I need you guys
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Quebec
Posts: 2,708
Originally Posted by Elsie 
Doing it on his own, which I think is going to be very hard for him.
Aieee follow your gut instinct Elsie. Detach from this man and let HP take care of him. Whatever is meant to happen with him will happen.
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
Which reminds me of this past weekend, he was over, asked me to get him something and I said I couldn't, he should get it. He said his legs were sore and he didn't want to get up, it became a little tiff and he said that I always get stuff for the kids, so why wouldn't I get it for him.
Well. Please let me validate your feelings of not wanting to buy a house with a man who wants you to wait on him, then guilt trips you if you don't. He's not a partner, he's another freaking kid!
I have a friend who has two kids, her mother lives in an apartment attached to her house and her brother lives next door. She has more help than God with those kids. She goes to the gym. She works out. She works. She looks fantastic all of the time.
I was really jealous of her for years. Then, one day, during the summer, when my AH and I were fighting and the kids were driving me crazy, her husband said to me. "oh, I"m so sorry. I know how hard it is for moms in the summer to get their own time."
First, I was FLOORED that this MAN said this to me. I couldn't believe it. It was like a rock had spoken.
Then I realized my friend has CHOSEN her life. Arranged it this way. It was a turning point in my marriage. I foolishly told AH about what her husband had said and to this day he won't step foot in their house. He seethes with rage whenever that family is mentioned.
Why? Because he's jealous and threatened by my friends husband. Calls him names like "***** whipped"
I stopped being jealous of my friend that day and started changing my mind about wht love is. What a supportive partner looks like. And I'm not going to settle for anything less than what my ideal is. She has it! I will too!
REcently our son wanted to go to a party there when AH had the kids and he still won't go over there, he's that threatened.
There are men who truly love their partners. Men who get it. I've settled long enough.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
All your love, support and presence in the past has NOT changed anything for HIM, but caused your a lot of stress and grief. You have gone thru this without any support from him, until it has sent you for help and support from those who have had similar experiences and nightmares.
this is just brilliant
this is just brilliant
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
Nope, he's not seeking advice from ANYONE including his Dr.
Not going to AA or anything even related to it.
He's told a few family members and close friends, that's all.
Doing it on his own, which I think is going to be very hard for him
Not going to AA or anything even related to it.
He's told a few family members and close friends, that's all.
Doing it on his own, which I think is going to be very hard for him
I think that's called dry drunk, right?
Oh, I hope you have the strength to detach.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by Elsie
Nope, he's not seeking advice from ANYONE including his Dr.
Not going to AA or anything even related to it.
He's told a few family members and close friends, that's all.
Doing it on his own, which I think is going to be very hard for him.
Not going to AA or anything even related to it.
He's told a few family members and close friends, that's all.
Doing it on his own, which I think is going to be very hard for him.
Except of course, from you, who has a track record of "helping" him.
Aside from that, I thought your email to him was perfect. His to you:
I don't really see what these others are seeing. When can this guy say "I need you in my life" to Elsie? Why can't he express his vulnerability and tell her that he would like to receive comfort from her - isn't that what loving partners do? I thought it good that he said he will remain sober with or without her (although I don't believe that he will unless he changes his means) and also, for him to say (interpretation) "I'm scared, I need reassurance that you are here for me, it feels to me like you've already decided to break up w/me but just haven't told me yet" . . . well it does kinda sound like that, doesn't it?
I'm not saying I think Elsie should rush to his side - she DOES need to figure things out, watch his progress, and wait. He may very well have a history of manipulating her and acting like a child. But in that email, I just didn't see anything wrong with him being honest about his feelings (if he indeed was)
The next time you communicate with him to clarify (if you do) I would suggest telling him that it feels like he is pressuring you. Pressure always backfires.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,207
Elsie,
I have to hijack to address transformie's thread about men who "get it".
About 3 weeks ago my beloved golden retriever (13 years old) was at the vet's being tested for kidney function. I was at work waiting for the vet to call me. When he did call and told me that she was very, very sick and we needed to put her down, a man I work with was in my office.
He heard me take the call and said "Do you want me to come with you?"
I said yes. And then I started crying - for the loss of my precious dog, but also for the KINDNESS of my friend. A man, a MAN!! saw me in a hard situation and offered his emotional and physical support.
My own husband of 15 years abandoned me and his 3 children in Florida (we live in Texas) while we were on vacation. He didn't care that the kids were psyched to go to Disney World with him. he thought nothing of ruining their vacation and their lives. And it was all my fault for being "too controlling." What he meant was that I had finally stood up for myself and demanded to be treated with respect - if not kindness. And he didn't like it.
So what the he*# was wrong with me that I chose MEAN and SELFISH and emotionally GREEDY for all those years?
KIND and GOOD and LOVING apparently are out there. Who knew?
But Elsie, this man who is insistent on leaning on you and having you do everything for HIM isn't acting that way.
We can choose! Transformie, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your post. It has really spoken to me. thank you.
I have to hijack to address transformie's thread about men who "get it".
About 3 weeks ago my beloved golden retriever (13 years old) was at the vet's being tested for kidney function. I was at work waiting for the vet to call me. When he did call and told me that she was very, very sick and we needed to put her down, a man I work with was in my office.
He heard me take the call and said "Do you want me to come with you?"
I said yes. And then I started crying - for the loss of my precious dog, but also for the KINDNESS of my friend. A man, a MAN!! saw me in a hard situation and offered his emotional and physical support.
My own husband of 15 years abandoned me and his 3 children in Florida (we live in Texas) while we were on vacation. He didn't care that the kids were psyched to go to Disney World with him. he thought nothing of ruining their vacation and their lives. And it was all my fault for being "too controlling." What he meant was that I had finally stood up for myself and demanded to be treated with respect - if not kindness. And he didn't like it.
So what the he*# was wrong with me that I chose MEAN and SELFISH and emotionally GREEDY for all those years?
KIND and GOOD and LOVING apparently are out there. Who knew?
But Elsie, this man who is insistent on leaning on you and having you do everything for HIM isn't acting that way.
We can choose! Transformie, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your post. It has really spoken to me. thank you.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 139
Originally Posted by transformyself
Oh, I hope you have the strength to detach.
"It took that long to type that? What are you doing to me? I am in obvious turmoil where you are concerned and I wait here for you. Maybe I am just another jerkoff loser."
"When did you start to lose interest in us?"
"But you said we could chat. Why tell me that? Why get my hopes up? Instead I wait all night. Why me?"
All that was just last night.....
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by Elsie
When I try to detatch, I get emails like this
"It took that long to type that? What are you doing to me? I am in obvious turmoil where you are concerned and I wait here for you. Maybe I am just another jerkoff loser."
"When did you start to lose interest in us?"
"But you said we could chat. Why tell me that? Why get my hopes up? Instead I wait all night. Why me?"
All that was just last night.....
"It took that long to type that? What are you doing to me? I am in obvious turmoil where you are concerned and I wait here for you. Maybe I am just another jerkoff loser."
"When did you start to lose interest in us?"
"But you said we could chat. Why tell me that? Why get my hopes up? Instead I wait all night. Why me?"
All that was just last night.....
It will completely ruin your relationship because if you say what he needs to hear, he will become furious with you.
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
Uh Girl I am SO SORRY.
No matter what you decide, I'll be here to support you.
Someone else, I think coffee, said what's wrong with him expressing his feelings to you? I guess nothing, but for me this looks like a boundary issue. If you try to establish them with him, he freaks out. Gets all needy. Then pouts.
So expressing feelings isn't the issue, from what you're telling us. It's the lack of respect for boundaries you're trying to create, and you're being really kind to him. Its not like your a jerk!
Most likely, the best course of action would be to focus on yourself. What do you want? For me, that can't happen when I"m in constant contact with my AH. He weaves a web of confusion and until I walk I away I always get stuck in it.
Question: did you leave him and THEN he announced this commitment to sobriety (without anyone to help him except for you?) ?
No matter what you decide, I'll be here to support you.
Someone else, I think coffee, said what's wrong with him expressing his feelings to you? I guess nothing, but for me this looks like a boundary issue. If you try to establish them with him, he freaks out. Gets all needy. Then pouts.
So expressing feelings isn't the issue, from what you're telling us. It's the lack of respect for boundaries you're trying to create, and you're being really kind to him. Its not like your a jerk!
Most likely, the best course of action would be to focus on yourself. What do you want? For me, that can't happen when I"m in constant contact with my AH. He weaves a web of confusion and until I walk I away I always get stuck in it.
Question: did you leave him and THEN he announced this commitment to sobriety (without anyone to help him except for you?) ?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 139
Originally Posted by transformyself
Uh Girl I am SO SORRY.
No matter what you decide, I'll be here to support you.
Someone else, I think coffee, said what's wrong with him expressing his feelings to you? I guess nothing, but for me this looks like a boundary issue. If you try to establish them with him, he freaks out. Gets all needy. Then pouts.
So expressing feelings isn't the issue, from what you're telling us. It's the lack of respect for boundaries you're trying to create, and you're being really kind to him. Its not like your a jerk!
Most likely, the best course of action would be to focus on yourself. What do you want? For me, that can't happen when I"m in constant contact with my AH. He weaves a web of confusion and until I walk I away I always get stuck in it.
Question: did you leave him and THEN he announced this commitment to sobriety (without anyone to help him except for you?) ?
No matter what you decide, I'll be here to support you.
Someone else, I think coffee, said what's wrong with him expressing his feelings to you? I guess nothing, but for me this looks like a boundary issue. If you try to establish them with him, he freaks out. Gets all needy. Then pouts.
So expressing feelings isn't the issue, from what you're telling us. It's the lack of respect for boundaries you're trying to create, and you're being really kind to him. Its not like your a jerk!
Most likely, the best course of action would be to focus on yourself. What do you want? For me, that can't happen when I"m in constant contact with my AH. He weaves a web of confusion and until I walk I away I always get stuck in it.
Question: did you leave him and THEN he announced this commitment to sobriety (without anyone to help him except for you?) ?
I do try to focus on myself and worry about ME and not him, which is why I refrain from worrying about the time in between emails, and why I sit where I am most comfortable. I like to sit leaning against the arm of the couch or chair, thing is so does he and so I choose a different seat. He wants me to sit beside him, in the middle of the couch and I just don't like sitting there!
I find that if I do what he wants me to do, I get angry and resentful. But I do what I want to do, I'm still miserable because he's on my case about it!
Regarding his timeline for sobriety.....I gave him a boundary.
On New years Eve he went completely weird, I invited him to my Mom's, he said no have fun, later on he demanded that I give our son to him for the night...I posted this here...title was "Got scared last night" or something like that. Actually, my memory is fuzzy, I can't recall if the bondary came before or after this event..in any case..I told him that he can do whatever he wants, but that I do not want him drinking in my house, and I do not want to be around him if he's drinking. January 1st, he told me he's quitting.
He's said a few times (in anger) that I'm making him quit, that he's doing it just because I want him to, but when he's not angry he says he undertands and that he's quitting for himself and his kids.
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
Send one final email:
"I cannot deal with YOUR ISSUES any longer, you will have to straighten yourself out without my help."
Then you delete any further emails from him.
Hard? Yes it is. However, each day it will get just a teeny bit easier to stay NO CONTACT.
Please remember:
You didn't CAUSE this.
You can't CONTRL this.
You can't CURE this.
You, for your own peace of mind, need to work on you, your perception of yourself, and your own goals. He, in order to change, accept responsinility for his own wrong doings, make amends where needed, etc has to work on himself if and when he is ready.
If our love could fix others none of us would be here sweetie. The only person we can even attempt to fix is ourselves.
This is just plain old QUACKING. Another manipulation technique to SUCKER you back in so he can have his 'status quo' that makes him comfortable.
Post as often as you need. Know we are with you in spirit at all times, and ........................please do not respond to his emails or calls.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
"I cannot deal with YOUR ISSUES any longer, you will have to straighten yourself out without my help."
Then you delete any further emails from him.
Hard? Yes it is. However, each day it will get just a teeny bit easier to stay NO CONTACT.
Please remember:
You didn't CAUSE this.
You can't CONTRL this.
You can't CURE this.
You, for your own peace of mind, need to work on you, your perception of yourself, and your own goals. He, in order to change, accept responsinility for his own wrong doings, make amends where needed, etc has to work on himself if and when he is ready.
If our love could fix others none of us would be here sweetie. The only person we can even attempt to fix is ourselves.
"It took that long to type that? What are you doing to me? I am in obvious turmoil where you are concerned and I wait here for you. Maybe I am just another jerkoff loser."
"When did you start to lose interest in us?"
"But you said we could chat. Why tell me that? Why get my hopes up? Instead I wait all night. Why me?"
"When did you start to lose interest in us?"
"But you said we could chat. Why tell me that? Why get my hopes up? Instead I wait all night. Why me?"
Post as often as you need. Know we are with you in spirit at all times, and ........................please do not respond to his emails or calls.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
And I agree also that you should just end it.
Isn't that great? I've decided what you should do with this awful, painful, ongoing nightmare. I, the great Transform have decided what you should do with your life! Yay Transform!
If I had a dollar for all the times my friends and family decided for me that I should end it with my AH, well, I'd have a lot of dollars.
But seriously. I am sorry for your ongoing pain. I think, once again, that he's tricked you. And only you can decide what to do.
Lets recap:
You reached a point where you had had enough. You drew a line.
He blames you for drawing that line.
He says he'll do it FOREVER, IF you support him.
He wants you to keep him sober . (And wait on him, like you do for your four other kids)
He blames you, he retreats and pouts, he won't take responsibility for his own recovery. He essentially demands that you keep him sober and, (here's my favorite)
He pressures you into answering him WHEN HE WANTS YOU TO AND NOT A SECOND LATER.
Look what you've done Elsie! How dare you.
When I was here with my AH, my abandonment buttons would get pushed and I would be too afraid to not do what he wanted because he may: hook up with his affair partner, leave me, not like or love me , or whatever that veiled threat was. And I didn't even know what I wanted, except be loved and not be abandoned. And all that crap.
It's still taking me some time to recognize that ain't love. It's extortion.
Maybe you can, nice like, tell him you want him to respect your boundaries and get other support? See if that works?
More hugs Girl. Do what you've gotta do..
Isn't that great? I've decided what you should do with this awful, painful, ongoing nightmare. I, the great Transform have decided what you should do with your life! Yay Transform!
If I had a dollar for all the times my friends and family decided for me that I should end it with my AH, well, I'd have a lot of dollars.
But seriously. I am sorry for your ongoing pain. I think, once again, that he's tricked you. And only you can decide what to do.
Lets recap:
You reached a point where you had had enough. You drew a line.
He blames you for drawing that line.
He says he'll do it FOREVER, IF you support him.
He wants you to keep him sober . (And wait on him, like you do for your four other kids)
He blames you, he retreats and pouts, he won't take responsibility for his own recovery. He essentially demands that you keep him sober and, (here's my favorite)
He pressures you into answering him WHEN HE WANTS YOU TO AND NOT A SECOND LATER.
Look what you've done Elsie! How dare you.
When I was here with my AH, my abandonment buttons would get pushed and I would be too afraid to not do what he wanted because he may: hook up with his affair partner, leave me, not like or love me , or whatever that veiled threat was. And I didn't even know what I wanted, except be loved and not be abandoned. And all that crap.
It's still taking me some time to recognize that ain't love. It's extortion.
Maybe you can, nice like, tell him you want him to respect your boundaries and get other support? See if that works?
More hugs Girl. Do what you've gotta do..
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 534
And I didn't even know what I wanted, except be loved and not be abandoned.
Elsie, at the very least, maybe take a breather and focus on what you actually want in life and in a love relationship.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 31,179
((Elsie)) just one more comment, from an RA....when he says "I will never drink again"...the majority of us who are in recovery NEVER say that....we know that we are only one bad decision away from going back to where we were.
I get that he is doing this "for you" and when you don't do what he wants, he will act out and blame it on you. I hope that I'm wrong, but you, most definitely, would be better off spending time taking care of YOU and your children. He has plenty of issues he needs to work out on his own, and he needs to stop thinking you can take care of them for him.
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
I get that he is doing this "for you" and when you don't do what he wants, he will act out and blame it on you. I hope that I'm wrong, but you, most definitely, would be better off spending time taking care of YOU and your children. He has plenty of issues he needs to work out on his own, and he needs to stop thinking you can take care of them for him.
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
Thank you for this thread.
A man that gets it, ahh where can I buy one?
I got two bamboo plants I LOVE... and want to place next to my entrance door. BUT.. there is another huge plant that needs to be moved and its too heavy.
I asked BF.. he says "where are we gonna put that other plant" and I said "I told the policeman we wanted to have other plants instead of this one, if you get it downstairs he will find another place in the common hallways" well the policeman didn't remember...
I ask bf to go tell him.. he says "No, why don't YOU go? how much effort is that??" I say "if its no effort at all then why dont YOU go?" needless to say the huge plant is still out there, the bamboos are still in, the cats are still dirty playing with its earth every day, and then he complains the cats are very dirty.
Sigh...
This is when I wonder if a man can learn and GET IT.. or if he is doomed to be like this forever and ever and I will have to let him go.
Or today... I wake up... he wants some action.. I say no.. once.. he insists.. I say "its 2 times now" and by the 3rd one I get angry and he says "noo, I love you... you just look too good.. I'm an animal... yadda"
and I say
"you can avoid telling me out loud you love me the rest of your life...
you tell me you love me when you RESPECT me..
when you LISTEN...
when you TAKE ME SERIOUSLY...
when you SHARE the workload..
when I work 24 straight hours and you DONT CALL EVERY HALF AN HOUR because you know I'm concentrated and may be in important calls...
when you give me my space...
when I arrive and you dont say "you dont love me anymore!! you prefer work!! and you havent even Un-paused the washing machine to finish washing your socks and now there is another pair of socks and shoes you just threw anywhere in our room and a much bigger mess........"
when I arrive and you say "good you're back" or just hug me...... AND put some order... and NO its no big feat TO DO all those things IN THE SAME DAY...
So after some serious talk and testing time, if its exactly the same, then I see no point. I live better alone with my mess and my timings, he adds nothing much but extra stress and work. Sorry for my rant and hijack.
Yes, I too, want a man that gets it. At least now.. I see the actions, not the words. And after mourning an alcoholic it even looks easy to break up with a "normal" bf...
I believe many are that way because they are used to women solving everything and taking care of every need since they are children. Makes me nauseous... over here, many think they are superheroes... just because they are males...YUK
Sorry.
Back to Elsie.. i'm no alcoholic but in the AA meetings I went and the retreat I went to.... they don't say "never" they say TODAY.. or THIS MOMENT.
I would comment on his phrases but its no use... I second Laurie... go no contact...block him... or just break up with him, no extensive reason needed... "I cant do this anymore. All the best". No room for him to manipulate or diminish your feelings or guilt you menacing he will throw himself through the window or criticize the way you washed the dishes or make it about your faults and shortcomings...
His comments are all "me me me" and its very tiring.
I had learned love is very limited and you need to stick with whatever seems like it..even putting up with tons of BS and bad times...
Now.. I believe... that you are not out there seeking love or finding someone special... you ARE the love you seek... you just need to let it flow from you...
...you do not need to move heaven and earth and find true friends and an excellent partner..
You need to get rid of whatever is toxic (no easier feat!!)... the past, the worries about tomorrow, people ,some places, thoughts, your patterns, deep rooted beliefs of things not being "enough" or needing some loser... er, I meant, "confused human being" to complete you...
All the best to both of you...... thanks all for making me think again of what I'm seeking in a romantic relationship. I learn a lot from you all!
A man that gets it, ahh where can I buy one?
I got two bamboo plants I LOVE... and want to place next to my entrance door. BUT.. there is another huge plant that needs to be moved and its too heavy.
I asked BF.. he says "where are we gonna put that other plant" and I said "I told the policeman we wanted to have other plants instead of this one, if you get it downstairs he will find another place in the common hallways" well the policeman didn't remember...
I ask bf to go tell him.. he says "No, why don't YOU go? how much effort is that??" I say "if its no effort at all then why dont YOU go?" needless to say the huge plant is still out there, the bamboos are still in, the cats are still dirty playing with its earth every day, and then he complains the cats are very dirty.
Sigh...
This is when I wonder if a man can learn and GET IT.. or if he is doomed to be like this forever and ever and I will have to let him go.
Or today... I wake up... he wants some action.. I say no.. once.. he insists.. I say "its 2 times now" and by the 3rd one I get angry and he says "noo, I love you... you just look too good.. I'm an animal... yadda"
and I say
"you can avoid telling me out loud you love me the rest of your life...
you tell me you love me when you RESPECT me..
when you LISTEN...
when you TAKE ME SERIOUSLY...
when you SHARE the workload..
when I work 24 straight hours and you DONT CALL EVERY HALF AN HOUR because you know I'm concentrated and may be in important calls...
when you give me my space...
when I arrive and you dont say "you dont love me anymore!! you prefer work!! and you havent even Un-paused the washing machine to finish washing your socks and now there is another pair of socks and shoes you just threw anywhere in our room and a much bigger mess........"
when I arrive and you say "good you're back" or just hug me...... AND put some order... and NO its no big feat TO DO all those things IN THE SAME DAY...
So after some serious talk and testing time, if its exactly the same, then I see no point. I live better alone with my mess and my timings, he adds nothing much but extra stress and work. Sorry for my rant and hijack.
Yes, I too, want a man that gets it. At least now.. I see the actions, not the words. And after mourning an alcoholic it even looks easy to break up with a "normal" bf...
I believe many are that way because they are used to women solving everything and taking care of every need since they are children. Makes me nauseous... over here, many think they are superheroes... just because they are males...YUK
Sorry.
Back to Elsie.. i'm no alcoholic but in the AA meetings I went and the retreat I went to.... they don't say "never" they say TODAY.. or THIS MOMENT.
I would comment on his phrases but its no use... I second Laurie... go no contact...block him... or just break up with him, no extensive reason needed... "I cant do this anymore. All the best". No room for him to manipulate or diminish your feelings or guilt you menacing he will throw himself through the window or criticize the way you washed the dishes or make it about your faults and shortcomings...
His comments are all "me me me" and its very tiring.
I had learned love is very limited and you need to stick with whatever seems like it..even putting up with tons of BS and bad times...
Now.. I believe... that you are not out there seeking love or finding someone special... you ARE the love you seek... you just need to let it flow from you...
...you do not need to move heaven and earth and find true friends and an excellent partner..
You need to get rid of whatever is toxic (no easier feat!!)... the past, the worries about tomorrow, people ,some places, thoughts, your patterns, deep rooted beliefs of things not being "enough" or needing some loser... er, I meant, "confused human being" to complete you...
All the best to both of you...... thanks all for making me think again of what I'm seeking in a romantic relationship. I learn a lot from you all!
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