you do, damned if you don't", as I had not managed to drop my "walls" in those two weeks that she was not drinking. That I didn't even acknowledge her efforts and did not say thank you.
(For the codependent record, I repeatedly said last night that I did not want to focus on her relationship with alcohol, that I did not want to control it, and that I hoped, for her sake, that what she believes is true. But that I needed help to heal, to rebuild my self esteem, to find ways to let go of my fear and anxiety, and to learn to speak my difficult truths rather than suppress them for fear of hurting or upsetting her.)
All that she tells me leaves me feeling very, very confused. Is it possible that I am wrong? Is it possible that I have made all of this up in my head? It is true that she is very functional. She has never had a DUI, or an arrest, or missed a day of work. She has never been irresponsible in that way. She never drinks her way through the day, and her pattern has long been to not drink until after dark.
What is true is that I have repeatedly voiced my issues with her drinking over the past three years. So my question then becomes, if it is so easy for her to choose not to drink, why wouldn't she give it up entirely and completely for the sake of the one she loves? Is this irrational of me?
I am in so much pain, and have no idea what to trust or what to believe.
I feel like contacting other friends and past relationship partners of hers to ask them if they have ever questioned her relationship with alcohol. She claims that it has never, ever come up in any other relationship.
What if I am wrong?
Thanks for any input you may have.
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,207
You are not wrong.
As I read your post, I see lots of blameshifting:
You didn't appreciate her efforts.
You didn't say thanks for not drinking.
You are imagining her problem with alcohol - she is in total control of her drinking.
Nobody else has ever thought she had a problem - you are the one who is crazy.
She never said she would stop forEVER. That was your ridiculous expectation. She just agreed not to drink. She never said for how long.
I am sorry, but I am pretty angry on your behalf. I think I am feeling triggered by all the wordgames. (I said I wouldn't drink, but you didn't say anything about shooting up heroin.)
Ugh...
You are not crazy. Go do something nice for yourself.
eta:
About the being in control and choosing not to drink:
Diagram this scenario:
Option A:
I am in control of my drinking.
I could stop. I know you want me to stop, but I don't care what you want. I choose to drink.
Option B:
I love you and you matter to me. What you want is important.
I drink because I can't stop drinking. And I don't want "help."
Does it really matter which is more accurate? Do you want to live with either option?
As I read your post, I see lots of blameshifting:
You didn't appreciate her efforts.
You didn't say thanks for not drinking.
You are imagining her problem with alcohol - she is in total control of her drinking.
Nobody else has ever thought she had a problem - you are the one who is crazy.
She never said she would stop forEVER. That was your ridiculous expectation. She just agreed not to drink. She never said for how long.
I am sorry, but I am pretty angry on your behalf. I think I am feeling triggered by all the wordgames. (I said I wouldn't drink, but you didn't say anything about shooting up heroin.)
Ugh...
You are not crazy. Go do something nice for yourself.
eta:
About the being in control and choosing not to drink:
Diagram this scenario:
Option A:
I am in control of my drinking.
I could stop. I know you want me to stop, but I don't care what you want. I choose to drink.
Option B:
I love you and you matter to me. What you want is important.
I drink because I can't stop drinking. And I don't want "help."
Does it really matter which is more accurate? Do you want to live with either option?
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 646
I am sorry you are suffering.
I think that the label "alcoholic" can distract me from helping myself.
For me the issue is more the behavior that I am seeing and sensing. It is trusting my gut that what I am perceiving is real and is true.
Then, I need to decide if that behavior is what I want to experience in my life. I learned to pay attention to the behavior more than listening to the words because the behavior doesn't lie.
I think that the label "alcoholic" can distract me from helping myself.
For me the issue is more the behavior that I am seeing and sensing. It is trusting my gut that what I am perceiving is real and is true.
Then, I need to decide if that behavior is what I want to experience in my life. I learned to pay attention to the behavior more than listening to the words because the behavior doesn't lie.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 53
Hi Phoenix!
I read your post and your feelings are so familiar to me. I have often wondered if my boyfriend actually is an alcoholic, or whether he just drinks more than I do. I wonder if that is a form of denial for ourselves.
He doesn't fit the profile of an *alcoholic*. However, a wise man once told me if there is a pattern to the drinking behavior, it means there is a problem of some level.
I have heard there's a distinction between problem drinking and alcoholism. So I suppose for me, I could live with someone who drank too much, IF alcholism were not a progressive disease. So for me, I'm uncomfortable with the amount/way my boyfriend drinks.
For you, I would suggest weighing YOUR level of comfort with it. It sounds as if she has pattern drinking and if she's not a full-blown alcoholic, if she doesn't get it under control, it soon will be.
At least this is what I've heard/learned.
I read your post and your feelings are so familiar to me. I have often wondered if my boyfriend actually is an alcoholic, or whether he just drinks more than I do. I wonder if that is a form of denial for ourselves.
He doesn't fit the profile of an *alcoholic*. However, a wise man once told me if there is a pattern to the drinking behavior, it means there is a problem of some level.
I have heard there's a distinction between problem drinking and alcoholism. So I suppose for me, I could live with someone who drank too much, IF alcholism were not a progressive disease. So for me, I'm uncomfortable with the amount/way my boyfriend drinks.
For you, I would suggest weighing YOUR level of comfort with it. It sounds as if she has pattern drinking and if she's not a full-blown alcoholic, if she doesn't get it under control, it soon will be.
At least this is what I've heard/learned.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 35
I asked myself a lot of the same questions regarding my ABF. He wasn't defensive about it as is the case with your GF. He just dodged the truth and acted loving and did nice things for me. He's a genius at it. I convinced myself that since he responded to my concerns a few years ago by (supposedly) cutting back, and after that he never acted drunk and I never saw him drink more than four glasses of wine a night, he was in control.
Then last week I got a call from him admitting that he had gotten stopped for DUI and spent the night in jail. At that point I could go one of two ways: I could interpret that disaster as just him having a little too much one night when the cops happened to be around (bad luck), which is the way he wanted to interpret it. Or could admit that he's out of control, has been out of control the whole time.
He's out of control. All the signs were there all along. I'd go over to his house and see empty six packs everywhere. He stopped inviting me to his house. When I told him six drinks a night was too many, he switched to drinking a couple of jumbo beers at the bar before coming out to my place and then having three glasses of wine to my one and carefully leaving that last glass in the bottle. So I'd think he's in control. So he'd think HE'S in control.
But a person in control wouldn't drive drunk knowing that if he got caught, it would cost him about $5,000--and he's unemployed. A person in control wouldn't drive drunk knowing I'd leave him if he ever got caught (I told him this two years ago.)
One thing that was helpful for me was keeping a journal. At the time it seemed obsessive and unhealthy to focus so much on his behavior, but now that I read back over it, there's no doubt in my mind. I'm like, wow, it was a lot worse than I thought now that I put everything together back to back. And, my god, how did I stand this for so long?
We're currently separated and no contact while we decide what to do. He has to deal with the legal fallout along with getting treatment and maintaining sobriety if he chooses to do so. I have to decide whether this relationship is worth it.
All tough choices. Good luck. Believe in yourself.
Then last week I got a call from him admitting that he had gotten stopped for DUI and spent the night in jail. At that point I could go one of two ways: I could interpret that disaster as just him having a little too much one night when the cops happened to be around (bad luck), which is the way he wanted to interpret it. Or could admit that he's out of control, has been out of control the whole time.
He's out of control. All the signs were there all along. I'd go over to his house and see empty six packs everywhere. He stopped inviting me to his house. When I told him six drinks a night was too many, he switched to drinking a couple of jumbo beers at the bar before coming out to my place and then having three glasses of wine to my one and carefully leaving that last glass in the bottle. So I'd think he's in control. So he'd think HE'S in control.
But a person in control wouldn't drive drunk knowing that if he got caught, it would cost him about $5,000--and he's unemployed. A person in control wouldn't drive drunk knowing I'd leave him if he ever got caught (I told him this two years ago.)
One thing that was helpful for me was keeping a journal. At the time it seemed obsessive and unhealthy to focus so much on his behavior, but now that I read back over it, there's no doubt in my mind. I'm like, wow, it was a lot worse than I thought now that I put everything together back to back. And, my god, how did I stand this for so long?
We're currently separated and no contact while we decide what to do. He has to deal with the legal fallout along with getting treatment and maintaining sobriety if he chooses to do so. I have to decide whether this relationship is worth it.
All tough choices. Good luck. Believe in yourself.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 53
Hi Phoenix!
I read your post and your feelings are so familiar to me. I have often wondered if my boyfriend actually is an alcoholic, or whether he just drinks more than I do, and so I worry and assume he is.
My boyfriend used to drink just about every night. Meaning, maybe one or two nights a month he'd go without. Once I realized this, I talked to him about it (that was about 4 months ago) since then, he has stopped drinking every night. For awhile he was drinking two or three times a week and keeping the amount of alcohol consumed to a pretty low amount. (for him anyway) One day he went and hung out with friends of his and came home plowed, vacant eyes, talking loud, all that.... and he continued to drink after he was home. He passed out in the chair at 7:00 PM. I thought to myself, NORMAL people do not DO THIS! So I talked with him again. Explained how I felt about it, told him it wasn't normal, told him I thought he had a problem. He agreed with me. He hasn't drank since that night (that was 7 days ago) however, he has a recurring social event to attend tomorrow and he always drinks on those nights. I will be interested to see if he does. I also assume he will.
The point in my rambling is this.... I don't know what extent my boyfriend's problem is, but I do know that most people don't drink in the manner he does. I go out with friends and drink, but once I'm home, I don't continue to drink. When I get a buzz, I don't continue to drink. I don't drink til I pass out. I go weeks without drinking. I don't drink just because everyone else is. If I go to a dinner party and everyone is having a glass of wine, if I'm not particularly in the mood, I don't take it just because it's there. My boyfriend is not that way. If it's offered, he's drinking it. At home if he drinks he'll ofen only have one or two but if he's with his friends, once he's drinking he keeps on and keeps on until he's DRUNK and continues after he's home.
I believe he has a big drinking problem, and I often believe he's an alcoholic. But I bargain and negotiate with myself over the level. I think it is a form of denial for ourselves. But on the other hand, there is a distinction between a problem-drinker and an alcoholic.... I guess.
What I'm trying to say here is that my boyfriend has a drinking problem
I read your post and your feelings are so familiar to me. I have often wondered if my boyfriend actually is an alcoholic, or whether he just drinks more than I do, and so I worry and assume he is.
My boyfriend used to drink just about every night. Meaning, maybe one or two nights a month he'd go without. Once I realized this, I talked to him about it (that was about 4 months ago) since then, he has stopped drinking every night. For awhile he was drinking two or three times a week and keeping the amount of alcohol consumed to a pretty low amount. (for him anyway) One day he went and hung out with friends of his and came home plowed, vacant eyes, talking loud, all that.... and he continued to drink after he was home. He passed out in the chair at 7:00 PM. I thought to myself, NORMAL people do not DO THIS! So I talked with him again. Explained how I felt about it, told him it wasn't normal, told him I thought he had a problem. He agreed with me. He hasn't drank since that night (that was 7 days ago) however, he has a recurring social event to attend tomorrow and he always drinks on those nights. I will be interested to see if he does. I also assume he will.
The point in my rambling is this.... I don't know what extent my boyfriend's problem is, but I do know that most people don't drink in the manner he does. I go out with friends and drink, but once I'm home, I don't continue to drink. When I get a buzz, I don't continue to drink. I don't drink til I pass out. I go weeks without drinking. I don't drink just because everyone else is. If I go to a dinner party and everyone is having a glass of wine, if I'm not particularly in the mood, I don't take it just because it's there. My boyfriend is not that way. If it's offered, he's drinking it. At home if he drinks he'll ofen only have one or two but if he's with his friends, once he's drinking he keeps on and keeps on until he's DRUNK and continues after he's home.
I believe he has a big drinking problem, and I often believe he's an alcoholic. But I bargain and negotiate with myself over the level. I think it is a form of denial for ourselves. But on the other hand, there is a distinction between a problem-drinker and an alcoholic.... I guess.
What I'm trying to say here is that my boyfriend has a drinking problem
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Oh gosh. Sure these things are possible but are they PROBABLE? Not likely. And whether or not it is possible doesn't really matter, does it? How long will you ride this rollercoaster? How long will you allow self-doubt, confusion, pain, lack of trust, not knowing, fear, hurt, etc to rule your life to the point where you think you are going crazy? This is no way to live your one precious life. Nothing an alcoholic does is rational. None of this is EASY for anyone; it is DISEASE. You did not cause it; you cannot control it; and you cannot cure it. What do you need to do to gain peace and serenity in your life?
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Quebec
Posts: 2,708
Dear phoenix, o lovely symbol of perpetual rebirth...how aptly you have chosen your name.
First off, I don't believe you're wrong.
I know it's tempting to give into the blameshifting that our partners throw at us. They paint such a logical and sometimes pretty picture. We think we can stop the pain we're feeling if only we just *believed* in the reality they are spinning. Sometimes we can fool ourselves into living in that world of See No Evil for a while...Unfortunately (well, actually, FORTUNATELY), it's too late for that. You already *know* you have a problem with your GF's drinking and that knowledge isn't going away. This is what matters...not what other people have thought about her drinking, not what society deems is acceptable in terms of drinking...it's what YOU think/feel about her drinking.
Stop for a minute and focus on that.
You have come to SR to learn to focus on yourself and to validate your own feelings. If you factor everyone else out of the equation, I think you'll find that you do have a problem with your GF's drinking.
What will you do about this, now that she has told you she doesn't plan on quitting?
if it is so easy for her to choose not to drink, why wouldn't she give it up entirely and completely for the sake of the one she loves?
Because your GF loves the alcohol more than she loves anything. Your existence, your presence and your love are not enough to *make* her quit. That decision lies solely in her hands.
First off, I don't believe you're wrong.
I know it's tempting to give into the blameshifting that our partners throw at us. They paint such a logical and sometimes pretty picture. We think we can stop the pain we're feeling if only we just *believed* in the reality they are spinning. Sometimes we can fool ourselves into living in that world of See No Evil for a while...Unfortunately (well, actually, FORTUNATELY), it's too late for that. You already *know* you have a problem with your GF's drinking and that knowledge isn't going away. This is what matters...not what other people have thought about her drinking, not what society deems is acceptable in terms of drinking...it's what YOU think/feel about her drinking.
Stop for a minute and focus on that.
You have come to SR to learn to focus on yourself and to validate your own feelings. If you factor everyone else out of the equation, I think you'll find that you do have a problem with your GF's drinking.
What will you do about this, now that she has told you she doesn't plan on quitting?
if it is so easy for her to choose not to drink, why wouldn't she give it up entirely and completely for the sake of the one she loves?
Because your GF loves the alcohol more than she loves anything. Your existence, your presence and your love are not enough to *make* her quit. That decision lies solely in her hands.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6
not wrong, not crazy
Hi, this is my very first post - I was reading the friends & family forum with the intention of registering to post at some point and the very first thread I read makes me want to shout YES!
You're not wrong, I'm not wrong...I have been dealing with an alcoholic husband who hides bourbon for FIVE YEARS and just this morning, after being lied to again last night, finally set some boundaries. What a cycle we're stuck in. He is a loving, affectionate, sensitive MASTER MANIPULATOR who constantly makes me feel like I'm the one with the problem, that if I just stop looking for it, if I just get over it, if I just ignore how he is affected physically and emotionally, everything will be just FINE. Never mind the fact that he almost died in August from a BAC of .405, never mind that last month he had a minor accident turned hit & run that he doesn't remember (how he escaped a sobriety test is beyond me) with his 8 yr old son in the car, never mind the fact that his 12 year old daughter doesn't want to be around him and his 8 year old is a disrespectful, fit-throwing little boy, never mind that his older brother pounds down the whiskey to the point of intoxication every day, never mind that his father, who passed away in Nov, had listed on his death certificate "alcohol abuse" as a secondary cause and never mind that the hospital staff, while my FIL was lying there sedated on a respirator, pointed out to my AH that his father evidenced physical signs of cirrhosis.
Because all that is NORMAL and it is ME that has the problem. If only I could just let it all go while he slowly kills himself, we would have a fantastic relationship. If he acts drunk and I call him on it, he pouts or gets mad that I am not trusting him - then I find it later. If I find it later, he gets mad that I went looking. He has made promise after promise after promise and has abused my trust every time...and don't get me wrong, I know I have let him do it, let our family suffer, because of course I WANT to believe him when he says he isn't going to hide it from me and lie to my face and act like I'VE done something wrong when I suspect he's lying, which he invariably is.
His self-esteem is so poor and at the same time he is incredibly self-centered. He wants constant reassurance that I'm not going to leave him, that I love him, that I won't give up on him...and then he abuses my trust again. He blames all his problems on other people, but at the same time calls himself names, seemingly just to get me to assure him he's not a loser or an idiot, that he IS a good husband and father, when in reality, most of the time lately, he's not.
And this is not my husband, my soulmate and best friend for the past 20 years. He can't see how alcohol has changed him, has changed US. And he doesn't want to stop. He doesn't want to. He knows he NEEDS to, and believe me, that's progress, but he doesn't want to.
So I finally got the courage this morning to tell him that I need a break. I didn't kick him out because he was leaving anyway - he is a regional sales mgr and travels 3 weeks out of every month, but I said that I didn't want to talk to him during this trip, that when he comes back I will not sleep in the same room with him, that he needs to make a decision. He handled it better than I thought - our relationship has been such that we talk all the time on the phone, we hang out together all the time, we've been best friends for 20 years. So I'm hoping that this will do something, ANYTHING, but if it doesn't, I guess I have to accept that I've lost him.
I've finally convinced myself that I can't love him enough to make him stop, and he can't love ME enough to stop, that he has to stop because he loves HIMSELF enough. I don't know if that's possible anymore. My whole marriage feels like a lie and I have 3 kids to take care of. My heart is breaking but I'm actually a little relieved to have finally put some emotional distance between us - we've been on this roller coaster of extreme highs and lows for so long now.
The second poster on the thread basically said what I've been saying to him for such a long time now - "either you can stop and you won't, or you can't stop. Both are big problems." I think my husband can't stop, but isn't ready to say life is worth more than this slow death.
Journaling is a great idea - I kept one for over a year (got away from it in recent months) and when you are full of self-doubt - because you do feel like you're on an island sometimes, things get so turned around, such a mind game it all is - there's nothing more confirming than reading through and reminding yourself of all that has happened. We want to forget because it's painful and shameful, and they don't want to remember because they're in denial. I went through my journal once and documented all the times in that year that he hid alcohol and lied to me, just to prove to him how bad it had gotten. It worked for about five minutes for him, but at least for me I got a good dose of reality too.
Anyway, I'm so relieved to have found this place so I don't feel alone.
You're not wrong, I'm not wrong...I have been dealing with an alcoholic husband who hides bourbon for FIVE YEARS and just this morning, after being lied to again last night, finally set some boundaries. What a cycle we're stuck in. He is a loving, affectionate, sensitive MASTER MANIPULATOR who constantly makes me feel like I'm the one with the problem, that if I just stop looking for it, if I just get over it, if I just ignore how he is affected physically and emotionally, everything will be just FINE. Never mind the fact that he almost died in August from a BAC of .405, never mind that last month he had a minor accident turned hit & run that he doesn't remember (how he escaped a sobriety test is beyond me) with his 8 yr old son in the car, never mind the fact that his 12 year old daughter doesn't want to be around him and his 8 year old is a disrespectful, fit-throwing little boy, never mind that his older brother pounds down the whiskey to the point of intoxication every day, never mind that his father, who passed away in Nov, had listed on his death certificate "alcohol abuse" as a secondary cause and never mind that the hospital staff, while my FIL was lying there sedated on a respirator, pointed out to my AH that his father evidenced physical signs of cirrhosis.
Because all that is NORMAL and it is ME that has the problem. If only I could just let it all go while he slowly kills himself, we would have a fantastic relationship. If he acts drunk and I call him on it, he pouts or gets mad that I am not trusting him - then I find it later. If I find it later, he gets mad that I went looking. He has made promise after promise after promise and has abused my trust every time...and don't get me wrong, I know I have let him do it, let our family suffer, because of course I WANT to believe him when he says he isn't going to hide it from me and lie to my face and act like I'VE done something wrong when I suspect he's lying, which he invariably is.
His self-esteem is so poor and at the same time he is incredibly self-centered. He wants constant reassurance that I'm not going to leave him, that I love him, that I won't give up on him...and then he abuses my trust again. He blames all his problems on other people, but at the same time calls himself names, seemingly just to get me to assure him he's not a loser or an idiot, that he IS a good husband and father, when in reality, most of the time lately, he's not.
And this is not my husband, my soulmate and best friend for the past 20 years. He can't see how alcohol has changed him, has changed US. And he doesn't want to stop. He doesn't want to. He knows he NEEDS to, and believe me, that's progress, but he doesn't want to.
So I finally got the courage this morning to tell him that I need a break. I didn't kick him out because he was leaving anyway - he is a regional sales mgr and travels 3 weeks out of every month, but I said that I didn't want to talk to him during this trip, that when he comes back I will not sleep in the same room with him, that he needs to make a decision. He handled it better than I thought - our relationship has been such that we talk all the time on the phone, we hang out together all the time, we've been best friends for 20 years. So I'm hoping that this will do something, ANYTHING, but if it doesn't, I guess I have to accept that I've lost him.
I've finally convinced myself that I can't love him enough to make him stop, and he can't love ME enough to stop, that he has to stop because he loves HIMSELF enough. I don't know if that's possible anymore. My whole marriage feels like a lie and I have 3 kids to take care of. My heart is breaking but I'm actually a little relieved to have finally put some emotional distance between us - we've been on this roller coaster of extreme highs and lows for so long now.
The second poster on the thread basically said what I've been saying to him for such a long time now - "either you can stop and you won't, or you can't stop. Both are big problems." I think my husband can't stop, but isn't ready to say life is worth more than this slow death.
Journaling is a great idea - I kept one for over a year (got away from it in recent months) and when you are full of self-doubt - because you do feel like you're on an island sometimes, things get so turned around, such a mind game it all is - there's nothing more confirming than reading through and reminding yourself of all that has happened. We want to forget because it's painful and shameful, and they don't want to remember because they're in denial. I went through my journal once and documented all the times in that year that he hid alcohol and lied to me, just to prove to him how bad it had gotten. It worked for about five minutes for him, but at least for me I got a good dose of reality too.
Anyway, I'm so relieved to have found this place so I don't feel alone.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 22
Thank you everyone for your messages of empathy, support and encouragement. I am very grateful for this community, for the helping hands and generous hearts.
I have to pull myself together right this second, as I am at work and can't sit here weeping for the rest of the day! But I wanted to be sure and thank you all.
I'll post again soon...
Feel free to keep bombarding me with the words that I so desperately need to hear right now!
In gratitude....
I have to pull myself together right this second, as I am at work and can't sit here weeping for the rest of the day! But I wanted to be sure and thank you all.
I'll post again soon...
Feel free to keep bombarding me with the words that I so desperately need to hear right now!
In gratitude....
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
It's very easy for our brains to make the connection between alcohol consumption and unacceptable behavior. We see it as a cause and effect, which it likely is, but then we assume that removing the cause will eliminate the effect. We just know that if the alcoholic would stop consuming alcohol, the problem would be solved. Unfortunately, they don't see it that way. They find all sorts of ways to convince us (and themselves) that alcohol is not the problem.
For this reason, it is very important to consider your own boundaries around behavior, not alcohol consumption. Trying to set boundaries around how much or how often they drink is frustrating and pointless. What behaviors are unacceptable? What will you do if they persist?
L
For this reason, it is very important to consider your own boundaries around behavior, not alcohol consumption. Trying to set boundaries around how much or how often they drink is frustrating and pointless. What behaviors are unacceptable? What will you do if they persist?
L
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
She absolutely does not see where I am coming from on the alcohol issue.
She absolutely does not believe that she is an alcoholic or that she has a problem with alcohol.
She says she grew up with alcoholics, knows what an alcoholic looks like, and is not one herself.
After telling me she would stop drinking, she went a little over two weeks without a drop, then decided that she missed the taste of whiskey in her afternoon coffee and decided that she could have that, and that she had enough control to not drink more than that.
She says she experienced no withdrawal symptoms, is not dependent on alcohol, and can choose not to drink without it bothering her.
What I read in your first post is CLASSIC
TEXTBOOK
borderline
STEREOTYPICAL
alcoholic thinking and behavior.
It's all about the manipulation
nd that was some twisty-talkin
to get to the place where YOU
feel like YOU
did something wrong.
Now maybe it's time to act.
I think you're living the results of talk.
But I want to make sure you understand
I didn't get what I quoted or commented
out of some book
I lived it.
YOU are living it.
You are not alone, hon.
If that's all I can offer for now
then I offer it.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 347
I occassionaly have my own doubt about defining my AH as an alcoholic because he makes such a good case for himself. His drinking of course is my fault - if I were just a better wife, and would quit complaining, he wouldn't have to do it. Forget the fact that he drank before her new me, was forced into rehab by his emplyer before he new me, started drinking again before he new me...started - stopped - started etc. Sometimes his ability to turn everything into my fault: If I'd just stop complaining, if I didn't cut his legs out from under him w/ the kids, if I would just......you name it....then he wouldn't drink, or call me names, or push me etc. As a rational and intelligent woman, I know the truth....I know he has a problem, I have no doubts.....but the emotional side of me struggles. In truth I think we all know when there is a problem, we just hide as long as we can, and then when we face it...we have doubts etc. Believe in yourself and believe your reality, your thoughts...because they are truth.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
stella, thanks!! great post
and great thread...
ah, the alternative reality...
welcome to where the trip back to sanity starts!
all of what you lived and are living is real. very real.
if others dont want to see it.. ok... you CAN see it, and you are NOT an addict... you are truly blessed.
after i left xabf i got another bf... he drank too much once... i told him i wouldnt drink for a while anymore.... he said he wouldnt either
and that was the end of it .. besides the odd glass of wine once in a while.
the point it was never something to talk about the way it is with alcoholics... it isn't an issue...if for some reason i got to avoid drinking a month or a year or 10 it doesn't matter
it's not a "topic"
and yes even if they truly are alcoholics...its easier to feel compassion...but if it truly has been a decision and they have always been able to put the beer down... wow. it would be even worse...... for me.. i have to stay as away as possible...
if you hear a tic tic tic, run away, maybe it's a clock, maybe its a ticking bomb, but do you really want to hang around to find out?
and great thread...
ah, the alternative reality...
welcome to where the trip back to sanity starts!
all of what you lived and are living is real. very real.
if others dont want to see it.. ok... you CAN see it, and you are NOT an addict... you are truly blessed.
after i left xabf i got another bf... he drank too much once... i told him i wouldnt drink for a while anymore.... he said he wouldnt either
and that was the end of it .. besides the odd glass of wine once in a while.
the point it was never something to talk about the way it is with alcoholics... it isn't an issue...if for some reason i got to avoid drinking a month or a year or 10 it doesn't matter
it's not a "topic"
and yes even if they truly are alcoholics...its easier to feel compassion...but if it truly has been a decision and they have always been able to put the beer down... wow. it would be even worse...... for me.. i have to stay as away as possible...
if you hear a tic tic tic, run away, maybe it's a clock, maybe its a ticking bomb, but do you really want to hang around to find out?
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
hijack:
Welcome agrace!
at the bottom right corner is a thanks button. click onto that button and your name appears in a box below the post as a thanks. (may have to wait until you have a certain # of posts?)
Why not copy and paste your first post and start a new thread to introduce yourself to your new family?
Now back to you phoenix..((hugs))
Welcome agrace!
at the bottom right corner is a thanks button. click onto that button and your name appears in a box below the post as a thanks. (may have to wait until you have a certain # of posts?)
Why not copy and paste your first post and start a new thread to introduce yourself to your new family?
Now back to you phoenix..((hugs))
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
phoenix,
i am from an alcoholic family system. i have the radar for it, i believe, just as some people do for molesters, some for homosexuals (i can't tell! people think i'm so weird)
so if i EVER get that feeling that someone is alcoholic, i never question whether or not i'm right. it's just my reality. and if the discussion comes up, i don't get into debates about it with them (because i know they will not agree), i just say that i will tell them what i see IF THEY WANT ME TO, but also that sometimes it is intangible, a "feeling".
you have this sense about your girlfriend FOR A REASON. as far as i'm concerned, that's enough.
now, could you be wrong? ok, sure you could. but the fact is that for you it IS a problem, you have told her this, she has stated that she could go drink-less if she chose to, but she will not? she just put that whiskey at a level of importance higher than you, imo.
there are many, many different "kinds" of alcoholics. my ex-husband actually drank rarely. he would drink socially sometimes, he would go months w/out any drinking, then there would be the binge episode. that was difficult to manage, so then he switched to grass. but even when there was no mood-altering going on, it was really the person he was....or wasn't that caused my love to dry up. when he wasn't drinking he was just a dry drunk.
you know, there are a number of questionaires - you can find one online - to determine if alcohol is a problem. perhaps you would get more peace of mind by filling one out.
agrace,
welcome. i hope you find the help here than many of us do.
i am from an alcoholic family system. i have the radar for it, i believe, just as some people do for molesters, some for homosexuals (i can't tell! people think i'm so weird)
so if i EVER get that feeling that someone is alcoholic, i never question whether or not i'm right. it's just my reality. and if the discussion comes up, i don't get into debates about it with them (because i know they will not agree), i just say that i will tell them what i see IF THEY WANT ME TO, but also that sometimes it is intangible, a "feeling".
you have this sense about your girlfriend FOR A REASON. as far as i'm concerned, that's enough.
now, could you be wrong? ok, sure you could. but the fact is that for you it IS a problem, you have told her this, she has stated that she could go drink-less if she chose to, but she will not? she just put that whiskey at a level of importance higher than you, imo.
there are many, many different "kinds" of alcoholics. my ex-husband actually drank rarely. he would drink socially sometimes, he would go months w/out any drinking, then there would be the binge episode. that was difficult to manage, so then he switched to grass. but even when there was no mood-altering going on, it was really the person he was....or wasn't that caused my love to dry up. when he wasn't drinking he was just a dry drunk.
you know, there are a number of questionaires - you can find one online - to determine if alcohol is a problem. perhaps you would get more peace of mind by filling one out.
agrace,
welcome. i hope you find the help here than many of us do.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
I am SO there with you.
Is my AH truly an alcoholic or just an alcohol "abuser"?
I have no idea.
How much does he really drink?
No idea. He drinks in secret and never seems drunk.
How much does it effect his personality?
No idea. He is generally funny and kind and attentive.
Nonetheless, I am realizing it doesn't matter.
He has been lying about drinking.
He has been drinking to soothe his depression.
He will not get help.
He will not communicate about it.
He is ANGRY and DEFENSIVE and FULL OF B.S. when I acknowledge his drinking.
He said he'd stop, then changed his mind and is drinking again.
IMHO, anyone THAT defensive and angry about something has a problem.
He is SERIOUSLY angry and defensive.
SO, all that put together tells me its a problem - for me.
He may never think its a problem.
Is my AH truly an alcoholic or just an alcohol "abuser"?
I have no idea.
How much does he really drink?
No idea. He drinks in secret and never seems drunk.
How much does it effect his personality?
No idea. He is generally funny and kind and attentive.
Nonetheless, I am realizing it doesn't matter.
He has been lying about drinking.
He has been drinking to soothe his depression.
He will not get help.
He will not communicate about it.
He is ANGRY and DEFENSIVE and FULL OF B.S. when I acknowledge his drinking.
He said he'd stop, then changed his mind and is drinking again.
IMHO, anyone THAT defensive and angry about something has a problem.
He is SERIOUSLY angry and defensive.
SO, all that put together tells me its a problem - for me.
He may never think its a problem.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
All that she tells me leaves me feeling very, very confused. Is it possible that I am wrong? Is it possible that I have made all of this up in my head?
I think people get hung up on what we CALL it ("alcoholism") and how we are labeled ("alcoholic"). But the point is not what we call it but whether or not they see and acknowledge that their drinking is a problem? They pick words and labels apart so that they don't apply to them, and they USE words to manipulate. Both ways are a form of lying. They lie to themselves and they lie to others. And the longer they drink, the worse it gets. If she can't even stop lying to herself, do you think she will ever start to get sober?
The question we, as enablers and codependents and just plain loved-ones have to ask is, how long do I want to live with a liar, be manipulated by lies, and be influenced and affected by all the sickness that goes with it? How long do I want to wait until my life is at stake? How long do I want to wait until the pain, the fear, or the madness have COMPLETELY engulfed my self, my health, and my truth? For me, the answer is not one second. For you, Phoenix, the madness has begun.
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