FindingPeace1

Hey, all! This has become a thought dump-unload. Thanks for listening!

I was able to squeeze a few words of communication out of my AH this weekend...(yes, I recognize me trying and trying to get him to communicate about things he wants me to shut up about is not accepting what is! Rats, am I a work in progress!!)

He told me when I took a two week break after confronting him about drinking, that he felt suicidal while I was gone (confronted with his actions and his self hatred), then felt better after a while (back in denial?), and now that I am back, feels like an a$$hole again (getting forced to deal with reality?). <sigh>. I keep saying, "I don't think you're an a$$hole! I love you AND there is work to do! Even in the face of this yuck, I love you and know you love me!" But it makes no difference. He says the nice moments we have had since I have been back are "not reality".

The night I called him on his behavior, he remembers communicating. He remembers opening up to me - that he spilled his guts. I remember him swearing, denying, minimizing, and eventually leaving saying the relationship is over. I can't FORCE him to see it any differently (as much as I'd love to!!).

He can not hear *ANY* problem or concern I have without thinking that I hate him and that I think he is an A$$hole. I think that is because he secretly thinks he is a jerk and I unmask him as one. So if I share a concern, he feels unloved and thus unsafe and can't connect to his own love for me. Not really a recipe for relationship growth. I can see why I have done this dance of not sending him to this place. I try to say things in the right way, say this, don't say that, try to time my communication perfectly, withdraw, chase, etc. etc. all to manage it so he feels safe and loved, or will stop running away, or will open up, or will whatever! Such a delicate process. Such a sensitive man. Such a nutty way to live for us both.

I told him I had realized there was a "Do Not Go There Box" in our relationship and there was a list of things in it - any of his transgressions, his relationship past, mine, sex...and that I didn't want a relationship that way. He said he had no idea I have felt like that and that I was dropping another "bomb" on him. He said I was holding grudges and building up a scorecard and that he won't accept a relationship where his partner was going to drop these surprise upsets on him all the time. Of course, if he shuts down every time I bring it up, how do I bring it up? I know that is just a ruse to not go there! AHH! So circular...

I asked him what he felt when he felt the need to deceive me and he said, "You assume I am conscious about it. I'm not." So that was honest.

I came home from my retreat to find the presents had not been sent. The night before Christmas, I was sending out an email to say our presents would get in the mail after x-mas and I asked my AH for his sister's correct email address. He flipped out, insisting that I tell him every time I communicate with his family.
Why? I asked.
I can communicate with my family just fine! He muttered.
But why? I asked.
Because! He said coldly. It's common courtesy!
Do you want to proofread this? I asked.
No, he said. Just tell me when you communicate with them.
Well, I ran away and called his step dad, who has been a great support and is in Alanon. I was afraid I would lose him as a support. My step dad in law told me to tell my AH that he could, in no way, control who I talk to. When I finally got up the nerve to set the boundary with my AH, he insisted that he never meant it that way. He meant if I was sending a message from our family, he should know. He's right, but I think he is also messing with my head about his original intent. Maybe I am over reactionary, too? Ah, well!

He pretty much straight up said he doesn't want to talk about any ole uncomfortable thing and that if I did (in the big picture) - if I had to struggle to not talk about things, then I didn't want to be with him. Of course, it was couched in him saying he was tired of me riding him. Can't I just leave him alone and stop controlling him for once? He hates himself for feeling that way, but that's the way he feels. Well, I have to respect the honesty in that.

I don't want to accept it. I still want to believe I can say some magic thing to have him break down and open himself to me. I am still shocked that I really am in a marriage with someone that so hates himself. That so doesn't give permission for his own imperfection. That doesn't want to communicate about the yuck at all. (Can I do that? Can I stuff everything?? So many women do...are there partners out there that actually address issues?? Where?? Am I tricking myself into thinking there is perfection out there?)

So check this out - my mom married a wonderful, kind, high functioning alcoholic. She grew. He didn't. She wanted more. He didn't. She eventually asked him to leave. They are divorced. They still love each other. My dad is still kind, responsible, high functioning and a raging alcoholic. And here I am, playing it all out. Exactly. All over. Craziness! My dad never hit bottom or even got low. He remarried an alcoholic and is now retired and they travel with cases of wine together. His new wife *leaves him be* about whatever. If I am to survive in my marriage, I have to leave him be about it all. I don't think I can.

He is clearer, in a way, than I about what's next. Although, he is sure the relationship is over because he is hateful and awful and an a$$hole...or at least he thinks I think so...so I am sure to leave him. But he sees that if he is unwilling to go there (communicate about the hard stuff) with me and I need that, it is a no win. Now I just have to accept it. It seems impossible to accept. Impossible!

I see him as so fragile. I recognize my own fragility in him. I recognize the dysfunction in seeing your partner that way. I want to save him from himself. How fruitless. How sad for both of us. He is so trapped in himself. He is so wonderful when I avoid the darkness. He is so sad/mad/angry/defensive/hopeless/self hating when I try to communicate about it. I make him suffer with my pushing him all the time. It just hurts him. Then the communication I get is forced and although feels like a ton of work for him, leaves me unsatisfied. The forced apology. The forced opening. I am left wanting. He is left feeling like I am never satisfied. Can never let the past rest. Endless.

I am hanging in there. Sending holiday love to you all.

Wife

laurie6781

You know what? Everything you have reported he that he has said is pure BS.

He is in MANIPULATION MODE MAXIMUM as he knows what buttons of yours to push to keep you off balance and NOT discuss his drinking, lying, cheating, whatever.

You will not get an 'honest' answer out of him at this stage of his progression.

He's got you on the Roller Coaster and he sure in heck wants to keep you there.

You, on the other hand can get off anytime you want.

Have you tried Al-Anon or private counseling to learn how to set YOUR boundaries and stick to them? Do you even want to set boundaries?

What you reported above just gives him 1,000 more EXCUSES to continue the behaviors and point the finger at you. He is in full denial and probably plans on staying there.

In case you wonder How I Know ..................... I said those same things and more many times over until I found recovery from alcoholism 28 1/2 years ago.

Then I found out at 3 years sober and clean that I also needed a lot of help with my co-dependency issues.

When you change your actions and reactions toward him, he will start to change his toward you, but it will take a while. He will continue to pull the 'poor me', ie "I'm an azzhole, etc", but you don't have to respond to those comments. Should he start to 'threaten taking his life' then you say 'fine I am calling 911.' that will stop as it is a ploy to get your sympathy any way he can.

Sweetie, you cannot communicate with a bottle, and that is what you are trying to do. And even if he stops for a day or two, there is so much alcohol in him you would still be communicating with a bottle.

How about NOT communicating with him and just working on you. Working on what you would like to do just for YOU. I know for me that started with 'outside' help from both Al-Anon and a counselor.

Please keep posting and let us know how you are doing as we do care very much.

Love and hugs,

barb dwyer

*thanks button thingy here*

FreeingMyself

Again, as usual....I could have posted this...though probably not as eloquently as you put it. THe biggest thing that his me here is my AH's inability to discuss the past, drinking, actually any problem whatsoever with out telling me how controling I am, and what a horrible wife I am...followed by calling out anything he can think of that I am not good at and any horrible names he can come up with....why...to upset me and get me to go away! So I can totally relate to this. It is IMPOSSIBLE to live in a relationship like this because all topics that would lead to any sort of intimacy are off limits....because the AH never lets you in to their real world....I believe because they are not really sure what the "real world" is. I recognize my own unhappiness, and struggle w/ these exact issues with my AH everyday...and keep wondering really when enough will be enough.....we are seperated, but when will I accept reality and know that he is not going to change....and I'm not even refering to the drinking....but his attitude, his hatred, his anger and aggression. Anyway, what I really wanted to say was I am right there with you........

BuffaloGal

Hugs-- you are being extraordinarily patient. And if it weren't geographically improbable I'd be sure you had this conversation with my ex husband.

This board would be unnecessary if we could make our alcoholic associates understand that it is okay to be flawed, that we love them anyway and they can love themselves anyway. Instead, there's this sort of circular: "Oh, no! I'm a bad person cause I drink and ignore my responsibilities! I can't stand it! I can't tolerate it! I better drink some more so I don't feel this! Oh no! I'm a bad person cause I drink..." thing going on, ad infinitum. For awhile I wanted to believe that there was some magic thing I could say to my former husband to let him see himself more clearly. Then after I ran out of patience I just wanted to throttle him.

I see Laurie's point and I see his point: yes, it's manipulative alcoholic whinging. But what you're relating is the kind of self revelation I got from my ex at his most truthful (I've erased several acid comments about alcoholics and truthfulness from this paragraph just now). Of course he wasn't conscious of his impulse to deceive me! He'd put a huge amount of time and effort into becoming unconscious of the extent to which he lies to himself, and he'd got it down pat long before I entered the picture.

The most honest thing he ever said to me was, I have a hard time telling you the truth. And, ya know, no matter how brave it was of him to articulate it, that's just not acceptable. That isn't compatible with a successful marriage. No matter how he got that way; no matter what trauma he suffered as a child, no matter what the circumstances were, no matter how angry I was going to be if I found out... it just isn't okay. It was absolutely a nutty way to live, and it was rotting my heart from the inside. I couldn't leave it be either, so I asked him to move out.

That's not the solution for everyone, but your gut reaction that his reasoning is bonkers is normal, healthy, and sane. Yes, he is messing with your head, whether he realizes it or not (and $20 says that somewhere, waaaaayy down, he does know).

brundle

****Thanks**** I feel I am very close to the same place as you guys. Thanks for posting your feelings so clearly...

naive

translation: he felt bad. he drank. he felt better. you came back. can't drink in the open.

translation: let's get the focus off of me and back onto you.

translation: i am your boss. do as i tell you. i wish you isolated and under my thumb. you threaten me when you communicate with my family, as i prefer them in the dark about my drinking.

translation: leave me to my drinking in peace.

transformyself

Naive, where did you get your alcoholic translator? It's handy!

KeepPedaling

I love Naive's translator. It is SPOT ON!

barb dwyer

As an alcoholic, I have another perspective on this one.
More:

'This is MY secret. I have to control what and when you talk to my family, because you will tell my secret.

hps

naive's take on things is a pretty accurate translation of what I was like when drinking.

For me, the family flip-out would have been for a different reason than what naive was stating.

The overall context is me as an active alcoholic trying to appear to have a normal life. This takes a lot of work as the consequences of drinking are anything but normal. But life is not possible without drinking, or so I felt. The upshot is I felt very exposed, because the gap between normality (the facade I was trying to create) and reality (alcoholic destruction) was so great, and the facade was very vulnerable to collapsing. I would evade any conversation about drinking- because any sane conversation would conclude that I should not be drinking.

So, by you emailing his family without involving him, you are opening lines of communications to them, that he is not controlling. So you and his family might compare notes. So you are making it more difficult for him to maintain his facade of normality to his family. And you are increasing the chances of some sort of intervention on him.

naive

translation: i'm losing my grip on her. my drinking is now threatened. she does love me. perhaps i can manipulate her for longer and therefore, keep drinking in the comfort of her nice, tidy, well-stocked, heated home.

translation: i am not a jerk. i am superman.

translation: i love drink. she is threatening my first love. i will trick her now, so that she pities me and helps me to do basic things that every responsible sober person does but since i am superman, i don't have to do these things if she pities me enough to do them for me.

translation: i will now threaten her with leaving, so that she drops this drink talk. i have no intention of leaving. why would i leave this nice house? plus, her parents give me money, and that means i can drink more.

translation: gee, i wish i could have a drink now, rather than this conversation. if i tell her i hate myself, perhaps she will return to giving me her energy again. at least it will change the subject from my drinking. she doesn't understand, i don't hate myself. i am superhuman and drinking is not a problem. i can handle it. i am special in that way.

translation: i only care about my own satisfaction. i mainly think only about myself. she's getting to be a nuisance now, with this constant harping about my drinking. hmmm....perhaps i should be extra sweet for a day or two, even abstain from drinking, and this will all blow over and things will get back to normal.

NYC_Chick

Wife : I feel for you. I have heard the same things from my xabf. It all boils down to diverting attention from drinking to something else... What you do wrong. It's how you are kept off balance that will allow him to continue drinking.


You are doing really well because you can see this. Someone said on here a long time ago that you can tell when an alcoholic is lying because his lips are moving. It's so true!

FindingPeace1

Oh, such wisdom from you sages!

Do I want to set boundaries, laurie? Yes...no...yes... I am afraid to set boundaries because it would necessitate me leaving. I have them written out. I am just not applying them to my marriage in my mind (does that make sense?) So I am hiding from my own boundaries to stay for a bit longer...I have said I want to give he and I 6 months, but really I am just hiding in the 6 months to avoid gathering the strength to leave. So I may cling. To continue to enjoy the good stuff.
On the other hand, 6 months is a reasonable thing. I am doing self work. So, as always, its all true. The sacred and the profane. One doesn't wipe the other out, but it all exists together.

I put on my to do list to contact a local therapist. I decided when he refused couples counseling that I should go myself. He asked if I was really going to therapy.
Yep! I said.
Well, I don't want to be in a relationship with someone that has to do therapy, he replied.
That's your choice, I said.
Yes, it is! He said mocking my tone. (He's still not going anywhere. It's just threats. )

I told him I had work to do. I am codependent. I want to change him. I need to work on acceptance and choices and boundaries. I said, for example, I think his lying is a big deal and he doesn't. (The night I confronted him, he said, "You're making way too big a deal out of this.") I want that to change, and him to see lying as a big deal, but he won't. That's my own work.
Well, that put him in a state! He didn't want to look like a jerk, but he doesn't want to deal with it either. Stuck! Kind of amusing, in a sad way. He got up to leave (running away is one of his tactics, I'm sure you all are familiar with it...). Don't run, I said. Still, he was trapped. Fine! He said. You're right! You're right! But in that way of: I'm shut down and not even listening to myself because I am just ending this so I don't have to deal way (you know the one?).
He then got up to sleep on the couch.

I am definitely not my old self.
My self work is wringing him out like a wet towel.
Meanwhile, it is gathering the pieces of me up.
I am developing the boundaries of my skin - my heart.
I am budding wings.

I have growing pains, for sure.
But I feel the recognition of the puzzle pieces of myself as they collect into myself.
Fly back to me from the dark recesses of my past where I dropped them and walked away years ago.
They have been waiting for me, in the dark,
forgotten, but alive.
I didn't know. I didn't know.

And perhaps, when it is said that we must set boundaries, there is no work to do, but define ourselves. Run our minds along our outlines and find the holes.

Perhaps the meaning is that we recollect who we are so that WE have boundaries. Our edges. Ourselves. Our souls.
Perhaps when we do so, others can't impact us as before because we have a line to distinguish us from all else. The meaning of the word 'boundary'. Where we leave off and the rest begins. How we protect ourselves - understand ourselves.

I have been in the world casting no shadow, as I had no edge.
Feeling everyone's feelings, as I had no separation between myself and the world.
I am building myself from slivers of myself, scattered back to my childhood. Pieces given away or stolen,
lost, forgotten,
mourned or unknown, left.

But it is as if, as the pieces come together,
I melt, as a moth or butterfly once did, and recreate myself.
I need all those parts, but they are not static.
They are the understanding of myself.
They are the matter that provides the ground to metamorphose.
I feel it.
I feel it as I wrap myself in my own silk.
Trusting I can melt into myself and will reemerge,
whole and new.

Wife

FindingPeace1

I just reread this line! We "re-collect" who we are! A double meaning! "Remember" AND "collect again." I love it.

Cowgirl1265

My husband did this to me for years, and for a long time I thought like you do that any concern was making him feel bad. I now realize that it is a control mechanism. It is his way of making me afraid to raise any concern whatsoever, so that he will never have to be confronted with anything that might suggest he make a change in his behavior.

FindingPeace1

absolutely right.

What a crummy way to feel.

I rejoice I can feel pain - and let it be clean pain! Pain I can move through!

littlefish

Just out of curiosity, how many of these discussions do you have with him when he is in some stage of intoxication?
Do you attach the same amount of importance to things he says when he is drunk as when he is sober?
Can you tell when he has been drinking?

FindingPeace1

Crazy thing is, I have NO idea when he's been drinking. The last time I remember him drunk was YEARS ago. He drinks almost entirely in secret (well, now that I have confronted him, he is totally underground). I can't smell it on him, I don't notice him drunk - nothing. Either he doesn't drink much or he is well adjusted to it. No way to know. He keeps his drinking a secret. Don't know when he does it. Either on the way to or from work, at work, or in the middle of the night. The night is my best bet. He doesn't sleep well.
I did find his empty stash, I have found his hidden stash many times through the years. I know he is drinking. I know he hides it. He even admitted he hides it because he thinks it makes me uncomfortable.
He went as far as to find an article that said that 2 glasses of wine a night was good for your health and he insisted that's just what he drinks. <sigh>

But it makes me think of my parents. My mother said she have these deep conversations with my dad when they were drinking in the evening. He would acknowledge things, pledge to change, all that. In the morning it was like it had never happened. That's not my story.
Doesn't matter.
I am having a good day. Full of loving-compassion for his misery. Excited about my own growth. Okay with whatever comes. Living in THIS moment as it arises and passes.
What will be will be.

Peace.