FindingPeace1

My husband returned. We talked...kind of. Rehashed. He shut down - "there just isn't any more to say".
He concluded, "You say I hurt you. I say you hurt me. You say you feel scared to trust me. I certainly don't trust you after the character bashing you did to me (see first post - character bashing?). How can someone love and then tear them down out of the blue like that? The whole 'you love me thing' must have been an illusion. And if you don't trust me, then that is not repairable and will never change and I won't live like that and its over."
I said, "It's over? That's what you want?"
He said, "I didn't want any of this."
"Fine. So that's what you choose? Because I'd prefer couples counseling before ditching our marriage." (oh, crap! I am trying to get him to DO something!!)
Silence.
I push. "What do you want?" (because I can't move forward, I will push HIM to choose! AHHHHH!)
He says, "I don't know."
I got tired of waiting in silence.
I did the laundry, we watched a movie, went to bed and I got a kiss goodbye in the morning. He is sweet and affectionate. Tolerant of my foibles. Easy going. His wonderful self.

What??
So I post here to remind myself of the craziness so I can stay sane.
The deal is if I don't CHANGE the way I do business or expect him to, I can have the man I adore.
I have a real gem AND he WILL NOT deal with/own up to/talk about/take responsibility for his lying and addiction. Will not. Will not. Will not. Don't go there. Stop talking about it.
It's also true that he can say anything. Really sane things. But they don't mean anything. Words and actions are not linked.
I am SO happy to have y'all and hold on to sanity. Because I really want to ease/sink into the happy, loving, affectionate, sweet, kind, caring, gentle husband. I want to forget forget forget and be happy NOW. I want to love him and appreciate him for who he is now.

* He does his drinking/smoking somewhere else.
* If I don't talk about it, I don't have to deal with it.
* If I avoid the 'don't go there' topics, he's a love.

I can *almost* let it go. If I don't push him to go there, he doesn't lie and talk nonsense...that I know of. And I shouldn't be pushing him anyway, right?
If I do loving detachment, I will leave him alone about his drinking I probably won't know about it and he'll be his lovely self. Is that good? Is that bad? Is that denial?

Problems I see with it:
*no kids for me with him (that one will catch up with me eventually when he realizes I am still serious...or not - who knows. Maybe he will let kids go to avoid dealing with anything!)
* Sex is one of the 'do not go there' topics. So that will come up to be dealt with if I refuse to *stop* talking about it, which I do because that involves me regularly...so that's good.
* If I say I deserve a partner who is open and communicative and real and honest and is willing to be responsible for his actions, then I already know I am not getting it.
But but but he's so great...but but but if I leave him be, then he doesn't do that crap...except the open part. I'm still not getting that now.
But, where is the line between your partner will never be perfect and this is unacceptable. Maybe my standards are too high. The problems (often) come from me meddling in his business. When I don't, its really good. Maybe if I stop meddling, I will have it really good.
I know, I know, we discussed this before...
I need to hear it again.
Do you mind giving me advice? (I'll go back and read your previous replies, too...)
Hugs,
wife

suki44883

About all I can say is, you're obviously not done yet. You haven't had enough. When you have, you'll know.

NYC_Chick

Sorry wife. Hugs! I know this is hard, but you are doing great.

I told my xabf that I did not trust him because of his lies. He turned it around and told me he did not trust me because I was accusing him of things that were not true (they were all true, by the way). Round and round we went. You are not insane. You know what this is.

Here is a thought...do you want a life with a partner where you are not allowed to speak of certain things? None of us do. That's my measure right now of a healthy relationship... Can I discuss anything with this person? So far with the person I am now seeing I can, but if that changes, I will walk away because I deserve more. So do you.

Keep reading : ) sending hugs and positive vibes your way.

FindingPeace1

I feel so weak and whiny, which is a message to me that I am not in a good place...
anyway, my response is - okay, but (I know - whatever is next is a warning)...if the issues he has that bother me are drinking and smoking, hiding it, lying about it if I call him on hiding it or talking out his a$$ (stuff he doesn't mean) if I push him to talk about it, not communicating about some things, isolation from others and... that's all, and I would leave him for that, am I just wanting someone perfect?? Doesn't everyone have issues?? Everyone does! So how do you know what's you being unreasonable and what's them being unreasonable?

NYC_Chick

I think you have to know what your own deal breakers are. My deal breakers are lying, cheating, alcoholism, drug addiction, emotionally unavailable, unable to communicate thoughts and feelings, passive/aggressiveness. There are others, but these are some of the major ones. So, for me, how much do I have to compromise myself to be with someone? Well, I can compromise on lots of thing, but at my core, I can't compromise on big things because I would not be being true to myself. I lied to myself that I could be happy with his lying and drinking in my last relationship to my own detriment. I had to figure out how I wanted to live. He could not give me what I wanted so I chose to leave.

You are not whinney. You are doing really well! This is hard, but you're great figuring it out and finding out what will work for your life.

bookwyrm

I tried this...it lasted a few years. But then STBXAH stepped up his drinking. Alcoholism is progressive. If he really is an alcoholic, it won't just suddenly go away. Can you really re-bury your head in the sand knowing that this, right now, is the best he'll be if he doesn't get help? Will you still being there stop him from reaching his bottom? Will it eventually drag you down too, knowing that alcohol will always take first place over you?

I know, I know, one day at a time and focus on the now and don't borrow trouble from the future. I too was in a similar place to you. Around 8 years ago, STBXAH wanted kids and I agreed - but only if he stopped drinking. Well, that never happened. I'm much closer to 40 than you and I've accepted that I will never have kids since I waited and waited for him to get his act together. He wanted us to have a kid first and then he'd sober up! I knew enough then to say no, having tried these types of bargains with him before. It was one thing to choose to live with an alcoholic for myself but something else to inflict it on a defenceless child. I just wish I had read up on alcoholism at the time. I could have left much earlier. There again, I guess I just wasn't done yet. In the end he found someone else and when I wouldn't 'fight' for him he left.

I'm still a bit bitter - I feel I wasted my life on him. I deserved so much better and so do you.

MissFixit

Re-read your earlier posts.

Many of us circled back and forth for months, years and decades trying to fix, find closure, hold on, this time... The end result for me was a serious slap to my self esteem, ability to finally move on and sanity. It wasn't worth staying longer for the crap dealt later.

Please play the tape all the way through.

JenT1968

you get to draw the line for you.


I wonder then, if it is so darn good when you aren't meddling, what is there for you to meddle in?

The lying? wouldn't work for me, the turning a blind eye thing, although I've read histories about couples who apparently had successful marriages, one of them (for example) turning a blind eye to the other's homosexuality or philandering or whatever.

Is that acceptable to you? no-one else can answer that for you, as only you have to lie in that bed. But you know that is the deal.

I tried to live with a deal (I never mastered that loving detachment in situ although I'm told it can be done) I didn't do very well, but I did try.

FindingPeace1

This is good good good. I am rereading the posts. Not mine as much as all of yours. I think I have to come around 1000 times to: this is really it. No changing. Accept or walk. Full stop.
And to recognize I am not ready to walk, but am sitting with acceptance until I need to walk or can accept.
<breathing>
This is okay. Just be present and look and feel and observe you and him.
Okay.
One observation: My feeling hurt was because he lied. His feeling hurt was because I told the truth.
Deep.

Speaking of "I'm sitting with it", I am off tomorrow to my 10 day silent meditation retreat. No talking, no music, no writing, no eye contact and 10 days of meditation 10 hours a day. 100 hours of meditation. How awesome and scary and exciting is that??? So, after today, I will talk to y'all in January, probably.

FindingPeace1

I went back and found a comment by someone (Bernadette, I think) who just asked, "Are his behaviors dealbreakers?" When I read it before, I just skipped right over it.
Because I want to say yes. I think I SHOULD say yes. I think if I had self esteem I'd say yes. I think I got awfully close to saying yes in some posts in the past. But the action that goes with that is leaving and I don't want to leave.
I have seen people say, "When you're ready, you'll know", so I am working with that right now and keeping up on my recovery.

NYC_Chick

It's not bad to wait to leave if and when you are ready. I feel you are being healthy in that you are thinking about what you want. Staying for now does not make you weak. I did not understand when people said I would know when it was time to leave, but I did know. One look at my skin and bones self in the mirror and the realization that I was allowing that relationship to kill me told me. I hope it does not take that for you. You have a long and healthy life ahead of you if you want it, but you have to trust in andbe sure of your decision first.

naive

first off, wishing you a great retreat, wifeofadrinker.

really, we are just trying to spare you the years of heartache we have suffered. stay for four years, as i did, if you want to.

in my opinion, the writing is on the wall. you might need to wait longer, to prove it to yourself, as i did. you can not win over alcohol, especially as he won't even address the problem.

you're a clever lassie, you know all this already, don't you?

may your 10 days bring you strength, clarity and courage.

naive

FindingPeace1

Your wisdom is always appreciated, Naive. There is knowing it and then there is KNOWING it. I am working on integrating it.
It's funny how some things sink in faster than you want them to and some things hover outside of your understanding. You can hear it, but it takes time and repetition to really GET it.
Thank you for your blessing. I am so ready (scared of the pain, but ready nonetheless).
We tried to talk some more. I went around my own head while doing it - what do I want from talking? Why do I want to say this or that? To manipulate him? To get him to admit I'm right? To get him to be sorry and contrite? To get him to change? Each time, I paused...not sure what to say. Feeling like each thing that came to mind fit into one of those catagories.
If I don't want to do any of those things (oh, but I do!), what am I doing? What do I WANT from him?
I am guessing if I "play the tape all the way through", I will eventually come to the conclusion that there IS no reason to talk.
I was feeling okay and now I feel a wave of sad.
Not making any big decisions tonight.
Your hearts make all the difference.

tigger11

I love what Naive said to you, Wife - such WISDOM. really, we are just trying to spare you the years of heartache we have suffered.

To me it meant 17 years of emotional abuse from 1st-XAH, and 2 and a half from 2nd-STBX-AH, plus the added bonus of having to live in a fortress of a house with a handgun in my purse in case he comes back to maim or kill me. I NEVER in a bazillion years would have thought this man, my husband, would turn into a maniac. But those things I excused... the lying, the making up bizarre things about me, the promises to quit drinking, etc... all of them turned in a moment to complete, toxic, dangerous insanity.

Yours may not do that. I hope to HP he doesn't for your sake. I'm just saying you never EVER know what they'll do, and who they'll turn into as they progress in their disease.

I'm so sorry you're in this in-between place, this not knowing, this hanging on the edge by your fingernails! But please, think about what Naive said. We don't want you to turn around one day and realize you've wasted so much of your life and good years on one who gave nothing in return. HUGS TO YOU, and may your retreat being you peace and clarity!

MissFixit

Take care of yourself.

Many here have offerred their experiences, so I cannot add much more. One thing that stands out to me (and something that I struggled with) is that you might be excusing his behavior as no one is perfect. I said that to myself for years. Exactly. Active alcoholism isn't just a flaw that you learn to live with. It gets worse and worse. It is insanity and WILL affect you. Living with crazy WILL make you crazy. I know. I lived it.

Things might seem okay now, but you have passed a point where you know he is an A and he knows that you know. If you have said that his drinking bothers you and he continues then your staying sends him the message that he can do whatever he wants. The genie is out of the bottle and isn't going back in. This might seem okay, but (and this is from hindsight of years) when someone crosses your boundary and you stay, they get the message that you do not respect yourself, therefore they don't need to respect you.

I totally get that you don't want to leave. If you want to stay, then I wish you luck and hope that if things get bad again you remember some of the posts here. We are here for you.

whereisthisgoin

I think you and I have come to the realization our husbands are As at right about the same time...although it took me much longer - married 17 years. I am not ready to leave either. I am seeing a therapist, and have learned that our recovery is a process. You have come such a long way and should feel good about that.

LaTeeDa

Me too. For years. (I was married to him 18 years, we were together 3 or so before marriage)

In hindsight, I can see it for what it was. Fear. Fear of being alone. Fear of being unlovable. Fear that the unknown would be worse than the known. Plain and simple fear. I knew that what I was living with was unacceptable, but fear kept me there--for way too long.

L

Thumper

Alcoholism takes. It takes your money, your trust, your joy, it takes your hopes and dreams, it takes your partner.

You are fighting a war with alcohol and your partner is on alcohol's side.

Can you detach and make a good life for yourself despite that? We all find our own answer to that question and we find it in our own time.

I have enjoyed reading your posts btw. They are thought provoking and honest.