Lotus2009

I have been reading bits and pieces in the book "Why does he do that", which deals with abusive men. I know members here have pointed out and the book has confirmed that alcoholism and abuse are two seperate issues and that an alcoholic who gets treated for alcoholism will not necessarily stop his/ her abusive behaviors. But I am still somewhat struggling with that notion. The only time my AH has displayed any type of abusive behavior was when drunk... never when he was sober. So, I feel like the two go hand in hand. Maybe it's because I haven't been close to other alcoholics and thus I now believe that every alcoholic behaves like my AH when drunk? But wouldn't you say that in general alcoholics when drunk become self-centered, manipulative, dishonest, demanding, and let their emotions simply take control??? hm... or maybe I should ask: how do your A's behave when drunk?

I have started counseling and my counselor is focusing solely on the abusive part of my marriage right now and not addressing any other issues. I guess I'm not really sure if I would label AH an abuser ... maybe it's because my definition of an abuser is someone that is more extreme (I'm not saying he doesn't have any issues that he needs to work on, but more that he also has a loving, kind vulnerable side to him when sober), maybe it's because the word sounds so harsh, like he is evil (which he is not - he is behaving as he was conditioned to behave during his childhood... he is acting the only way he knows how to act - I'm aware that this might sound like I'm making excuses for him, but that's how I see it).

Any feedback?

barb dwyer

Hi -

I'm not a counsellor or anything
but I wanted to say that
if there's ANY type of abuse going on
in your relationship right now -

if I *were* a counselor-
*I* would be focusing on that aspect as well.
It's only logical.

For the simple reason that
the presence of abuse of any kind
whether alcohol is involved at all or not....

makes the situation automatically
a dangerous one.
Period.
Not 'potentially' dangerous.
Flat out no way around it dangerous.
It is not possible to be a 'little' abusive
any more than it is to be a 'little' pregnant.

Good for you going to counseling!
That's wonderful and I'm glad for you.

Why not mention this to your counselor next time you go?
Maybe even print out this post and read it to them when you go.
Then you cna work out a way that doesn't make you uncomfortable to talk about it.

LaTeeDa

Abuse doesn't make him an evil person. (See the compassion for alcoholics thread.) He's a flawed human being, just like the rest of us.

The difference here is that his behaviors are dangerous. You are allowed to protect yourself from dangerous behavior without labeling someone evil. Your responsibility to yourself is paramount. You can maintain your compassion for him if you wish, but please do it from a safe distance.

His behavior is his to own and he will have to work that out with his higher power. Whether it's his alcoholism, or his abusive behavior. Right now, it's your job to take care of you.

L

Lotus2009

Thank you both for your fast response...

You are right Barb... If I were a counselor, I would do the same thing ... address the abuse...

I have, however, gotten to a point where I feel safe... I do not accept any type of abusive behavior from him anymore and make that pretty clear. As soon as there is any type of name calling, blaming, etc. I will leave the conversation, room or house. Our bedroom is my safe haven... and I do lock the door when he is drinking! Having said that I do understand why my counselor is focusing on the abuse and I do know that it's important that I talk about what has happened and work on myself. Thanks for the idea of printing out my post... I will address this issue at my next session.

LaTeeDa - "Abuse doesn't make him an evil person. (See the compassion for alcoholics thread.) He's a flawed human being, just like the rest of us." Yes I think that's where my problem lies... I think abuse to me always sounded like he must be evil (when it was said about people I didn't know)!



But what about other alcoholics... don't they all become self-centered, manipulative, dishonest, demanding, and let their emotions simply take control when they drink (at least that's what it sounds like to me when reading most posts)??? Isn't it always a constant battle over who has the control/ power in alcoholic relationships (unless one of the partners starts to work on him/herself and gets off the merry-go-round)? So then isn't there always some sort of (at least verbal or emotional) abuse in alcoholic relationships??

LaTeeDa

Those behaviors are quite common in alcoholic relationships. But, you can't put an 'always' or 'never' on human beings. There are endless variations on the theme.

The important points here are:

1) Solving the alcohol problem does not automatically solve the abuse problem. One may enhance the other, but that doesn't lead to a direct cause and effect relationship.

2) I am concerned that you 'feel safe' living in the same house with an abuser. I would bet my next paycheck that every woman who has ever been hurt by their abusive partner 'felt safe,' too.

I'm glad that you are seeing a counselor, and glad that your counselor considers abuse a serious problem. I hope you will take it seriously as well.

L

barb dwyer

********* echo *}*}*}

well said.

Lotus2009

Thank you for your answer and your concern.

Maybe safe wasn't the right choice of words... What I meant to say is that I have my strength back and I believe I know what his triggers are and am able to read situations now so that I can leave before a situation escalates or even begins. I understand that safe is not the right word to use and I also know that this is not how I want to live the rest of my life (and I am really working on feeling in my heart what my head tells me I should be doing... but until I am ready to move, I know I can manage). I really, really appreciate you voicing your concern and I do take the abuse serious (but every now and then I get these weak moments, like the one I have now, where I start questioning things and look at my involvement in the situation, I guess that's just my way of trying to work through what has happened)!!

coffeedrinker

Hello Lotus,

My ex-husband is passive-aggressive. I often didn't even know that he disagreed with something I did, or was upset that I was being in control of a situation or making a decision. Sometimes even when I asked him for input! He was rarely overtly angry, we rarely even fought - he just rolled over. Whether he was drinking or not. He is a mild man, never ever violent, and fairly quiet most of the time. I'm not sure if that's the kind of response you're looking for. I think there are definitely angry drunks, there are those who kind of come out of their shell when drinking (mine was like this at a party) there are sloppy but harmless drunks (mine when very intoxicated). He actually didn't drink at home, and not much around me, so I only remember the few times from the early days before it was addressed as being a problem.

Lotus2009

Thanks also for pointing out that it doesn't matter what label I put on it... whatever it is I want to call it - it is a problem and it is a very unhealthy situation. It's weird, because I don't have a problem referring to it as abusive behavior... but for some reason when it comes down to saying he is an abuser - it sounds to me like I'm saying he is an evil person.

I guess it is similar to people who are reluctant using the label "alcoholic" ... they know it's a problem, but for some reason to them the word alcoholic just has a really bad connotation attached to it.

It really just is a description of the reality of the situation!

Lotus2009

Thanks coffeedrinker... yes I guess that is the kind of response I was looking for! I guess I need to hear that there really are all sorts of different alcoholics out there...then maybe I can come to understand (in my heart) that abuse and alcoholism really are two different issues.

bookwyrm

I struggled with this too - but after we had split up. I didn't realise I was in an abusive relationship. I was too deep in my own denial. My counsellor knew. My friends knew. It took me a while to catch up!

With XAH, the sober abuse was very subtle. I let him undermine my confidence. He dismissed me and yes, he too was passive agressive to an extent. He was very, very controlling but in a 'caring' way that pulled the wool over my eyes! When he got drunk - not just his usual 6 cans a night but actually drunk, then the abuse took on a darker aspect. He would sneer and verbally abuse me. Scream at me etc etc. In time, the dividing line between the two behaviours became blurred so that I had no idea which version of XAH I was coming home to. The last year or so we lived togather were hell and were verging on the physical - things were getting thrown etc. I still didn't label it as abuse!! It was the 'drink talking'.

Now, looking back, I can see that he was/is an abusive man. He needed to control everything and everyone one around him because of his own deep insecurities. I don't think he ever felt 'worthy' of love and couldn't let me be who I was without running the 'risk' of me leaving. Looking at how he feels about his family and how he grew up, I see him as still the little boy looking for unconditional love and approval. I really do feel sorry for him (and the OW) but I'm glad I'm out of the firing line! I can only hope that, one day, he can find recovery. An abuser isn't evil. They just do evil things!

tigger11

Very well said, all!

I personally related to Bookwyrm's post. Great articulation on the subject!

People's judgement is skewed when drunk. I think that's a contributing factor when abuse and alcohol are combined.

My STBXAH rarely missed an opportunity to open a door for me, light my cigarette, help me fold laundry, etc. He also rarely missed a night of drunken control of me. No friends, no going anywhere without him, he even controlled how much I ate. And when he was drunk, he argued constantly. And I said; "HE argued constantly" because that''s how it was. Sometimes, I didn't even get a word in edgewise. I was a bad disciplinarian, he couldn't trust me because of past behaviors (that he had made up), all my work friends were "bad" because of an incident (again concocted), etc.

Every time he beat the dog, he convinced me it was the way his dogs had been trained when he was growing up. They were perfectly disciplined animals (I'll bet!).

When you combine regular alcohol abuse and a propensity for emotional and physical abuse, I believe it's an extremely dangerous situation. It's insanity for both the abuser and the abused, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. How do we know when the anger or twisted thinking will turn violent or homicidal? It can happen in a moment, and then it's too late.

I'm sorry to be so graphic. This has been my experience. And I worry about those of us who are in dangerous situations, and don't realize it, as I was.

We're here for you Lotus. Day and night.

XO
tigg

Mr B

All of my AXGF's worst abuse was when she was drunk. The way I (eventually) saw it was that she knew she often treated me like crap when she was drunk but she drank anyway. That thought, more than anything else, made clear the reality that I was of less importance to her than alcohol.

stella27

My stbxah was pretty much okay when he was drinking, But when sober, he could be abusive. And certainly not every minute of every day - he had lots of great moments in there, too, but the verbal abuse escalated and by the end of our marriage, every interaction was tense and fraught with the potential for abuse. By abuse, I mean insults, demeaning remarks, accusations and nasty, dismissive statements. I know that I played a role in it somehow, but let me tell you: I *never* called him names or insulted him. As much as I have analyzed and gone over it, I know it was one-sided. I have standards of behavior for myself, and I still have to live with me, and I was very careful not to treat him (or anyone else) the way he treated me.

eta:
One more thing!
I don't think it's necessary to determine which is more of the issue: alcohol or abusive tendencies. What finally meant something to me was that: I don't care WHAT this behavior is, I am not going to live this way and I am not going to raise my children in a household with this dynamic.

Still Waters

Hmm. For me, the abuse after rehab and he was supposedly "recovered" was worse, but some of that was perception. You expect bizarre and nasty behavior from them when they're drunk (at least I got used to it). That behavior when not drinking takes on a more sinister tone.