Arresting pregnant women is bad for babies
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Arresting pregnant women is bad for babies
Hi Everybody
This is just food for thought. We have some pretty charged conversations about pregnant women who use drugs or alcohol, and it makes sense. We're all working to recover from our codependance and have had our lives disrupted, at best, by alcoholism and addiction.
I do some volunteer work writing for the woman who runs this non-profit and I"m sharing this article with you in hopes that you can see an alternate side of the story. I'm aware that this is a very charged issue, and truly hope this will help some folks feel better, not create a firestorm of emotion that causes more work for the mods.
The primary message I want to send is that Women who use drugs while pregnant are not doing so because they don't care about their babies. and also that scientific evidence about drug using mothers is very different from how it is portrayed in the media and on the news.
Yes, we can argue that they're selfish. Yes, we argue and struggle with understanding the destructive behavior of the A's in our lives. Some folks behavior (such as abusers, gamblers and others) stand outside of the explanation of alcoholism. But I've come to a place here at SR and in my life where I work to not hate or demonize my AH. It's part of detachment. It's part of my recovery.
Thanks!
Transform
Arresting pregnant women is bad for babies: Kentucky Case Progresses and Advocates Speak Out
National Advocates for Pregnant Women: Arresting pregnant women is bad for babies: Kentucky Case Progresses and Advocates Speak Out
Tomorrow, December 10, 2009 the Kentucky Supreme Court will hear oral argument in a case involving the prosecution of a pregnant, drug-using woman. It is an important opportunity to understand the broader issues at stake in cases that seem narrowly focused on the very small percentage of pregnant women who use illegal drugs.
In this case, the state arrested a new mother who, according to the Commonwealth of Kentucky, “ingested cocaine” while her daughter “was in utero and thereafter gave birth.” The daughter was healthy but, according to the Commonwealth, both the mother and newborn tested positive for cocaine. The new mother wasn’t charged with a drug crime – rather she was charged with the crime of “wanton endangerment.” Kentucky alleges that she engaged “in conduct which created a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury to” another person – her “unborn” child.
Notice that this law is directed to “conduct” that “creates a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury.” Many people in positions of power think that a pregnant woman who refuses cesarean surgery, have births outside of hospital settings, or insists on a vaginal birth after previous cesarean surgery is creating a “substantial danger of death or serious physical injury” to an unborn child.
The Commonwealth wants the Kentucky Supreme Court to interpret this law, and, in fact, every criminal law in the state, to include pregnant women in relationship to the fetuses they carry. Indeed, a close reading of the lower court’s opinion and the Commonwealth’s arguments makes clear that they hope, through this court case, to pass what would, in effect, be a “personhood measure.” As a result, even abortions necessary to protect a woman’s life or health could be charged as homicide.
Because of the broad implications of this case and the medical misinformation it relies on, sixty public health and advocacy organizations as well as numerous experts signed on to amicus (friend of the court) briefs explaining why the court should reject the Commonwealth’s invitation to radically re-write state law. Not a single organization filed an amicus brief supporting this kind of dangerous judicial activism. Kentucky treatment and recovery advocates Michael Barry and Pam Scott published an op-ed in the Courier-Journal explaining why Arresting pregnant women is bad for babies.
Here is what they have to say:
On Dec. 10, 2009, the Kentucky Supreme court will consider a case involving a woman who gave birth and got arrested. In this case the Commonwealth claims that because a cocaine-using pregnant woman went to term, she should be punished for the crime of “wanton endangerment” for threatening the health of her “unborn” child. Two other women were recently arrested on similar grounds.
Here are five surprising reasons why arresting pregnant drug-using women is a bad idea:
Threatening pregnant women with arrest is bad for babies. Babies have the best birth outcomes when their mothers are not afraid to come in for health care, not afraid to talk honestly to their health care providers, and when they can find the right kind of help for their problems. This explains why threatening pregnant women with arrest and prosecution is bad for babies.
While using drugs, smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, and many other things can create risks, the good news is women who get health care during pregnancy, whether or not they can overcome an addiction, can have healthy babies. Women who are afraid that getting health care will lead to arrest often stop coming in for health care, or if they go, keep their drug problems secret. This is one reason why every medical group in the country to address the issue, including the March of Dimes and the American Academy of Pediatrics, oppose prosecution of pregnant women.
Threatening arrests and prosecutions create an incentive for women to have abortions. Given how hard it is for most people to overcome an addiction problem quickly (even strong and successful people like Rush Limbaugh) laws that threaten to punish women who carry their pregnancies to term in spite of a drug problem puts pressure on them to get unwanted abortions. In North Dakota, a woman was arrested on charges similar to those in Kentucky. She was twelve weeks pregnant at the time and managed to obtain an abortion. The result? The prosecutor dropped the criminal charges citing the fact that she had “terminated her pregnancy.” Indeed, if the Kentucky Supreme Court uses the current case to permit prosecution of women who “endanger” their unborn children, we might as well post signs saying: “If you are pregnant and can't achieve abstinence immediately, have an abortion now, before you get arrested.”
Education, health care, and support work. For years Kentucky has led the country in applying proven methods for helping drug using women. Since Kentucky adopted laws supporting education and treatment over arrest, it has seen a dramatic increase in the number of women receiving prenatal care. In 1990, Kentucky was ranked 26th out of 50 states for prenatal care. In 2000, Kentucky improved its rank to 11th. Infant mortality rates fell 25 percent during that decade and in 2001, Kentucky reported the lowest infant mortality rate since statistics were first recorded. In contrast, South Carolina, the only state that has upheld the prosecution of women who go to term in spite of a drug problem, ranks near the bottom of the list on infant mortality.
Women who use drugs while pregnant are not doing so because they don't care about their babies. The truth is lots of people use drugs — legal and illegal. Some become addicted and just like people who struggle with obesity and hypertension, most would like to change their behaviors, but find that they can't do so immediately or without the right kind of help. Kentucky does have some specialized programs for women — but not yet nearly enough. Threatening arrest doesn't help them or their babies. And the good news is that we have much less to fear than we thought if recovery is not immediate.
What the medical research says about cocaine use and pregnancy is very different from what most people have heard on the news. Scientific experts as well as leading government agencies now confirm that the use of cocaine is not uniquely or inevitably harmful. The National Institute for Drug Abuse has reported that while babies born to mothers who used cocaine while pregnant “were at one time written off by many as a lost generation... It was later found that this was a gross exaggeration.” And, as the U.S. Sentencing Commission concluded, “[t]he negative effects of prenatal cocaine exposure are significantly less severe than previously believed” and those negative effects “do not differ from the effects of prenatal exposure to other drugs, both legal and illegal.” While health experts do not say that there are no health risks associated with cocaine use during pregnancy, the good news is that they overwhelmingly agree that the risks are comparable to cigarettes and less than the possible harm from excessive alcohol use. Exaggerated claims of harm from illegal drugs should not provide the cover for drastically changing Kentucky law, to permit treating pregnant women who do any of these things as criminals.
MIKE BARRY, CEO, People Advocating Recovery
PAM SCOTT, Director, The Healing Place for Women, Louisville 40203
Posted by Cassandra Burrows on December 9, 2009 11:58 AM
This is just food for thought. We have some pretty charged conversations about pregnant women who use drugs or alcohol, and it makes sense. We're all working to recover from our codependance and have had our lives disrupted, at best, by alcoholism and addiction.
I do some volunteer work writing for the woman who runs this non-profit and I"m sharing this article with you in hopes that you can see an alternate side of the story. I'm aware that this is a very charged issue, and truly hope this will help some folks feel better, not create a firestorm of emotion that causes more work for the mods.
The primary message I want to send is that Women who use drugs while pregnant are not doing so because they don't care about their babies. and also that scientific evidence about drug using mothers is very different from how it is portrayed in the media and on the news.
Yes, we can argue that they're selfish. Yes, we argue and struggle with understanding the destructive behavior of the A's in our lives. Some folks behavior (such as abusers, gamblers and others) stand outside of the explanation of alcoholism. But I've come to a place here at SR and in my life where I work to not hate or demonize my AH. It's part of detachment. It's part of my recovery.
Thanks!
Transform
Arresting pregnant women is bad for babies: Kentucky Case Progresses and Advocates Speak Out
National Advocates for Pregnant Women: Arresting pregnant women is bad for babies: Kentucky Case Progresses and Advocates Speak Out
Tomorrow, December 10, 2009 the Kentucky Supreme Court will hear oral argument in a case involving the prosecution of a pregnant, drug-using woman. It is an important opportunity to understand the broader issues at stake in cases that seem narrowly focused on the very small percentage of pregnant women who use illegal drugs.
In this case, the state arrested a new mother who, according to the Commonwealth of Kentucky, “ingested cocaine” while her daughter “was in utero and thereafter gave birth.” The daughter was healthy but, according to the Commonwealth, both the mother and newborn tested positive for cocaine. The new mother wasn’t charged with a drug crime – rather she was charged with the crime of “wanton endangerment.” Kentucky alleges that she engaged “in conduct which created a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury to” another person – her “unborn” child.
Notice that this law is directed to “conduct” that “creates a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury.” Many people in positions of power think that a pregnant woman who refuses cesarean surgery, have births outside of hospital settings, or insists on a vaginal birth after previous cesarean surgery is creating a “substantial danger of death or serious physical injury” to an unborn child.
The Commonwealth wants the Kentucky Supreme Court to interpret this law, and, in fact, every criminal law in the state, to include pregnant women in relationship to the fetuses they carry. Indeed, a close reading of the lower court’s opinion and the Commonwealth’s arguments makes clear that they hope, through this court case, to pass what would, in effect, be a “personhood measure.” As a result, even abortions necessary to protect a woman’s life or health could be charged as homicide.
Because of the broad implications of this case and the medical misinformation it relies on, sixty public health and advocacy organizations as well as numerous experts signed on to amicus (friend of the court) briefs explaining why the court should reject the Commonwealth’s invitation to radically re-write state law. Not a single organization filed an amicus brief supporting this kind of dangerous judicial activism. Kentucky treatment and recovery advocates Michael Barry and Pam Scott published an op-ed in the Courier-Journal explaining why Arresting pregnant women is bad for babies.
Here is what they have to say:
On Dec. 10, 2009, the Kentucky Supreme court will consider a case involving a woman who gave birth and got arrested. In this case the Commonwealth claims that because a cocaine-using pregnant woman went to term, she should be punished for the crime of “wanton endangerment” for threatening the health of her “unborn” child. Two other women were recently arrested on similar grounds.
Here are five surprising reasons why arresting pregnant drug-using women is a bad idea:
Threatening pregnant women with arrest is bad for babies. Babies have the best birth outcomes when their mothers are not afraid to come in for health care, not afraid to talk honestly to their health care providers, and when they can find the right kind of help for their problems. This explains why threatening pregnant women with arrest and prosecution is bad for babies.
While using drugs, smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, and many other things can create risks, the good news is women who get health care during pregnancy, whether or not they can overcome an addiction, can have healthy babies. Women who are afraid that getting health care will lead to arrest often stop coming in for health care, or if they go, keep their drug problems secret. This is one reason why every medical group in the country to address the issue, including the March of Dimes and the American Academy of Pediatrics, oppose prosecution of pregnant women.
Threatening arrests and prosecutions create an incentive for women to have abortions. Given how hard it is for most people to overcome an addiction problem quickly (even strong and successful people like Rush Limbaugh) laws that threaten to punish women who carry their pregnancies to term in spite of a drug problem puts pressure on them to get unwanted abortions. In North Dakota, a woman was arrested on charges similar to those in Kentucky. She was twelve weeks pregnant at the time and managed to obtain an abortion. The result? The prosecutor dropped the criminal charges citing the fact that she had “terminated her pregnancy.” Indeed, if the Kentucky Supreme Court uses the current case to permit prosecution of women who “endanger” their unborn children, we might as well post signs saying: “If you are pregnant and can't achieve abstinence immediately, have an abortion now, before you get arrested.”
Education, health care, and support work. For years Kentucky has led the country in applying proven methods for helping drug using women. Since Kentucky adopted laws supporting education and treatment over arrest, it has seen a dramatic increase in the number of women receiving prenatal care. In 1990, Kentucky was ranked 26th out of 50 states for prenatal care. In 2000, Kentucky improved its rank to 11th. Infant mortality rates fell 25 percent during that decade and in 2001, Kentucky reported the lowest infant mortality rate since statistics were first recorded. In contrast, South Carolina, the only state that has upheld the prosecution of women who go to term in spite of a drug problem, ranks near the bottom of the list on infant mortality.
Women who use drugs while pregnant are not doing so because they don't care about their babies. The truth is lots of people use drugs — legal and illegal. Some become addicted and just like people who struggle with obesity and hypertension, most would like to change their behaviors, but find that they can't do so immediately or without the right kind of help. Kentucky does have some specialized programs for women — but not yet nearly enough. Threatening arrest doesn't help them or their babies. And the good news is that we have much less to fear than we thought if recovery is not immediate.
What the medical research says about cocaine use and pregnancy is very different from what most people have heard on the news. Scientific experts as well as leading government agencies now confirm that the use of cocaine is not uniquely or inevitably harmful. The National Institute for Drug Abuse has reported that while babies born to mothers who used cocaine while pregnant “were at one time written off by many as a lost generation... It was later found that this was a gross exaggeration.” And, as the U.S. Sentencing Commission concluded, “[t]he negative effects of prenatal cocaine exposure are significantly less severe than previously believed” and those negative effects “do not differ from the effects of prenatal exposure to other drugs, both legal and illegal.” While health experts do not say that there are no health risks associated with cocaine use during pregnancy, the good news is that they overwhelmingly agree that the risks are comparable to cigarettes and less than the possible harm from excessive alcohol use. Exaggerated claims of harm from illegal drugs should not provide the cover for drastically changing Kentucky law, to permit treating pregnant women who do any of these things as criminals.
MIKE BARRY, CEO, People Advocating Recovery
PAM SCOTT, Director, The Healing Place for Women, Louisville 40203
Posted by Cassandra Burrows on December 9, 2009 11:58 AM
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Well, I read it and didn't comment because I was a little mystified at what to write...I would have just liked to "thank" Gerrry's comment, really.
I will say, that when I find an emotionally charged topic on these boards that has people riled up, with threads closing and all that, I try to stay away from reigniting any fires. I think I will continue with that and not comment directly on your article.
I will say, that when I find an emotionally charged topic on these boards that has people riled up, with threads closing and all that, I try to stay away from reigniting any fires. I think I will continue with that and not comment directly on your article.
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 689
Transform, I am not pregnant, don't foresee myself getting pregnant and I don't know anyone who is pregnant who is addicted to substances , but...
I still found this article to be an interesting read. Thanks for posting it!
I still found this article to be an interesting read. Thanks for posting it!
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Location: Northen Europe and France
Posts: 1,657
Transformyself.
I like this article and the discussion. Iīve already stated in another thread that I behaved recklessly as a young teenaged mother, but my daughter didnīt manifest any ill effects. I have to live with that knowledge for the rest of my life and whenever she has the flu or manifests mood changes I want to kick myself. It never goes away.
Itīs here where "...accepting the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can and the wisdom to know the difference" comes in.
All I can do is be happy that things went better than expected and that Iīve been clean and sober for more than twenty years.
I agree with the article. We donīt have laws like that here in Europe, at least not that Iīm aware of. Itīs not possible to control everything that pregnant women consume - and I think it would be wrong in any case - but of course, every person in the medical field tries to recommend a healthy lifestyle.
It is only in extreme cases when child support is called in, because it can has adverse effect and women under a lot of pressure can lose the baby. Stress is a very high risk factor. I do agree with you that trying to control and demonize your AH is not recovery, itīs in fact the opposite. I struggled with this for years until I started to work the program and use detachement.
I like this article and the discussion. Iīve already stated in another thread that I behaved recklessly as a young teenaged mother, but my daughter didnīt manifest any ill effects. I have to live with that knowledge for the rest of my life and whenever she has the flu or manifests mood changes I want to kick myself. It never goes away.
Itīs here where "...accepting the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can and the wisdom to know the difference" comes in.
All I can do is be happy that things went better than expected and that Iīve been clean and sober for more than twenty years.
I agree with the article. We donīt have laws like that here in Europe, at least not that Iīm aware of. Itīs not possible to control everything that pregnant women consume - and I think it would be wrong in any case - but of course, every person in the medical field tries to recommend a healthy lifestyle.
It is only in extreme cases when child support is called in, because it can has adverse effect and women under a lot of pressure can lose the baby. Stress is a very high risk factor. I do agree with you that trying to control and demonize your AH is not recovery, itīs in fact the opposite. I struggled with this for years until I started to work the program and use detachement.
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,888
The unborn baby factor aside...
I am surprised by the idea of arresting someone post drug consumption and after the fact. Same as we wouldn't want to arrest someone as they walk into rehab high on illegal substances. We'll take them into recovery any way we can get them.
Has anyone heard of an addict who was arrested for substances used prior to arriving at rehab? I've heard of addicts having illegal drugs on them when they went to rehab and weren't arrested for possession.
The negligence in caring for an unborn baby is a whole 'nother can of worms. As a childless person by choice, I can't speak to it. It does outrage me, though, that women put their babies at risk with drugs, smoking, and excessive alcohol of course, but not enough to drive them away from receiving healthcare or recovery for the baby's sake, which is what I think cops in the maternity ward would cause.
I never would have known of such a thing happening if you hadn't posted it, Transform.
** Heavy issues are tough to discuss openly, I agree, but I consider it part of my recovery to be able to hear about and talk about potentially hot collar topics without making it personal and derailling my sanity. I can't live like a hermit but I can't go wild if I hear about something that upsets me either.
Much respect.
Alice
I am surprised by the idea of arresting someone post drug consumption and after the fact. Same as we wouldn't want to arrest someone as they walk into rehab high on illegal substances. We'll take them into recovery any way we can get them.
Has anyone heard of an addict who was arrested for substances used prior to arriving at rehab? I've heard of addicts having illegal drugs on them when they went to rehab and weren't arrested for possession.
The negligence in caring for an unborn baby is a whole 'nother can of worms. As a childless person by choice, I can't speak to it. It does outrage me, though, that women put their babies at risk with drugs, smoking, and excessive alcohol of course, but not enough to drive them away from receiving healthcare or recovery for the baby's sake, which is what I think cops in the maternity ward would cause.
I never would have known of such a thing happening if you hadn't posted it, Transform.
** Heavy issues are tough to discuss openly, I agree, but I consider it part of my recovery to be able to hear about and talk about potentially hot collar topics without making it personal and derailling my sanity. I can't live like a hermit but I can't go wild if I hear about something that upsets me either.
Much respect.
Alice
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Thank you Transform, understandably this is a contentious topic. Pregnancy in my experience is something that many people have "views" about. But I think information is always a valuable thing. Especially on topics where people make gut judgements. Having said that, I'm not sure this is quite the forum for this.
Hugs
Hugs
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Humbly submitted:
Would you arrest someone who was driving drunk, caused an horrific accident in which someone was critically injured or killed, but the driver walked away? If police found out who the driver was, tracked the driver down in a rehab facility, what then? Don't arrest the person because they have finally reached out for help?
Would you arrest someone who was driving drunk, caused an horrific accident in which someone was critically injured or killed, but the driver walked away? If police found out who the driver was, tracked the driver down in a rehab facility, what then? Don't arrest the person because they have finally reached out for help?
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Posts: 534
Good article, Transform.
Hydrogirl, people often are able to offer up their addiction and rehab to mitigate crimes. Aside from that, your analogy is weak. We're talking about public policy reasons for enacting laws here. There is no public policy reason to not arrest the drunk driver. There are several public policy reasons to not arrest pregnant addicts, which are outlined in the article, but probably the most important is that an addict who finds herself pregnant will not seek help for her addiction if she knows or wonders whether she'll be arrested. A drunk person who drives under the influence isn't going to be arrested for merely trying to seek help and he never has to wonder about this.
Hydrogirl, people often are able to offer up their addiction and rehab to mitigate crimes. Aside from that, your analogy is weak. We're talking about public policy reasons for enacting laws here. There is no public policy reason to not arrest the drunk driver. There are several public policy reasons to not arrest pregnant addicts, which are outlined in the article, but probably the most important is that an addict who finds herself pregnant will not seek help for her addiction if she knows or wonders whether she'll be arrested. A drunk person who drives under the influence isn't going to be arrested for merely trying to seek help and he never has to wonder about this.
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I should always be about what's best for the baby (and ideally the baby AND the mother) and not about how to punish the mother. It seems it's best for both to provide them with best-possible access to pre- (and post-) natal healthcare that does not pose a threat in any way.
I cannot even imagine the possible consequences of starting to go after women for behavior during pregnancy.
I cannot even imagine the possible consequences of starting to go after women for behavior during pregnancy.
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If police found out who the driver was, tracked the driver down in a rehab facility, what then? Don't arrest the person because they have finally reached out for help?
I bet it happens more than we know that someone will go straight to rehab to try to avoid arrest for a DUI having fled the scene of an accident, but of course we would expect them to be arrested.
The connection I see you making, hydro, alcohol plus driving a car causing injury to other with drugs while pregnant. It's the threat and harm being inflicted on others that's the focus.
I think it's with the baby that there is a gray area. There are so many things a pregnant woman can be exposed to that could harm her unborn baby many factors being beyond her control. I certainly wouldn't want to go down the road of monitoring pregnant women for everything from caffeine consumption to exposure to smog living in a large city.
I bet it happens more than we know that someone will go straight to rehab to try to avoid arrest for a DUI having fled the scene of an accident, but of course we would expect them to be arrested.
The connection I see you making, hydro, alcohol plus driving a car causing injury to other with drugs while pregnant. It's the threat and harm being inflicted on others that's the focus.
I think it's with the baby that there is a gray area. There are so many things a pregnant woman can be exposed to that could harm her unborn baby many factors being beyond her control. I certainly wouldn't want to go down the road of monitoring pregnant women for everything from caffeine consumption to exposure to smog living in a large city.
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
Thank you Transform,
I found this article very interesting and insightful. I believe that building knowledge on what is going on in the world around me is a big part of my recovery; I am particularly interested in human rights, having my own curtailed for such a long time!
I think this article will be of benefit to many, not least to the parents of addicted children who may be witnessing or have concern over their daughter falling pregnant whilst using.
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxx
I found this article very interesting and insightful. I believe that building knowledge on what is going on in the world around me is a big part of my recovery; I am particularly interested in human rights, having my own curtailed for such a long time!
I think this article will be of benefit to many, not least to the parents of addicted children who may be witnessing or have concern over their daughter falling pregnant whilst using.
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxx
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
Originally Posted by good_luck 
I will say, that when I find an emotionally charged topic on these boards that has people riled up, with threads closing and all that, I try to stay away from reigniting any fires. I think I will continue with that and not comment directly on your article.
I would not say that it is discussion or conflict that are problematic per say, these are inevitable parts of human life and a way in which many learn and grow, if open to learning. I personally think that problems arise when people are not 'allowed' to have an opinion or insight or cannot convey their difference in a respectful manner.
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
I've read more than once that Kentucky...
is the best state in the Union to be a woman.
Women are treated better there (legally, socially)
than in any other state in the USA.
So I'm not particularly surprised
that it's Kentucky
trying to do things differently.
is the best state in the Union to be a woman.
Women are treated better there (legally, socially)
than in any other state in the USA.
So I'm not particularly surprised
that it's Kentucky
trying to do things differently.
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
I grew up in Kentucky, Lexington to be precise. And....this is a much more complicated issue than can be debated in a forum such as this. What are the statistics regarding pregnancy and drug abuse? What sort of drugs? Are certain drugs not as bad in utero than others? How about once the child is born? What are the statistics regarding child abuse of children living with parents in active addiction? We know that addicts are very likely to relapse. If we provide help to pregnant women and somehow "keep" them clean while pregnant, wouldn't it be likley that they would relapse at some point exposing a child to that life?
Certainly I'm not suggesting pregnant women should be arrested. I can fully admit that I don't know the answer, but I do believe that children should be protected. It is a complicated and painful topic.
Best, HG
Certainly I'm not suggesting pregnant women should be arrested. I can fully admit that I don't know the answer, but I do believe that children should be protected. It is a complicated and painful topic.
Best, HG
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Posts: 1,888
I agree Hydro, but I think you'd also agree that being the loved one of an addict is also a complicated and painful topic yet here we are.
I see this article as a topic that is appropriate here. How many times have folks come here seeking answers to what can be done for their addict child who's pregnant yet again. How can they help them reach bottom? Can they get them arrested? Will jail solve the problem? What can a parent do with a child who comes home addicted and pregnant wanted to be housed and receive medical care? How many times have we try to support someone as they vent their frustrations feeling that there is no state or federal law to help them save their grandchild or force their addict child to get clean.
I appreciate that it's a touch subject and encompasses a lot of issues, but I think the discussion can be had in a calm way to be of help here. For instance, while the idea of this woman's arrest may be just what frustrated parents may find themselves wanting to have done to save their unborn grandchild, as you've said it really isn't so simple an answer and parents and loved ones can be helped by hearing that point of view.
Alice
I see this article as a topic that is appropriate here. How many times have folks come here seeking answers to what can be done for their addict child who's pregnant yet again. How can they help them reach bottom? Can they get them arrested? Will jail solve the problem? What can a parent do with a child who comes home addicted and pregnant wanted to be housed and receive medical care? How many times have we try to support someone as they vent their frustrations feeling that there is no state or federal law to help them save their grandchild or force their addict child to get clean.
I appreciate that it's a touch subject and encompasses a lot of issues, but I think the discussion can be had in a calm way to be of help here. For instance, while the idea of this woman's arrest may be just what frustrated parents may find themselves wanting to have done to save their unborn grandchild, as you've said it really isn't so simple an answer and parents and loved ones can be helped by hearing that point of view.
Alice
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Thank you, one and all, for maintaining a dignified discourse here.
I too thought this was especially relevant to our forum. We are friends and family of addicts and alcoholics. I work in drug policy reform and largly by accident. I was recruited as a writer for a non profit law enforcement organization that educates the public about the failed policy we call the war on drugs.
After, I learned more horrific things that I ever wanted. I started volunteering for the woman running this amazing nonprofit after learning about attacks pregnant women endure under the so called war on drugs.
When you think of women’s rights, or women’s reproductive rights, you think abortion. But for poor women and women of color, the ability to end a pregnancy is not what determines their ability to be full and equal participants in our society. More often, the issues include the ability to access health care, prenatal care, (if necessary treatment for their drug and alcohol addiction), and to have the opportunity to bring children into the world that they can love, support, and raise in a safe environment.
The use of drugs is not a situation we can arrest our way out of, we've had 40 years to prove that and drugs are more strong, cheaper and easy to obtain than ever. If arresting drug users or alcoholics or drug dealers worked--the US would have no problems! We are the most incarcerated nation on the planet, mostly non violent drug offenders.
This is a health issue, not a criminal issue, best left between a person and their physician.
Now, for folks like us, who are working to recover from our relationships with A's and addicts, this can be very very tricky. I certainly have a lot of anger and fear built up toward my AH. I can imagine how I would feel were he my wife and pregnant. Oh, the things I would do to him/her to try to stop the using while pregnant. I can imagine because I've done extraordinary things to my AH, attempting to somehow get him to stop drinking--all to no avail!
I too thought this was especially relevant to our forum. We are friends and family of addicts and alcoholics. I work in drug policy reform and largly by accident. I was recruited as a writer for a non profit law enforcement organization that educates the public about the failed policy we call the war on drugs.
After, I learned more horrific things that I ever wanted. I started volunteering for the woman running this amazing nonprofit after learning about attacks pregnant women endure under the so called war on drugs.
When you think of women’s rights, or women’s reproductive rights, you think abortion. But for poor women and women of color, the ability to end a pregnancy is not what determines their ability to be full and equal participants in our society. More often, the issues include the ability to access health care, prenatal care, (if necessary treatment for their drug and alcohol addiction), and to have the opportunity to bring children into the world that they can love, support, and raise in a safe environment.
The use of drugs is not a situation we can arrest our way out of, we've had 40 years to prove that and drugs are more strong, cheaper and easy to obtain than ever. If arresting drug users or alcoholics or drug dealers worked--the US would have no problems! We are the most incarcerated nation on the planet, mostly non violent drug offenders.
This is a health issue, not a criminal issue, best left between a person and their physician.
Now, for folks like us, who are working to recover from our relationships with A's and addicts, this can be very very tricky. I certainly have a lot of anger and fear built up toward my AH. I can imagine how I would feel were he my wife and pregnant. Oh, the things I would do to him/her to try to stop the using while pregnant. I can imagine because I've done extraordinary things to my AH, attempting to somehow get him to stop drinking--all to no avail!
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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OKay. I will likely get lasted for this.
Although I feel sorry for addicts (yes, I actually do feel badly for them), I think that as a pregnant woman you have a responsibility that extends beyond you (duh). If a woman is caught using while pregnant, then for the sake of the child I do believe that she should be (not arrested per se) put in some sort of housing or required for testing.
I do not know the answer, but if a user is harming another then they must be held accountable.
Although I feel sorry for addicts (yes, I actually do feel badly for them), I think that as a pregnant woman you have a responsibility that extends beyond you (duh). If a woman is caught using while pregnant, then for the sake of the child I do believe that she should be (not arrested per se) put in some sort of housing or required for testing.
I do not know the answer, but if a user is harming another then they must be held accountable.
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