feels like backwards, but maybe it is a beginning

Old 11-27-2009, 09:29 PM
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feels like backwards, but maybe it is a beginning

I have poked my head in and out of the forum here, but quite honestly, I thought things had turned around a couple of months ago. I had posted some things that have happened between myself and RAH that have moved me. His posted signs of committment left on my nightstand; fresh flowers next to my bed, etc. But, then there is the ugly side.

A few months ago after enduring 7 years of well, a lot of hell from him and forgiveness and mercy on my side (really, not exaggerating this), obstinate step-children, self sacrifice...he found out I had exchanged some suggestive emails with a friend of his. I was at my bottom with the relationship-this other person who knew my RAH, offered me kindness-something that was simply rare in my world at the time. I was weak-and I responded in like kind, but never went any further than email.

RAH said he has forgiven me and he says the 7 years of hell he has created for me must have been horrible and he is just as much to blame. I thought he was finally seeing the other side of things-the consequeces of his ill-treatment of me.

Here is the part I haven't wanted to post because it has numbed me. He keeps bringing this up. Every week. Every week since September he has promised he wouldn't bring up the past and then 5 days go by and I am blindsighted again and the whole discussion, for lack of a better term is simply quacking on his side.

This week-he snooped on my blackberry. I have recently been in touch with friends I knew from elementary school from 30 years ago-it has been absolutely renewing to connect with my friends in this way. He read a bberry thread I exchanged with a male from my class-it's been 30 years...my RAH felt it was going "to far" and "this is the way things started before"...ah, how easy it is to point the finger at someone else so you don't have to point it at yourself. Unfortunately for him-this is a dear friend and I rose up and said I will NOT stop talking to friends. You are out of control and you crossed a boundary. He admitted he felt horrible about it...that was last week...just today-the past came up AGAIN.

I told him-I have never been so emotionally wiped out and empty ever in my life. I also keep thinking I can trust this man who isn't supposed to hurt me or bruise me emotionally-I gave him my heart and my trust. Today-I told him, go right ahead being angry-but LEAVE ME ALONE AND OUT OF IT. I guess, those were some magic words. He burst into tears, like a 5 year old and went upstairs and laid down on the bed crying. He is frustrated he cannot keep his promise to me by not bringing up the past. I told him-I'm not talking about anything unless we have a third party/counselor present. The fight in me-is gone. I am focusing on my boundary, knowing he is the one with the struggle-not me. I forgave myself a few months and forgave him for MANY things...because that is only way I could move on. He simply cannot accomplish this right now-and I told I will not be treated like this by anyone. I will not be treated like some kind of ***** or tramp because of emails. Again-easier to point fingers at me rather work on himself.

I'm sorry this is long...I am just devastated...it took everything in me to cook a sitdown dinner for 17 last night when I had to keep taking a "cry" break so I could just keep it together. If nothing else...I am figuring out I have to keep the boundary of not talking and/or engaging.

Thank you for listening...again.
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Old 11-28-2009, 05:15 AM
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Your RAH sounds a lot like my xabf. We had similar back and forths, ups and downs. I was guilty of the same....bringing up the past and throwing it back in his face. It served no purpose and I was only doing it to hurt him. Here I was hating the way he threw my past back at me yet I was doing it to him. Needless to say, I worked really hard to stop that (and hadn't done it for several months prior to our breakup).....but he didn't. He still threw what he thought my past was back at me (meaning, he took the truth and bent it a little to make me look like a really bad person). And the irony is HE'S the one who always complained about the past being brought back up.

I had a few emotional affairs in my second marriage; though I didn't realize they were emotional affairs until after we divorced. There was never any physical activity or connection between us. It never went that far and a few people I never even met face to face--it was just email. So I never felt like I was doing anything wrong.

Like I said, it wasn't until after we divorced that I realized what I had done was wrong. Someone told me to really look at what I was doing and the things that were being said. If I was writing this email and he came in the room, would I continue writing or would I change to another screen? Would I let him read my email? If I read the same email that he wrote to another woman, how would it make me feel? If he read it without my permission and I got angry, why would I be angry? Is it because he hacked my account? Or because he invaded my privacy? Or because I was doing something I knew he wouldn't like?

The fact was, all love and feelings for my H (at the time) were gone. A breakup was obvious, there were too many things wrong with us as a couple. But, despite how I felt about him, I should have validated his feelings. I didn't think he had any reason to not trust me or to spy on me or invade my privacy or so on and so forth. But with my secrecy about these emotional affairs he did.

When I met xabf I had a lot of friends online. 99% of them were friends from school....people I hung out with 20 years earlier but never talked to anymore face to face. Heck, most of them were across the country (including one who I played a game with online every single night for the last ten years). I had no problem giving him the passwords to all my accounts. I had nothing to hide and if I felt like I did need to hide something then I needed to reevaluate the relationship and why I felt I had to hide it. Then put the shoe on the other foot and validate his feelings.

In the end, he was way too clingy, paranoid, protective, obsessive. He even thought there was a relationship with even the girls I was talking to online. Anything to make ME be the bad person; make HIM a victim. It was his way of throwing my past back up into my face--even though it had happened years and years earlier, way before him, and never happened with him. But it's one of the many reasons I left and finally went no contact. In the end, I couldn't validate his feelings.
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:09 AM
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KV-thank you for your response. At this point-I am simply stuck. A year ago-he was struggling finding a job and all of his "behaviors" were blamed on that situation i.e. there was nothing he could do about it. I believed. The fact is with everything he told me-I believed it-because he is my husband. Although I have seen progress, it seems that as long as he feels undeserving of anything good-including me (I'm really not THAT bad!) this cycle will never end.

I have taken responsibility for what I did-he knows inherently what he is doing, because after he verbalizes the past-and I say, you promised...you wouldn't bring it up...he feels awful. It's like he cannot stop putting the hand in the cookie jar.

I am proud of the fact he has stopped drinking-but honestly it seems that working his program is a whole lot more difficult than breaking that addiction. I know-hoping that this turns around is rediculous. I can assure all who read this, I have let go-and made it clear that if he wants to be angry or continue to be angry-he has that right. BUT. He does NOT have a right to target me with the anger any more.

The reason I feel this might be a beginning, is there isn't anything else in the shadows. The relationship has been "gutted"...so either we move forward, or we end it. He doesn't want to end it-I don't either-and I need to keep my boundary, keep my recovery going and not fall into any traps anymore. Unfortunately, that means when he says he is sorry and promises things-I silently believe it-when I see it-for the good of both of us until we get into couple's counseling. (we are both in individual counseling)

Thanks for listening-reading-and sharing.
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:14 AM
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Mermaid, hello dear. What a difficult, energy draining time you've been having. I'm so sorry.

Our alcoholics work very hard to isolate us from family and friends. For mine, this involved keeping me on the phone back and forth to work the entire 1/2 hour drive every day, making up things, sometimes horrible things about my family and friends so I'd feel guilty about being with them, accusing me of all kinds of bizarre things (the worst was that I was involved in internet porn movies) about me, etc.

I believe they do this isolation thing so that we, their own personal co-dependents, can focus exclusively on them. We can be their drinking buddies, their emotional encouragers, the feeders of their twisted egos.

Our alcoholics are sick. They drink, behave badly, become abusive, and then they either justify their behavior, or conveniently forget. Often, they exhibit this behavior both drunk or sober... even when in recovery. Their minds and hearts are twisted, and they attempt to project their twisted-ness onto us in order to make it "okay". It is poison to us, and it will slowly kill us.

We get sucked into their sickness because we've loved and trusted them with our very lives. We buy into their behavior, even while our logical minds are screaming; "NO", but our own dependence upon what we believe they could be overrides, as does our natural, feminine propensity to be caregivers. This, in short, is our own sickness. Our co-dependence.

What, may I ask, have you done to take care of YOU? Have you spent lots of time venting and seeking feedback on this forum? This is, for me, the best place to learn to take care of ourselves, get encouragement, learn the alcoholic behavior and how it affects us and what to do in response. There's also Al-Anon which is SO helpful for so many, and that I've added 2x/wk as another tool for healing, and counseling which provides invaluable help for so many. By using these methods, you can learn to focus your energy on yourself, and healthy ways of being, rather than giving all your energy to dealing with your energy-draining alcoholic. You can learn to live successfully with or without him.

Sorry this is long and rather heavy. I hope it's been helpful.

(((MERMAID))) HUGS and thoughts of STRENGTH to you Mermaid!

Tigger
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mermaidgirl View Post
it seems that as long as he feels undeserving of anything good-including me (I'm really not THAT bad!) this cycle will never end.
Well of course. And you'll continue to be the "bad" person until something good happens to him and he accepts it as good. And at that point, he'll make it very clear that you had NOTHING to do with the good that happened to him

I've read it said a million times on here.....actions, not words (and don't fall for the tears either). I can't even count how many times xabf said he did something wrong only to turn around and do it again. He said a thousand times that he was wrong for a situation but he never really admitted it.

I know how exhausted you are. It's so hard trying to reason with the unreasonable.......no, two years of trying has proved me to that it's impossible.
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mermaidgirl View Post

I am proud of the fact he has stopped drinking-but honestly it seems that working his program is a whole lot more difficult than breaking that addiction.

Thanks for listening-reading-and sharing.
I'm sure you've heard the term "dry drunk". He can put down the bottle, but that is only the first, and relatively small, step. You are correct; working a program to stay truly sober is difficult (at first), and never-ending. But the good news is that it becomes a way of life. Or CAN become.
It is in the everyday challenges of life when the rubber hits the road and the weaknesses are revealed. sounds like he has an accountability problem.

Good for you to be in therapy. If he just shows up, nothing will really change, but if he's working with the therapist, well. I hope you can have some joint sessions. Best to you
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:10 AM
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Meh.

He spent the last 7 years with HIS mistress, alcohol. Now he's spending time whining to you about some emails?

Quack
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Old 11-28-2009, 09:45 AM
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Another one of those times I wish I could hit the "thanks" more than once.

Thanks Still.
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Old 11-28-2009, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by tigger11 View Post
Our alcoholics work very hard to isolate us from family and friends.

I believe they do this isolation thing so that we, their own personal co-dependents, can focus exclusively on them.

Our alcoholics are sick. They drink, behave badly, become abusive, and then they either justify their behavior, or conveniently forget. Often, they exhibit this behavior both drunk or sober... even when in recovery. Their minds and hearts are twisted, and they attempt to project their twisted-ness onto us in order to make it "okay". It is poison to us, and it will slowly kill us.

We get sucked into their sickness because we've loved and trusted them with our very lives. We buy into their behavior, even while our logical minds are screaming; "NO", but our own dependence upon what we believe they could be overrides, as does our natural, feminine propensity to be caregivers. This, in short, is our own sickness. Our co-dependence.
What you said is it - in a nutshell. Your words are so true and really strike a chord with me.

Mermaid: It really doesn't matter what we've done (or haven't done). Email, texts, or innocent conversations with others, our alcoholics are always going to accuse us of anything in order to deflect their own guilt onto us and keep from facing their demons.

My heart goes out to you. I know all too well how difficult it is to "act" normal then run into the bathroom for a crying break. "Why are your eyes puffy?" "I'm just tired, ma."

The first time I split with my ABF, I happened to be in a band at the time and well, I guess you can imagine what he accused me of doing with one of the guys. My relationship with my band-mates was strictly professional, but that never stopped him of accusing me of screwing around. I also re-connected with my 1st husband on Facebook (who is happily married) and whom I have no earthly interest in, but now I'm being accused of screwing around with him, too.

I'm an happy that your RAH is not drinking...at least you have that. What I wouldn't give to get to that point. But I realize that everything else in recovery is just as hard. It sounds like you have come a long way and I hope that your joint-sessions are productive and you can both get peace back in your lives.
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:13 PM
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Thank you so much for your responses. I haven't posted here quite honestly, because I thought the corner we turned in August was real. I have now realized that it wasn't...and it has taken awhile for me to even believe it. I feel like I have my tail between my legs in an odd way. I feel foolish every time I have believed him.

Today, we had lunch together before he went to work. I've made it clear that his anger is ok-but his anger directed at me-it not ok anymore, so this leads to not much conversation. So...as we ate lunch quietly, he stopped and gave me the I'm sorry speech. Said he knows that he is responsible for a lot of our issues-says he has put me in a corner and pushed me away at the same time. For the first time, he wants to go to couple's counseling. This will be the second time for counseling. I told him don't even bother if he is doing this to go through the motions-I've seen all the moves.

I've dropped my gloves so to speak. Nothing to hide, but I said I just don't want anyone yelling at me anymore...I don't want that in my life. I haven't worked on myself, going to individual counseling for well over a year-to let anyone walk or talk over me anymore. Done with dysfunction. In a sense, I think he might see without the battle-it's just not "fun" anymore, no one to dominate or try to intimidate.

He admitted today-that living like this is not a life for either one of us. And, he said if he "can't get over" (the emails) then he should leave. I held my tongue-because there was SO much I could come back with...but for what? Doesn't matter...but I can't help but think...I helped put this man thru school (at 49 y/o)...put up with his addicted son...put up with the rage from both of his daughters...put up with basically-a lot.

He says he has hope in the relationship and I think this is a good sign. I am hopeful-but I cannot speak for him-only me. He also said he has noticed how hard I have worked on myself and it must be hard for me to make such great progress and then see him stuck-not moving. I said, really that isn't any of my business i.e. I try to stay on my side of the tracks anymore.

I'll keep posting...thank you so much...from the bottom of my heart-for all of the support you all give me. Incidentally, I do attend Al-Anon, but it conflicts with my indiv counseling. So, I attend when I can and I have two people in that group I would like to be my sponsor when I am done with counseling.

I guess I would like to know if anyone ever works a program...all I hear is the negative. If recovery is possible-what does it look like? Is this even possible? Probably rhetorical questions...!

Thank you all-:day6
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:47 AM
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I had the best year of my marriage the one after my (former) husband got out of rehab. We went on weekly dates, we talked, he was a different person. Then he relapsed and never came back, even though he did stop drinking right away after the slip.

I am smart enough to know that you can't stay on a treatment high forever, you can't stay on any kind of high for an extended period. But, if the person is working a program, I think what it looks like is:
taking responsibility for one's actions
confessing when a violation has occurred, then apologizing for it
having relationships with clean and sober people
not shutting you out (depending on their personality and how much they share)

I also know that there are bad days and bad periods of time. I know that it's often two steps forward, one back, or even one forward two back sometimes. I need to remember to breathe through those times, even though I am scared of what it might mean.

My experience with a medium-time sober person (2 1/2 years) was that he was still "himself" meaning, had his baggage and ways that held him back, but that he was NOT the same person as when he was using.

Peace....
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:54 AM
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I had the best year of my marriage the one after my (former) husband got out of rehab. We went on weekly dates, we talked, he was a different person. Then he relapsed and never came back, even though he did stop drinking right away after the slip.
My AH was amazing directly after rehab, I can still remember how good it felt to hear him laugh, really laugh out loud. But it didn't last a year. Sadly.
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:42 PM
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I think I know what you mean by what it "looks" like when someone is working their program. We have had these amazingly lucid, adult conversations, where he takes responsibility for the "7 years of hell" he has caused me. And then he turns to the dark side behaviorally speaking and I feel like I was led to the edge of a cliff again and he turns his back.

Our counseling appt is Thursday morning. Right now, my rules are let's just not attack one another-at all until we have a third party present. And, (this one is driving him nuts) no sex. I told him Sunday that we cannot do the same cycle anymore. He admits his contribution to the problem-he apologizes and says he will never do it again-I believe him-we "act" like the normal couple-then he goes to the dark side. It is a cycle I don't want. I simply cannot have sex with someone-yes, even my spouse-that doesn't see my feelings as important EVERY day.

Thanks for all of the comments and support.
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by coffeedrinker View Post
But, if the person is working a program, I think what it looks like is:
taking responsibility for one's actions
confessing when a violation has occurred, then apologizing for it
having relationships with clean and sober people
not shutting you out (depending on their personality and how much they share)
holy cow, yes. And NO recovery looks like:
denying culpability or blaming you or avoiding the topic or getting angry at you to deflect or feeling hurt at something you did to deflect
maybe not apologizing or apologizing in a weasel-y way or in a bitter way or in an angry way or in a forced way
then expecting you to just get over it.
then refusing to talk about it.
My AH is definitely in the latter camp. Yuck-o.
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