wanting

XH told me last night that he needs to make amends with me.

First, a recap: He quit drinking in April (with several relapses since) and had an affair with one of my "friends" over the summer. He decided in October to leave me for her. Next week, he is flying across the country and driving back with her and all of her stuff and she is going to live with him. My oldest daughter has been deeply affected by this and flat-out refuses to go to his place if she's there. At first, I wanted it in the parenting agreement that the kids are not allowed around her. Then, I thought we could just both agree that the kids not be around new romantic partners for a year. Then, I decided to let it go and let him live his own parenting life, free of my intereference, but leave our oldest daughter with the choice of whether she wanted to go over there. Our other daughter is 3 and I don't see much harm in her seeing the girlfriend.

Anyway, I feel like, as long as he is still continuing to inflict pain by being involved with the person who helped him to destroy our marriage, I don't want to hear his apologies. We are on pretty good terms and civil to one another, but I just don't feel like he can possibly make amends with me at this point.

Am I wrong? Should I just let him say what he has to say and not say anything about it? Should I ask him to do it by email so I don't have to respond? Is making amends supposed to be for him or for me? If it's to ease his own conscience so he can feel OK about what he's doing, then maybe I shouldn't care? But if it's for me, I don't feel that "oh sorry" while continuing to inflict pain is going to cut it. Please help me with how I should be seeing this.

Ago

No

You aren't required to help him feel better about himself by listening to his spew

an amends isn't an apology, which is a "formal defense" an amends is a lifestyle change, a desire to make the wrong right, and in the last part of step nine it states "except when to do so would injure them or others" and if his amends is harmful to you it's your right and prerogative to say "away wi' ye, yer past yer best ye swine, sell yer drivel to a store that's buying"

wanting

Thank you for responding, Ago. Your opinion means a lot to me.

nodaybut2day

yes, and you should say it just like that!

Seriously though, I have to agree. You don't need to listen to his crap and help soothe his guilt. Besides, his words won't mean crap anyhow, so what's the point in listening to them?

Astro

I have a similar, albeit twisted, situation. I'm the A in recovery, my ex married the co-worker she had an affair with, I don't care for people who commit adultery and participate in the break-up of marriages and families. Just my
$.02 worth.

But I'm in AA and they're both on my 9th Step list. My sponsor told me I should start with the most difficult one first. That would be him. Uh-uh, ain't happening, not now and maybe not in this lifetime. I'm trying to forgive but so far I can't let go of the anger and resentment. So I started with her.

She didn't accept my amends, she wanted me to apologize to her lover first and I wasn't having any of that. Instead I took it upon myself to lose control and give him a beating. Earned myself an assault charge and a restraining order, I'm not proud of it but I can't say I regret it either. Just being honest.

My thought is this.....making an amends is forgiving myself and being earnestly sorry for my poor behavior and actions. But if someone doesn't want to accept the amends then I have to accept that myself. What I don't have to be is a doormat, I don't have to be "OK" with the poor morals of another person. And since that incident what's weighed heaviest on my mind is the second half of the 9th Step which states "except when to do so would injure them or others". I got that part horribly wrong. Progress, not perfection.

I feel that how you choose to see it is up to you, you don't have to accept the amends if you find it painful. At the same time though, I hope you're making an effort to ease your own conscience, to make your amends and forgive yourself too.

MissFixit

no

24Years

Our friend *Mr.* Webster states to amend means the following:

1 : to put right; especially : to make emendations in (as a text)
2 a : to change or modify for the better : IMPROVE <amend the situation> b : to alter especially in phraseology; especially : to alter formally by modification, deletion, or addition <amend a constitution>

So what is it he is going to put right, or change or modify for the better? If it was me, he’d have to be getting rid of the lady friend as one part of making amends. If he’s not doing that, no amends; period.

Learn2Live

Nope.

Nope. Not if you don't want to hear it. Refuse.

Nope.

See Ago's post above.

Yep.

You "should" be seeing this exactly as you see it. You already know what is best for you. Trust your instincts.

wanting

Sorry to hear about your situation, Astro, and I feel the same about adultery. I'm pretty amazed that your X's H is on your list. I'm not at a place in my recovery where I've gotten to that step, and can't imagine ever making amends with that person.

You know, it's funny, at my first al-anon meeting, it all hit me how much I had done wrong in our marriage. All the typical cruel and controlling codie stuff. I didn't know anything about the 12 steps, and just felt an immediate need to apologize to H. This was before I found out about the affair. It was truly heartfelt and I intended to change and have changed a lot since then. He ended up throwing it all in my face as justification for his affair. As in, you did this, this, and this, you even admitted it, you made me have an affair!

Ugh, I can feel all my resentment boiling up to the surface again. This is not feeling good.

wanting

Thank you L2L, I think you are right. This is not going to be good for me. I already feel awful thinking about it. Had some bad dreams last night and just have an overall yucky feeling about it. Thank you for bringing up instincts.

MissFixit

You made me have an affair.
You made me drink.
You made me...fill in the blank.

Not much recovery there.

TakingCharge999

Thanks Ago.

wanting, I wish you the best. I liked your conclusion in letting your daughter choose. All the best for you and your kids!

JenT1968

can you "take a raincheck" on an amends (I'm genuinely curious) or if someone offers and you turn it down, is that them done in step-wise obligations towards you, living amends and forwards into life?

as someone who isn't 12-stepping, I would have thought, as everyone says above, it is entirely up to you. If you aren't feeling it there's no need to pretend, or countenence it, you don't receive an apology for someone else's sake (and I understand there is a differenceapology/amends, although not hot on the detail).

But, as a suggestion, given this:

maybe consider if you could get something out of the process FOR YOURSELF and maybe your children, not for him, or her, if you went in with no expectations, and an open mind? It may be that it could help excorcise some of that old pain, or help you stop receiving fresh wounds (alternatively you might end up angry as all hell, I've no idea, you'll sort out what's best for you).

No shoulds or right/wrongs, but perhaps something to think about? You'll make the right decision, whichever it ends up being.

justanothrdrunk

My amends were never about guilt or my conscience.

I've never had anyone refuse an amend though - and no one is required to accept an amend, not according to the big book of AA anyway.

I would think that if someone were to refuse an amend I would have fulfilled that part of my list without having to make that amend (made direct amends to such people wherever possible). And when I think about it, it sure would have been a lot easier on me had several people on my list refused the amend. Refusing my amend basically is a way of letting me off the hook. That's sure easier than making the amend IMHO.

transformyself

Hi Wanting.
I just wanted to add that any formal amends through AA clearly says, "except when to do so would injury myself of others."

I know for me, it's been a real task to learn how to enforce boundaries with AH even when I"m very clear of them.

Hope you have a fantastic holiday tomorrow, stress free.

ItsmeAlice

I still don't understand the idea of amends. I do think, though, that any amends or apology has to start by discontinuing the actions or words that caused someone pain. Apologizing for hurting someone is pointless and equally painful if it is followed by any assertion that the behavior will continue.

"I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but you really do look fat in those pants."

Such an apology is just as painful as the original tactless remark.

If you are not emotionally open to an apology, I think you owe it to yourself to stop the giver and say, I just can't hear you now, I'm still hurting. You don't have to give anyone forgiveness until you are ready to. Your continued hurt over the issue should be an indicator for how much more the offending party has to work on things. A spontaneous apology for stepping on someone's toe certainly won't cut it for an act of infidelity, am I right?

Just my thought.
Alice

intheknow

My therapist and I talked about this just yesterday, and added in the thought of forgiveness.

According to her: when RAH makes amends to me, I have to listen but only if I want. I do not have to respond, react or forgive. What I do is up to me.

The amends are for him.

Forgiveness is important, she says. However, forgiveness does not mean I still love you, I might like you later, it's ok that you hurt me/destroyed my life (fill in the blank).

Forgiveness only means that the person you are forgiving no longer has control. I want to get there soon, but it is so hard because so many of the things that happened are unforgivable right now.

wanting

OK, this might sound weird, but I do forgive him. It's just that it's better without an apology, because I can't believe he means it when he apologizes. When he apologizes, but continues to hurt me and the kids with his behavior, it adds a new transgression - trying to get me to ease his guilty conscience, when he should ease his own guilty conscience by discontinuing the behavior. Does that make sense?

Amends are confusing for me. I think a lot of times, a heartfelt apology and a change in behavior do suffice. But is it unreasonable of me to think that his amends can't be genuine until he isn't with the girlfriend anymore? I mean, when does it become me that has the problem? If he wants to make amends in 5 years and is still with the girlfriend, then can it really be true amends? I know I don't have to think that far, and crap, it's only been a month since this all happened, but I'm just feeling like thinking about the philosophy around amends, I guess.

justanotherdrunk, I don't know if that is a legitimate way to make amends. I mean, I can see it if you've been working a program for a while and you've given the person you hurt time to get a bit of space from the situation. It's been a little over a month since he left me, he goes to meetings (he says) but doesn't have a sponsor and as far as I know, hasn't started on the steps. It seems like he is jumping ahead to the stuff that will make him feel better and he's still continuing with the hurt. I mean, I can see how he might say, "Well, I did my part, check!" and I can't work anyone's program for them, but it doesn't seem legitimate to me.

intheknow

I agree with your last statement...in my situation my RAH is just trying to check it off his list, and since he can't seem to make amends to me, he can't make them to anyone else. It is my fault he is not able to complete it, you see.

tjp613

I agree with Bucyn. That's the way I understand amends, too.

When I visited AS's rehab for 'family week' the director spoke to us of his addiction and recovery. He was a hard core heroin addict and burglarized houses to get the money. He said when he did his 9th step that he went to every house he could remember burglarizing (and it was a bunch). He knocked on the door, explained what he was doing and asked the homeowner how THEY would like him to make amends! He said he was fully prepared to go to jail if anyone wanted to press charges (no one did) and he paid back all who said they wanted financial restitution. He said most were very kind and forgiving and wished him well. BUT, my point is, that he asked THEM what it would take for them to feel like the score was even.

<shrug>