further understanding codependency
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further understanding codependency
I am staying with a (codependent) friend (lets call her S). S and her wife have a toddler. S does all the housework, the cooking, the cleaning, the baby care, the endless laundry, the dishes, etc. And resents it deeply. The resentment leads to nagging which gives her partner an excuse to avoid the whole issue and blame it on S.
S came to me complaining and I heard the same complaint I have heard before. I could see the whole thing so clearly.
* How S's partner is stuck and can't get herself to do the chores (or doesn't want to, or both)
* How S. feels justified because her partner really IS shirking responsibility.
* How S. wants her partner to change, but doesn't want to lose the relationship.
* How S. is not setting boundaries.
* How S.'s upset is a message to herself that she HAS a boundary about helping with chores that she AND her partner are ignoring.
* How S. is afraid of her partner's reaction and so doesn't set those boundaries.
* How her partner keeps the status quo by using S's upset against her
* How when S. avoids setting the boundary, she punishes herself with her own circular, endless upset.
* How scary it is for her to consider setting a boundary due to the consequences.
* How S. can't even consider what she would want (minimum standards) for herself in the theoretical universe in regards to partnership and housework.
It helps me understand this codependency pattern and how it can crop up anywhere with any sort of issue, but the need to slow down, self reflect, and value oneself enough to act in the face of opposition applies each time.
Cool.
wife
S came to me complaining and I heard the same complaint I have heard before. I could see the whole thing so clearly.
* How S's partner is stuck and can't get herself to do the chores (or doesn't want to, or both)
* How S. feels justified because her partner really IS shirking responsibility.
* How S. wants her partner to change, but doesn't want to lose the relationship.
* How S. is not setting boundaries.
* How S.'s upset is a message to herself that she HAS a boundary about helping with chores that she AND her partner are ignoring.
* How S. is afraid of her partner's reaction and so doesn't set those boundaries.
* How her partner keeps the status quo by using S's upset against her
* How when S. avoids setting the boundary, she punishes herself with her own circular, endless upset.
* How scary it is for her to consider setting a boundary due to the consequences.
* How S. can't even consider what she would want (minimum standards) for herself in the theoretical universe in regards to partnership and housework.
It helps me understand this codependency pattern and how it can crop up anywhere with any sort of issue, but the need to slow down, self reflect, and value oneself enough to act in the face of opposition applies each time.
Cool.
wife
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My question is how do we receive this gift of insight and not be frustrated to the point of madness when the codependent person repeats the cycle over and over in front of us. Or worse yet comes to us for advice on what to do about it when we know it will always fall on deaf ears?
At this point, all I can do is disengage and hope I do so quickly enough not to run screaming from the room.
For example, my mother was venting to me via email about yet another insensitive act by my father not to come through with something she asked him to do. Why does she have to do everything herself? Why is she taken for granted this way? She takes care of everyone but herself and the rest of the family is so selfish! and so forth. My response to her was that this would be a great discussion to have with her counselor.
She replied that she had stopped seeing her counselor in part because she didn't want to bore her with her marital problems and figured at this point my father's too old to change anyway. I can see that codie ship docking from miles away, can't you?
I wrote her back to tell her that is exactly what the counselor is there for and what she gets paid to do, but she blew me off of course.
It's maddening, which is a sure sign that my codependence is triggered by it.
Alice
At this point, all I can do is disengage and hope I do so quickly enough not to run screaming from the room.
For example, my mother was venting to me via email about yet another insensitive act by my father not to come through with something she asked him to do. Why does she have to do everything herself? Why is she taken for granted this way? She takes care of everyone but herself and the rest of the family is so selfish! and so forth. My response to her was that this would be a great discussion to have with her counselor.
She replied that she had stopped seeing her counselor in part because she didn't want to bore her with her marital problems and figured at this point my father's too old to change anyway. I can see that codie ship docking from miles away, can't you?
I wrote her back to tell her that is exactly what the counselor is there for and what she gets paid to do, but she blew me off of course.
It's maddening, which is a sure sign that my codependence is triggered by it.
Alice
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Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice 
I can see that codie ship docking from miles away, can't you?
Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice
I wrote her back to tell her that is exactly what the counselor is there for and what she gets paid to do, but she blew me off of course.
Just like the alkies in our lives, at some point we realize they have their own journey.
L
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And to turn this whole thing in another direction...
Hopelesswife has a post that has a discussion about being kept weak by aggressors. It made me think about how GREAT my AH is when I am weak/sick/scared/crying. The other day I fell while xc skiing. He was so concerned and responsive. This was in the midst of his pissy/shut down/scared/hopeless time.
My response to him was, "You're so wonderful, its tempting to fall down all the time.
He had a partner with chronic fatigue and I wonder sometimes if she stayed so sick, in part, just to keep him calm/feeling safe/attentive/whatever.
When I felt my warm fuzzies at his concern about me falling, that was me recognizing my codependency feeling the 'click'. Meaning we ask ourselves: what can I do to get the response I want? Oh! Weakness works! Okay. I'll be weak. All immediate and unconcious, of course. But we want want want to have them be "normal". Loving. Attentive. Not scared or shut down or angry or avoidant, etc. It feeds right into us being weak and silent.
It's what (it seems) physically abused women deal with on a bigger scale, but the codependency is there on whatever level.
Interesting.
And Anvil - hijack away! Good stuff!
Hopelesswife has a post that has a discussion about being kept weak by aggressors. It made me think about how GREAT my AH is when I am weak/sick/scared/crying. The other day I fell while xc skiing. He was so concerned and responsive. This was in the midst of his pissy/shut down/scared/hopeless time.
My response to him was, "You're so wonderful, its tempting to fall down all the time.
He had a partner with chronic fatigue and I wonder sometimes if she stayed so sick, in part, just to keep him calm/feeling safe/attentive/whatever.
When I felt my warm fuzzies at his concern about me falling, that was me recognizing my codependency feeling the 'click'. Meaning we ask ourselves: what can I do to get the response I want? Oh! Weakness works! Okay. I'll be weak. All immediate and unconcious, of course. But we want want want to have them be "normal". Loving. Attentive. Not scared or shut down or angry or avoidant, etc. It feeds right into us being weak and silent.
It's what (it seems) physically abused women deal with on a bigger scale, but the codependency is there on whatever level.
Interesting.
And Anvil - hijack away! Good stuff!
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Originally Posted by wifeofadrinker
When I felt my warm fuzzies at his concern about me falling, that was me recognizing my codependency feeling the 'click'. Meaning we ask ourselves: what can I do to get the response I want? Oh! Weakness works! Okay. I'll be weak. All immediate and unconcious, of course. But we want want want to have them be "normal". Loving. Attentive. Not scared or shut down or angry or avoidant, etc. It feeds right into us being weak and silent.
It's what (it seems) physically abused women deal with on a bigger scale, but the codependency is there on whatever level.
It's what (it seems) physically abused women deal with on a bigger scale, but the codependency is there on whatever level.
)This is the dominant/submissive model we've all been sold. If not by our families, then by society as a whole. (for me it was both) It's the Prince Charming/Cinderella model we've been spoon-fed since we were old enough to comprehend. I, for one, bought into it hook, line and sinker. I just knew that if I was "desirable enough," I could find someone who would "take care of me." The whole thing makes me want to wretch. And I was never the submissive type. But, I bought into the fairytale nonetheless.
What if we taught our children that they are good and worthy and unique all by themselves? What if we showed them by our example that life can take many paths, not all of them "traditional?" What kind of world would we live in if everyone could pursue whatever made their soul dance and their heart sing, whether anyone else agreed with it or not? Ah, that is the world I want to live in.
L
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
But this is not "normal." (I did notice you put it in quotes, so I know you didn't mean normal. )
This is the dominant/submissive model we've all been sold. If not by our families, then by society as a whole. (for me it was both) It's the Prince Charming/Cinderella model we've been spoon-fed since we were old enough to comprehend. I, for one, bought into it hook, line and sinker. I just knew that if I was "desirable enough," I could find someone who would "take care of me." The whole thing makes me want to wretch. And I was never the submissive type. But, I bought into the fairytale nonetheless.
What if we taught our children that they are good and worthy and unique all by themselves? What if we showed them by our example that life can take many paths, not all of them "traditional?" What kind of world would we live in if everyone could pursue whatever made their soul dance and their heart sing, whether anyone else agreed with it or not? Ah, that is the world I want to live in.
L
)This is the dominant/submissive model we've all been sold. If not by our families, then by society as a whole. (for me it was both) It's the Prince Charming/Cinderella model we've been spoon-fed since we were old enough to comprehend. I, for one, bought into it hook, line and sinker. I just knew that if I was "desirable enough," I could find someone who would "take care of me." The whole thing makes me want to wretch. And I was never the submissive type. But, I bought into the fairytale nonetheless.
What if we taught our children that they are good and worthy and unique all by themselves? What if we showed them by our example that life can take many paths, not all of them "traditional?" What kind of world would we live in if everyone could pursue whatever made their soul dance and their heart sing, whether anyone else agreed with it or not? Ah, that is the world I want to live in.
L
I'm not submissive-y either! I AM very people pleaser and its worse with men!
This is GREAT practice with knowing my reality is valid for me EVEN IF a man (or woman or authority figure, for that matter) is telling me its crazy/selfish/no good/hurtful.
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My question is how do we receive this gift of insight and not be frustrated to the point of madness when the codependent person repeats the cycle over and over in front of us. Or worse yet comes to us for advice on what to do about it when we know it will always fall on deaf ears?
Mostly I am finding at the moment, that when I am very irritated at someone, it is a trait that I am or have recently struggled with myself, especially if it comes from a family member. I am far less frustrated by people doing/thinking stuff that I have never/am not currently struggling with. I am trying to use that as a sign-post for my ever growing list of "stuff" to work on.
that helps me get far less irritated at them, I am starting to think "ahhh, so that was what I've been doing......." n ot always, and often only after I've got away from the situation at hand.
My aunt is an alcoholic. My mother is driven to distraction by her often nightly phone calls ranting drunkenly in melodramatic fashion, she has also broken her wrist, and Mum is travelling weekly to bathe her. There is so much codependent frustration and hurt from my mum. I've tried a few suggestions, she can't hear them. It is a powerful lesson about my own "have you tried?: yes, but........" attitude.
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Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice
My question is how do we receive this gift of insight and not be frustrated to the point of madness when the codependent person repeats the cycle over and over in front of us. Or worse yet comes to us for advice on what to do about it when we know it will always fall on deaf ears?...
Did I just wake up one fine morning and say "Wow, my life is so fantastic, I think I'll go bury myself in al-anon and SR out of sheer happiness"
umm..... no.
I review my first posts and I see that it was _me_ that was repeating the cycle over and over, it was _me_ that was stuck in a false fantasy of my own creation, it was _me_ that was not listening to what others were saying. The best thing I can do for others, in fact the _only_ thing that I have found actually works with codies is to lead by example. Not push with advice.
How do I avoid being frustrated? By remembering that I am _not_ my ex-wife's higher power, I am _not_ the one with the authority to make decisions for her life, to tell her what is good for her and how to go about achieving it.
Likewise, I am not the Higher Power of anybody on this forum, or in meets of al-anon. The moment I start giving advice, I am having a codie relapse and putting myself back on that self-apointed pedestal. The moment I start feeling frustrated, I am having a codie-hangover as a result of having lorded it over some poor suffering person who is as lost and confused as I once was.
Whenever I am feeling frustrated, it means I have made somebode else feel belittled, inferior and hopeless with my well-intended but completely unwarranted advice.
My sponsor taught me that when I feel frustraed it is a signal that I need to be making some ammends, and perhaps a new fourth and fifth step.
Mike
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Likewise, I am not the Higher Power of anybody on this forum, or in meets of al-anon. The moment I start giving advice, I am having a codie relapse and putting myself back on that self-apointed pedestal. The moment I start feeling frustrated, I am having a codie-hangover as a result of having lorded it over some poor suffering person who is as lost and confused as I once was.
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The moment I start feeling frustrated, I am having a codie-hangover as a result of having lorded it over some poor suffering person who is as lost and confused as I once was.
Wow, Desert Eyes! This line stung a bit. Must mean it's workin' So true it is.
When I read Wife's original post, I thought, how can she just listen and not be agitated and want to shake her codie friend loose at the hinges.
It's because she is not feeling the need to lord over her friend and tell her friend where she's gone wrong. She is seeing the codependency play out but is accepting of her powerlessness over it. Something I see I have not fully accepted with my Mom.
Wow, Desert Eyes! This line stung a bit. Must mean it's workin' So true it is.
When I read Wife's original post, I thought, how can she just listen and not be agitated and want to shake her codie friend loose at the hinges.
It's because she is not feeling the need to lord over her friend and tell her friend where she's gone wrong. She is seeing the codependency play out but is accepting of her powerlessness over it. Something I see I have not fully accepted with my Mom.
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Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice
When I read Wife's original post, I thought, how can she just listen and not be agitated and want to shake her codie friend loose at the hinges.
With this particular friend, I think I commiserate so much with her situation, I tend to sympathize (also not very helpful in excess), but I can also see the whole thing play out.
Of course, with my AH, I want to shake the hell out of him sometimes! LOL! That's cuz its so close to home.
I find it amazing how you can FULLY understand something in one area of life and the EXACT issue arises somewhere else or with someone else and BAM! It's like you never learned the lesson and you have to learn it all over again!
So just because I didn't feel frustrated with my one friend doesn't mean I don't know the feeling very well!
Last edited by DesertEyes; 01-31-2010 at 12:06 AM. Reason: Fixed broken quote
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Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice
...Wow, Desert Eyes! This line stung a bit. Must mean it's workin' So true it is. ....
Please accept my apologies, I didn't mean it as a dig at you or anybody else.
Originally Posted by ItsmeAlice
... how can she just listen and not be agitated and want to shake her codie friend loose at the hinges. ....
So instead of acting on my feelings I call my sponsor, go to a meet, zip the lip and do my best to turn it over.I'm getting better at it, one day at a time
Mike
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Thank You
Thank you, wife, for sharing your thoughts and starting this thread!
Thank you, SR family, for sharing your wisdom and insight!
Thank you, Alice, for the chuckle:
all I can do is disengage and hope I do so quickly enough not to run screaming from the room.
Like My Hair Was ON-FIRE!!
Was this thread helpful?
I'll meditate on the wisdom shared
Thank you, SR family, for sharing your wisdom and insight!
Thank you, Alice, for the chuckle:
all I can do is disengage and hope I do so quickly enough not to run screaming from the room.
Like My Hair Was ON-FIRE!!
Was this thread helpful?
I'll meditate on the wisdom shared
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Please accept my apologies, I didn't mean it as a dig at you or anybody else.
No apologies necessary at all. I was only marveling at how the concept hit home with me.
Sometimes the way I know something said here rings true for me too is when it smarts a little, ya know. Makes me look around sometimes and wonder if someone can see inside my little world and knows the secrets about me. The ones that I don't even tell myself about.
I know that in reality, we are just all a little bit alike around here, and the truth about one of us is true about many others and a revelation can be the same way.
What a 'work in progress' life is. Give me all the more reason to enjoy my new life and my new path in recovery. Some days I struggle. Other days I coast through. It's a lot easier with tools to work with now, I'll say that for sure.
Blessings all!
Alice.
No apologies necessary at all.
I was only marveling at how the concept hit home with me. Sometimes the way I know something said here rings true for me too is when it smarts a little, ya know. Makes me look around sometimes and wonder if someone can see inside my little world and knows the secrets about me. The ones that I don't even tell myself about.
I know that in reality, we are just all a little bit alike around here, and the truth about one of us is true about many others and a revelation can be the same way.
What a 'work in progress' life is. Give me all the more reason to enjoy my new life and my new path in recovery. Some days I struggle. Other days I coast through. It's a lot easier with tools to work with now, I'll say that for sure.
Blessings all!
Alice.
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