My introduction for your input..
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 11
My introduction for your input..
I met a man 7 months ago. I live on the East Coast, He in the West. We have been spending time together, met each others children, families...ect. Planned a wedding for September. I flew out and we were going to marry then in Sept., but it was busy finding a place, visiting family ..ect.so we decided that we (myself and children) would fly out on Oct. 1st and we would marry then. While I was out there, we picked out a new place that would accomadate all of us......things are progressing nicely. During my last trip there he asked me to attend an AA Meeting with him. He has just celebrated his 12th year of sobriety in August.Returned home and began the process to move. Gave my notice where I live, gave my notice at work gave away alot of stuff that I could not bring. At the end of last week..he sounds different when we talk..short, insensitive, stressed... stops calling 3 times a-day and I begin to ask questions. What is going on, he became defensive and slowly shut me out over the course of a week. Called off the 10/1 move... Will not talk to me he only says that he is overwhelmed and has to take care of him-self. I love this man and am lost.....The only thing I know is that when I was at the meeting with him this woman told me to join Al-Anon.
It is something that I did not pay attention to at the time....but here I am..............................any input would be GREATLY appreciated.
It is something that I did not pay attention to at the time....but here I am..............................any input would be GREATLY appreciated.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Ayer's Cliff, Quebec
Posts: 803
Hi,
Hopefully you can get your place back and your job back. The only thing I can say is move where he is if you want to but not in with him until you find out what is wrong if you want to that is at this point, but personally I'd focus on taking care of you not moving at all. It sounds pretty wierd to me what he is doing especially now after you are tearing up roots. The only person you can depend on is you and obviously not on him. Take care of you first.
Ngaire
Hopefully you can get your place back and your job back. The only thing I can say is move where he is if you want to but not in with him until you find out what is wrong if you want to that is at this point, but personally I'd focus on taking care of you not moving at all. It sounds pretty wierd to me what he is doing especially now after you are tearing up roots. The only person you can depend on is you and obviously not on him. Take care of you first.
Ngaire
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 11
Why is he and you and everyone so centered on taking care of themselves? What is it that I am missing? "Me" seems so selfish. But tht is all that I am hearing. If Al-Anon says take care of yourself 1st and AA says take care of yourself 1st, and I have been encouraged to join Al-Anon where is the middle? We had a commitment over a long period of time. My first priority is my children, family and my relationship and other commitments that I have in life. I have been taught to care for all of those around me and myself. This is a differnent journey than I could have imagined?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 11
Also, There is no more place, it has been rented and my job filled because it has been over two weeks since I gave my notices..But he said"it will all work out." when I asked him what are we to do?
This is a nightmare.........
This is a nightmare.........
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 11
Finally, he did tell me that his sponsor, who I met , told him he should stop and take care of himself first.....AA seems to be the word of God and there are no bending of those "Me" rules..am I wrong?
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 75
drisc, (((hugs))) I am sorry for your situation. Is there any way you can stay put for a little bit in a different place? My situation in some ways is very similar to yours. However, we did not have marriage plans by any means. I went out with someone all summer, spent time together in the US and made plans for the fall. The day after I returned home I learned he was an A and all our plans are called off. Apparently his sponsor has has a big say in ending our relationship. Your situation is different because your A has lots of sobriety and you are planning to marry. However, the confusion and hurt you now have is proably a lot like mine. I just started going to Al-anon with the suggestion from members of this great group. I am still figuring out this "work on yourself stuff" because I feel like I do, and that this change has changed so many things for me in a way I don't want or like. I felt really ready for this relationship and it seemed great while it was happening. It must be awful to have all your plans in question now. I don't have a lot of advice because I know it really hurts, but I have been sticking around reading posts, attending meetings and trying to figure out how to not have this hurt so much. I do suggest trying Al-anon though-people were very welcoming and it is now something I look forward to attending.
Learning to love life...
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 529
Hi drisc,
A HEALTHY relationship involves two individuals who are whole and happy, and who both have a desire to share their experiences.
When one is involved with an addict/alcoholic, it is more often than not the case that he/she becomes (or is already) codependant. Meaning that this person becomes obsessed with the others life and dysfunction, that they neglect themselves.
For example:
My husband is an Addict / Alcohlic. When he was in his most active phase, I did and said anything to deter his using, or make him stop. It became my "mission" to find a cure, and I ended up taking on his disease. What happened in the end, was that I lost sense of who I was.
This is how Alanon has helped me.
The first lesson I learned is that I HAVE to take care of myself first; if I am acting and making decisions based on someone else's ideas and thinking, I am in danger of self-neglect.
And I know how hard it is to understand.
When I first got married, I thought of it as "two souls, becoming one"... you know all that romantic stuff. But it CAN'T be that way; it's not healthy. It needs to be two souls, who are healthy and happy with themselves FIRST.
This was me too... it appears sane on the outside, but there are signs of codependancy written all over it.
I hope you give Alanon a chance
especially since you may be becoming involved with someone who uses the 12 steps in HIS life.
Keep coming here to share
Meg
A HEALTHY relationship involves two individuals who are whole and happy, and who both have a desire to share their experiences.
When one is involved with an addict/alcoholic, it is more often than not the case that he/she becomes (or is already) codependant. Meaning that this person becomes obsessed with the others life and dysfunction, that they neglect themselves.
For example:
My husband is an Addict / Alcohlic. When he was in his most active phase, I did and said anything to deter his using, or make him stop. It became my "mission" to find a cure, and I ended up taking on his disease. What happened in the end, was that I lost sense of who I was.
This is how Alanon has helped me.
The first lesson I learned is that I HAVE to take care of myself first; if I am acting and making decisions based on someone else's ideas and thinking, I am in danger of self-neglect.
And I know how hard it is to understand.
When I first got married, I thought of it as "two souls, becoming one"... you know all that romantic stuff. But it CAN'T be that way; it's not healthy. It needs to be two souls, who are healthy and happy with themselves FIRST.
My first priority is my children, family and my relationship and other commitments that I have in life. I have been taught to care for all of those around me and myself.
I hope you give Alanon a chance
especially since you may be becoming involved with someone who uses the 12 steps in HIS life.Keep coming here to share
Meg
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 11
All these Buzz-words..
All of these buzz-words...Co-dependant , sane...ect..listen my new friends...I had a solid childhood, and adult life...my share of heart ache and all. Reading your comments feels like you are talking to someone else. What is this and would'nt have been thoughtful and adult to say to me " Although I have been involved in this program for 12 years, being an A involves_______________________this. Can not fill in the blanks because I have no answers. This is the first time in my adult life that I have been in love with an A. This is like finding out I have some sickness that I never knew was inside of me. And I meet this person, love and trust..( is that not what a relationship is??) who leads me down an unknown path and BAM!!!~! It is me?????????????? Drisc the co-dependant? No one has ever called me that, not in 42 years..hmmmmmmmmmmm...
Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Baltimore,MD
Posts: 150
drisc,
I don't see you as codependant at all. You made a decision to commit your life, uproot yourself and travel a great distance, to be with the person you love. This, as you said, was a mutual decision.
I think what we are saying is that nomatter how long someone has been sobor, they are always an alcoholic and although living and working the 12 steps, they may still exibit alcoholic behaviors. Most of us love the A in our lives and through al-anon, have learned not to obsess on saving them, keeping them sobor or focus constantly on their behavior, either while drinking or sobor. THAT is what we mean by taking care of ourselves. Often, we lose friends, activities and our own sense of self, because we are constantly worried about the actions of the A.
Most of us didn't realize that we even acted this way until we had some sort of wake up call, where as we noticed that everything we did, said and cared about, revolved around making sure the A in our lives was as happy as could be, so that MAYBE we wouldn't rock the boat and they would drink.
Nomatter what you do, an A is going to do what they want to do; either they drink or they don't drink.
In your situation, there really isn't enough information about him, to come to any sort of conclusion on this message board, as to why he is suddenly putting you at arms length. From experience, I can tell you that A, either sobor or drinking, often have the best intentions but often, when faced with the reality of a major change or event, they have a really hard time dealing with it.
7 months may seem like a long time but perhaps as someone else said, you may need to rethink a lot of this and give it more time. All of the planning, moving and changes have for the most part been yours. You don't sound the least bit frightened of any of this, which in my opinion, sounds as if you are a very strong willed and confident person. All we are saying is...STAY THAT WAY.
Don't allow his apparent fear of making this commitment, to put you in a whirlwind of confusion and wonder.
Is there any way you could speak to his sponsor? Is there any way you could visit him for a weekend and just perhaps have a face to face discussion on what is going on inside his head, before you make such a huge decision?
I realize a few weeks ago, all of the pieces seemed to fall right into place and now, it feels as if to make them fit, some of them have to be forced in. That should NOT be the way to start a new life. You need answers and you need them before you cross the country and end up possibly making a mistake.
Taking care of YOU just means protecting yourself from becomming someone else in order to fit into his life.
Him taking care of himself, is not allowing this major change in his life, to cause a lot of stress and possibly cause him to have a set back. Maybe he will see that this is a change that will bring happiness and love into his world and maybe he still deep down feels he's not good enough or worthy of someone wonderful to share his life with.
You just need answers and you need them now.
I don't see you as codependant at all. You made a decision to commit your life, uproot yourself and travel a great distance, to be with the person you love. This, as you said, was a mutual decision.
I think what we are saying is that nomatter how long someone has been sobor, they are always an alcoholic and although living and working the 12 steps, they may still exibit alcoholic behaviors. Most of us love the A in our lives and through al-anon, have learned not to obsess on saving them, keeping them sobor or focus constantly on their behavior, either while drinking or sobor. THAT is what we mean by taking care of ourselves. Often, we lose friends, activities and our own sense of self, because we are constantly worried about the actions of the A.
Most of us didn't realize that we even acted this way until we had some sort of wake up call, where as we noticed that everything we did, said and cared about, revolved around making sure the A in our lives was as happy as could be, so that MAYBE we wouldn't rock the boat and they would drink.
Nomatter what you do, an A is going to do what they want to do; either they drink or they don't drink.
In your situation, there really isn't enough information about him, to come to any sort of conclusion on this message board, as to why he is suddenly putting you at arms length. From experience, I can tell you that A, either sobor or drinking, often have the best intentions but often, when faced with the reality of a major change or event, they have a really hard time dealing with it.
7 months may seem like a long time but perhaps as someone else said, you may need to rethink a lot of this and give it more time. All of the planning, moving and changes have for the most part been yours. You don't sound the least bit frightened of any of this, which in my opinion, sounds as if you are a very strong willed and confident person. All we are saying is...STAY THAT WAY.
Don't allow his apparent fear of making this commitment, to put you in a whirlwind of confusion and wonder.
Is there any way you could speak to his sponsor? Is there any way you could visit him for a weekend and just perhaps have a face to face discussion on what is going on inside his head, before you make such a huge decision?
I realize a few weeks ago, all of the pieces seemed to fall right into place and now, it feels as if to make them fit, some of them have to be forced in. That should NOT be the way to start a new life. You need answers and you need them before you cross the country and end up possibly making a mistake.
Taking care of YOU just means protecting yourself from becomming someone else in order to fit into his life.
Him taking care of himself, is not allowing this major change in his life, to cause a lot of stress and possibly cause him to have a set back. Maybe he will see that this is a change that will bring happiness and love into his world and maybe he still deep down feels he's not good enough or worthy of someone wonderful to share his life with.
You just need answers and you need them now.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 11
Longstrangetrip,
Thank you, THANK YOU, Thank you...I feel heard and a little better understood. Bless you! I now understand that being in a panic does no one any good and that my anger about his accountability is not important to anyone but me. I really needed to be understood. Now with the information and thoughts that you have shared with me, I plan to learn more about this disease of A and stay involved here. It really hit hard in the hearts of myself and children. "SO FORWARD WE WILL ALL GO ......TOGETHER."
Thank you, THANK YOU, Thank you...I feel heard and a little better understood. Bless you! I now understand that being in a panic does no one any good and that my anger about his accountability is not important to anyone but me. I really needed to be understood. Now with the information and thoughts that you have shared with me, I plan to learn more about this disease of A and stay involved here. It really hit hard in the hearts of myself and children. "SO FORWARD WE WILL ALL GO ......TOGETHER."
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 11
Final note on this one day........To all of you who reached out to me today, Thank you. I, like most all, felt really alone on this one. Tonight I will sleep and when tommorrow comes I will have a better understanding, and a new group of friends.
Be well! Drisc
Be well! Drisc
Learning to love life...
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 529
Hey again drisc,
Yup... I have to add also, that I wasn't trying to tell you that YOU were "sick". I was simply trying to explain why WE go to Alanon... what it does for us.
ME?
I was "crazy"
I AM codependant. But with the help of this program, my eyes are open to what I am responsible for, and what I need to let HIM figure out.
This statement, if said by ME, reeks codependancy - I guess I shouldn't assume that YOU are like me.
Take care, and I hope all goes well
Meg
Yup... I have to add also, that I wasn't trying to tell you that YOU were "sick". I was simply trying to explain why WE go to Alanon... what it does for us.
ME?
I was "crazy"
I AM codependant. But with the help of this program, my eyes are open to what I am responsible for, and what I need to let HIM figure out.
My first priority is my children, family and my relationship and other commitments that I have in life. I have been taught to care for all of those around me and myself.
Take care, and I hope all goes well
Meg
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 11
Meg,
Why is having priorites and relationships co-dependent? Is it that one may only focus on those things? I need to really learn what this word means.....somewhere in my mind, I had heard and stored that word...Seemed to be a "buzz" word for a while. Now it is something that I need to learns about so that I am aware. Again..thank you for reaching out. It means peace of mind for me and that is important. Please be in touch with me..add me to your buddy list . I feel blessed to have found all of you!
Why is having priorites and relationships co-dependent? Is it that one may only focus on those things? I need to really learn what this word means.....somewhere in my mind, I had heard and stored that word...Seemed to be a "buzz" word for a while. Now it is something that I need to learns about so that I am aware. Again..thank you for reaching out. It means peace of mind for me and that is important. Please be in touch with me..add me to your buddy list . I feel blessed to have found all of you!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Baltimore,MD
Posts: 150
"Loving" your family, children and husband, is totally different from being codependant. We all love our families and as parents to our children, we nurture them, take care of their needs, hug them, teach them right from wrong and so on. As spouses, we enjoy our partners by sharing the same interests, spending time together, sharing the family responsibilities and basically enjoying each other as individuals. It's NOT putting everyone else's needs ahead of your own.
Being codependant is when we feel that the other person in our lives should fulfill our dreams. They shouldn't do this or that because it will upset us or hurt our feelings. That it is their responsibility to make us happy and if we don't make them happy, there is obviously something wrong with us. So what happens, esspecially in a relationship with an addicted person, is we take on all of the responsibilities of the relationship. We feel it is our duty to MAKE them happy, MAKE them understand that the things they do hurt us and MAKE them better. We in a sense become martyrs, who's sole purpose in life is giving every ounce of energy we have to fixing everything that is wrong in the relationship and wrong with that other person. We hand our happiness over to them, when they are not capable of making us happy. That is where the taking care of yourself comes into play. You have to find yourself again. You have to meet your own needs and fill those voids because it takes a lot of self esteem to be with an alcoholic. You have to stop taking everything they do and say personally. You have to love the person but hate the disease. You have to stop sitting home waiting for them to walk in the door. You have stop allowing their actions to cause reactions from you.
Once you understand the difference between loving someone and actually being someone's caretaker and sort of an extension of that person, is when you are mentally secure and healthy enough to decide if this is how you want to live your life because sad to say, not all A get sobor, get into into recovery and stay there.
Also, taking care of yourself means knowing you're not perfect and occassionally forgiving yourself for losing it and getting angry and falling back into that person, even if only for one night. My biggest problem is the worrying. In the past I have worried myself sick over him drinking and driving. Every now and then I'll catch myself but then I realize that he is a big boy and if he get's caught or has an accident, I am not GOD, I can't stop it from happening. That was a big boundary...he can no longer use my truck when he goes out.
Being codependant is when we feel that the other person in our lives should fulfill our dreams. They shouldn't do this or that because it will upset us or hurt our feelings. That it is their responsibility to make us happy and if we don't make them happy, there is obviously something wrong with us. So what happens, esspecially in a relationship with an addicted person, is we take on all of the responsibilities of the relationship. We feel it is our duty to MAKE them happy, MAKE them understand that the things they do hurt us and MAKE them better. We in a sense become martyrs, who's sole purpose in life is giving every ounce of energy we have to fixing everything that is wrong in the relationship and wrong with that other person. We hand our happiness over to them, when they are not capable of making us happy. That is where the taking care of yourself comes into play. You have to find yourself again. You have to meet your own needs and fill those voids because it takes a lot of self esteem to be with an alcoholic. You have to stop taking everything they do and say personally. You have to love the person but hate the disease. You have to stop sitting home waiting for them to walk in the door. You have stop allowing their actions to cause reactions from you.
Once you understand the difference between loving someone and actually being someone's caretaker and sort of an extension of that person, is when you are mentally secure and healthy enough to decide if this is how you want to live your life because sad to say, not all A get sobor, get into into recovery and stay there.
Also, taking care of yourself means knowing you're not perfect and occassionally forgiving yourself for losing it and getting angry and falling back into that person, even if only for one night. My biggest problem is the worrying. In the past I have worried myself sick over him drinking and driving. Every now and then I'll catch myself but then I realize that he is a big boy and if he get's caught or has an accident, I am not GOD, I can't stop it from happening. That was a big boundary...he can no longer use my truck when he goes out.
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: outta my mind
Posts: 43
Hi drisc,
I was confused by the "codependent" word at first as well. I don't know that I would be classified as codie or not. At first I thought like you, no way! not me. I am not one who will sit still and take what comes my way. I am known for confronting people with things that bother me, I speak my mind and I let people know when they are pissing me off, most times I can do it in a way where I explain my feelings and usually people don't end up mad at me. I am one who WILL rock the boat, no problems there, and I often get accused(by the A) of "taking care of #1, only thinking about myself etc. My problem and where I think I fit into the codie thing is I try to control. I like control alot, I tend to want to be in control of my environment all the time. Loss of control to me equals scary situation. Therefore, I try and tell the A why he shouldnt drink, why he should be responsible, why adults dont act like this. I tell him he is hurting us, the kids, our family etc. thinking if I can just make him realize how stupid it is, he will do what I want, which is not drink. Well, surprise! He does it anyway, then I get mad and feel like hell. For me it is a loss of control. I try and try to make him think like me, which doesn't work. This is my biggest issue. I guess I tell too much of what I think, because he doesn't care to hear it and pretty soon starts to tune out everything I say. I have been repeating the 3 C's to myself over and over this past week, like a mantra. I DIDN'T CAUSE IT!!! I CAN'T CONTROL IT!!! I CAN'T CURE IT!!!
I was confused by the "codependent" word at first as well. I don't know that I would be classified as codie or not. At first I thought like you, no way! not me. I am not one who will sit still and take what comes my way. I am known for confronting people with things that bother me, I speak my mind and I let people know when they are pissing me off, most times I can do it in a way where I explain my feelings and usually people don't end up mad at me. I am one who WILL rock the boat, no problems there, and I often get accused(by the A) of "taking care of #1, only thinking about myself etc. My problem and where I think I fit into the codie thing is I try to control. I like control alot, I tend to want to be in control of my environment all the time. Loss of control to me equals scary situation. Therefore, I try and tell the A why he shouldnt drink, why he should be responsible, why adults dont act like this. I tell him he is hurting us, the kids, our family etc. thinking if I can just make him realize how stupid it is, he will do what I want, which is not drink. Well, surprise! He does it anyway, then I get mad and feel like hell. For me it is a loss of control. I try and try to make him think like me, which doesn't work. This is my biggest issue. I guess I tell too much of what I think, because he doesn't care to hear it and pretty soon starts to tune out everything I say. I have been repeating the 3 C's to myself over and over this past week, like a mantra. I DIDN'T CAUSE IT!!! I CAN'T CONTROL IT!!! I CAN'T CURE IT!!!
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: outta my mind
Posts: 43
ok sorry, i hit send and didn't mean to. Anyway, drisc, i too would not have called myself codependent a week ago, but now I see that in some ways I am. There is a book called "codependent no more" by Melody Beattie. She describes different kinds of codies and while I dont fit in all categories I do fit in some. This has helped me realize also why I try and "fix" things all the time, and try and "help" the A so he isn't upset, therefore I feel like oh, if he isn't upset, he won't drink.....well, WRONG!!!
anyway, I hope this helps, just showing you that codepency means more than one thing. Good Luck
anyway, I hope this helps, just showing you that codepency means more than one thing. Good Luck
Learning to love life...
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 529
Hi again drisc,
There was a thread started not to long ago by "Firefighter", called "Codependancy". I tried to insert the link, but it didn't work
You can go to the bottom of the board and go back a few pages (6 or so) to find it though.
I'll try to explain myself the best I can.
Codependancy is self-neglect; it is putting the needs and concerns of others above your OWN; it is obsessing and controlling the lives of others, while losing a sense of yourself. It is believeing that your happiness and success is found in "somewhere out there"; in making others happy. It is self-defeating behavior also, because the more we "care" for others, the more we are needed.
Now, I am thinking that there is a very thin line between someone who is dangerously codependant, and someone who likes to nurture and encourage the ones they love. Perhaps this is where you are?
Think of it this way.
You can love and nurture and encourage your husband / wife / children / mother, till the cows come home. If you are NOT taking care of yourself first, THEY are not receiving a healthy, happy you. Your efforts are suffocating your soul.
Anyway - it can be very difficult to explain... MY suggestion? Go to the book store and pick up "Codependant No More" by Melody Beattie. - She does a much better job (Oh, and you may find that your jaw drops open on more than one occasion)
Take care
Meg
drisc,There was a thread started not to long ago by "Firefighter", called "Codependancy". I tried to insert the link, but it didn't work
You can go to the bottom of the board and go back a few pages (6 or so) to find it though.
I'll try to explain myself the best I can.
Codependancy is self-neglect; it is putting the needs and concerns of others above your OWN; it is obsessing and controlling the lives of others, while losing a sense of yourself. It is believeing that your happiness and success is found in "somewhere out there"; in making others happy. It is self-defeating behavior also, because the more we "care" for others, the more we are needed.
Now, I am thinking that there is a very thin line between someone who is dangerously codependant, and someone who likes to nurture and encourage the ones they love. Perhaps this is where you are?
Think of it this way.
You can love and nurture and encourage your husband / wife / children / mother, till the cows come home. If you are NOT taking care of yourself first, THEY are not receiving a healthy, happy you. Your efforts are suffocating your soul.
Anyway - it can be very difficult to explain... MY suggestion? Go to the book store and pick up "Codependant No More" by Melody Beattie. - She does a much better job (Oh, and you may find that your jaw drops open on more than one occasion
)Take care
Meg
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 11
Things are getting clearer..
Meg,
Your explanaion is extremely well written and comprehendable. Things are becoming clearer.
Had a conversation last night with the "man." He is still very defensive and I know there is something there that he is not telling me......you know that "gut" feeling. During our conversation, while I was asking questions, he would say" I wish you would have just reacted this way, or I wish you just would have said this and more "I wish you's". So I think I will move a way from that type of conversations. I feel the way I feel and react to things the way I do and it was not what he wanted to hear or how he wanted me to react....Don't get that...guess he does not like who I am after all.........................
Your explanaion is extremely well written and comprehendable. Things are becoming clearer.
Had a conversation last night with the "man." He is still very defensive and I know there is something there that he is not telling me......you know that "gut" feeling. During our conversation, while I was asking questions, he would say" I wish you would have just reacted this way, or I wish you just would have said this and more "I wish you's". So I think I will move a way from that type of conversations. I feel the way I feel and react to things the way I do and it was not what he wanted to hear or how he wanted me to react....Don't get that...guess he does not like who I am after all.........................
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