FindingPeace1

I'm one week into a 2 week break from AH.

I am all over the board.

I am able to *consider* a separation.

I am can see how kids are not a good idea at this time.

I miss him.

I go back and forth about WHAT AM I DOING?

I've thought, "I'm 36. Even if I were to go off in hopes of children with someone else, what are the chances that I separate, greive, meet others, build a relationship and get pregnant before I pass the age I want to have kids or can? Not high. So maybe I need to just give up the kid idea. Okay. Now I can go back to him! It's just me that has to deal with the occasional BS, right? I can do that. And besides, I want what he's got. I want the life with him. If he does get worse, I can leave then, right?"
...and yet...

I've done more good reading. Ideas in my head from reading:

* healthy partners who accidently hurt a loved one's feelings do not refuse to discuss the error or refuse to acknowledge it.

* funtional partners do not lie, particularly repeatedly.

* healthy partners do not hide things.

* functional partners do not, when their error is exposed: minimize, avoid, get angry at YOU, bring up sadness/hurt or pain as a red herring, bring up YOUR faults, blame, argue they did it for you in some way, make you feel wrong for bringing it up, or WALK OUT to avoid the discussion.

* healthy partners can admit a mistake, apologize clearly and cleanly, help repair emotional damage, and attempt to not do it again.

* healthy partners do not encourage your independence, but secretly use it as a "if she loved me enough" test

* functional partners do not respond to your detachment/differentiation by accusing you of being cold and heartless

* healthy partners do not need the basics of courtesy explained

* healthy partners, when their actions are disrespectful, are able to listen to your explanations and they can GET IT.

Okay, so I get that. These are issues. Not good. But here's the thing. (insert "but" excuse here...)
I just hung out with some friends and they know I am struggling with some issues with my AH. They gave me this whole speech about how all relationships are hard and marriage requires sacrifice for everyone and how he must have been really special to pick him in the first place, but we get complacent and forget the good, and no one is perfect, in fact, perhaps no one is NOT codependent and, and, and...

and I am re-reading Passionate Marriage, which I love, but he says this whole thing about how running away from your partner is not differentiation but emeshment (because you are so mixed up with them that your buttons are pushed too hard to stick around which proves your codie-ness) and that to truly be differentiated you have the ability to stay with/around them and deal with your emotional issues yourself.

which made me all messed up inside.

Am I running away because of my emeshment/codie nature? Yes...in part, I'm sure...
And is his yucky stuff just human? Am I over focusing on his faults and missing all the great? (because every human has a boatload of junk)

And...should I stay and work on my stuff? Am I just running away from my OWN dysfunction, not his, in which case I will take it with me, in which case what is the point of leaving??

I'm feeling confused. I mean, I know only I can answer these questions and that I have to decide what are deal breakers and what aren't...I just...feel confused. You know? This is so confusing!

Seren

I just have one question: How can you work on a marriage when your husband high-tails it out of the house if you bring up a subject that is a problem for you?

Yes, marriage requires work, but it sounds to me like you, alone, are willing to work and your husband just wants you to ignore the problem........

Huge hugs, HG

neecey1224

Wow...heavy, intense, complicated stuff there. And you are half way through a two week window you gave yourself to resolve these life-affecting issues?? WOW.

In my experience, all those "a healthy person ..." statements are the building blocks/foundations of a successful relationship. I think a lot of focusing and soul searching needs to be concentrated on those statements. Without a strong, stable foudation, what do you really have?

As far as working on your own stuff, I, personally, was not able to work on my own stuff at all while dealing with A's stuff that he was constantly throwing at me. And it was a constant barrage.

Also, if you are truly dedicated to working on your own stuff, you don't have to fret about carrying it into the next relationship because you will work to resolve it before the next relationship. Or at least be well on your way to resolving it when the next relationship comes along. So I think you can take that worry off your list.

If I were in your shoes, I think those "healty person" foundation statements should be the deal makers/breakers.

hadenoughnow

Being involved with an A is on a whole different level, it's NOT a "typical" or "regular" relationship. It's not just you and him, it's you, him AND the alcohol (aka "the other woman"). I doubt that if you described your marriage and replaced each reference to alcohol with another woman they would give you the same advice.

I heard all of these things from well meaning people for years, they were wrong. The longer I "hung in there" and "tried to work things out" the worse it got. Why? Because I was in a marriage with someone who was married to his case of beer, there was no room for me or my needs. I was just there to make his life comfortable so he and his "mistress" could carry on as usual.

naive

your friends, perhaps well-meaning, must not live with an active alcoholic to give you such advice.

i think your list says it all. if you are willing to live with those character defects and also with the knowledge that alcohol is a progressive disease.

i understand the appeal of a passionate marriage and children but that appears highly unlikely with your current partner if he does not get help voluntarily.

in AA, if the alcoholic thinks that they can control their drinking, they are encouraged to go out and try and are told they are welcomed back.

for us codies, perhaps it is the same. sometimes going back to the lying, blaming, hiding is the best reality check. it is good that you will have two weeks of non-alcoholic chaos to get the full effect of stepping back into that environment.

for myself, i don't take relationship advice from people who have not lived with an alcoholic, because it is a particular madness that one must experience first-hand to truly understand. that's why, in my opinion, this board is so successful.

perhaps all will become clear with your 10 day silent retreat. in such reflective meditative receptive position, your HP and your own inner wisdom will have an opportunity to speak and guide. what a fantastic opportunity to let it all go and perhaps reach some clarity as to the direction and purpose of your life. if i may ask, is it vipassana?

intheknow

Is two weeks really long enough?

I too am separated from RAH, since mid-September. And, I am still alive to talk about it. I didn't die of sadness, I haven't withered from lack of human contact. I am truly happy and healthy and finding my way again. Don't misunderstand, I cry almost every day over some sadness, letting go and grief of some sort. I wish for all the things I thought my marriage was. It only took me 20 years to figure out that he wasn't going to change his ways for me...he was only going to change them for himself.

My therapist had me write a list of things I do know, since there seem to be so many things I don't know. Some things on my list:

I know I am at peace with the separation, haven't felt it for years.
I know I make enough money to take care of myself and the kids.
I know whatever happens, I will be fine.
I know his mom will still be his mom, and will continue to cause problems until the day she dies.
I know he is an alcoholic, and though he has completed rehab - he may still choose to drink.
I know I care about him, I love him, but I am not in love with him.
I know that I deserve to be happy, to feel love and to have the life that I want.
I know that I did everything I could to make this relationship work.

What are you doing for you?

Freedom1990

For me, decisions based on the 'what ifs' of the future were never healthy decisions.

I would have my head going in 12 different directions playing out all the possible scenarios.

All I've really got is today. As long as I stay in today and make my decisions accordingly, my mind is much clearer.

FindingPeace1

Thanks, everybody!

naive - great post. I am SOOOO excited about the reatreat. It IS vipassansa!! Have you done it??
intheknow - what's an RAH? recovering?
And the two weeks? Well, baby steps, right? It was too scary to do more and it fit into the time frame before Thanksgiving. So, its a start. I don't think, really, time away will change things. I think I have to choose one way or the other. Maybe the mini-break will help me choose...
What am I doing for me? NOT sleeping enough. It's not that I'm not tired - I AM exhausted! I just am wound up emotionally. I stay up too late. I'm REALLY dragging today. I am staying with friends who love me and I love. I am eating well. Planning to go to some more meetings. Reading Alanon literature. Journalling. I need to EXERCISE, for sure! Next week, I will go to see family for Thanksgiving, eat tofurkey, and go to the beach with my dog and neice and nephew, which will be heavenly.
bucyn - wow. thanks. that's a lot of thought. I'm not sure I'm with you on the exploitation part...I'll meditate on that. Knowing I could leave is self-care, not exploitation. I'll continue to think on that.
I'm ALL about books, so I will totally get that one!
You don't stay in an abusive relationship to prove anything, particularly to prove you are not defective. I dig that!

freedom - I am with you. It's the "progressive" part. I can't get my head around that. What it means. IF it will come to pass. I know everyone says live in the now, but in a way, its easier to do that. The future is so unknown. But the progressive thing says you have to think about the future and that complicates things. Its so unknown!

nothappy

Children are a way bigger commitment than marriage. You can walk away from a marriage but once children are involved things get way more complicated. You and the children are connected to the father FOREVER. Being a mother is the most fullfilling thing I've ever done. Being a wife to a nacissistic, sociopathic, alcoholic... not so great. RUN!

Gypsy Feet

I read the "to wives" chapter of the book several times lately. It pretty much tells wives tostay, and forgive, and be understanding. It was written in a different era, and it assumes the wives are healthy.

When I married my husband, I though long and hard about it, because although I was not religious, if I was going to make a promise before "God", I wanted to keep it.

I was married happily for about 9 years, living together unhappily for another 6 months, separated on and off for the next 5 years, happily (most of the time) separated now.

What I know now:
2 sick people in a marriage is a bad thing.

If I was working on his problems, or dealing with his sickness, working on me would be so much harder.

I can't fix him

For today, I am where I belong, which is hours away from my (ex), my kids and the rest of my family.

Right now I am working on reclaiming me.

Today, as far as I know, he is still a very sick man, and refuses to acknowledge his illness.

I hope for him a better life someday, but I spend my healing energies on myself today.

One other thing I know: Having an alcoholic for a parent is a hard thing. My children had 2 sick people raising them, it's not a choice I would make willingly again.

db68

I am too. Oh your story is so similar to mine it is scary. Exact same situation...husband moved out, he's an alcoholic....he admits it but says hes happy and refuses to change...and then tells me whats wrong with me and everyone we know. He has moved out...but so near the holidays and - as with your situation, my husband is a really wonderful guy whom i love dearly and married a bit oer a year ago, and thought i'd be with forever.
I also so wanted a child and family (im 41, so im letting that go, but heartbreaking that i chose to spend my childbearing years with him)

and, now, despite that i know its for the best, the stifling heart crushing lonliness i feel at having my husband leave. and the holidays coming. and should i file for divorce...such confusion.
yesterday i almost called to say come home, ill live with you, i miss you!
but then today im angry again, again i so related to what you wrote about the up and downs.
i don't know what to do. id love to talk more with you...

NYC_Chick

Your friends are not doing you any favors by telling you all couples have issues and this is just one of them. My friends family all told her the same thing when things were really bad. She came back from that trip telling me she was going to start planning her wedding. I knew more than her family. I begged her not to marry him. She chose to anyway. I decided to support her and be her maid of honor when she asked. Flash forward less than two years later...

Her husband was in and out of outpatient alcohol rehab. In and out of marriage counseling. He refused to leave her apartment and told her she could leave if she wanted. Ok. We made plans. She called to tell him her and her family would be there to collect her stuff. He threatened to Baricade the door and start worl war 3 if anyone tried to come in the apartment. The police were called. With supervision, she had 30 minutes to get her stuff out. She collected in the apartment, threw it out the door and her brother and his friend picked it up and put it in a rented suv. She mow has a restraining order against him and is moving to Nashville to stay with her family while she gets back on her feet financially.

You already know ho it's going to turn out, but don't want to see it. I really hope you see this before bringing children into this mess.

I'm almost 37 now and scared I won't have them if I don't find a healthy partner soon. Sad, but I would rather be here than stuck with xabf in a sick, twisted, manipulative relationship.

FindingPeace1

Aww shucks.

My husband called and was dropping all these messages like, "Well, you practically don't live here anymore, so..." or "since you moved out..." (expressing he is hurt I am gone - for 2 weeks, mind you - without saying it or being willing to talk it over). Though he obviously thinks I might not come back. He is just hurt but not talking...

me: what did you have for dinner?
him: pasta.
me: we have pasta?
him: well, I have pasta. If you return, then I can share it with you and WE can have pasta. (know that he is always emphasizing everything is OURS becuase we are married, so it is a dig on me being gone.)
me: How do you feel about me being gone?
him: Don't be hurtful. You're being mean. I've gotta go.

<sigh>
So I go to the store with my friend and I find, in my wallet, a little slip of paper (it must be old) from my husband that says, "I love you!" and I feel sweet and melty and sad.

Then later I notice a smokey smell and I realize its the top I have on (I don't smoke) and I am confused...then I finally decide he must have used the suitcase all my stuff is in on one of his work trips and smoked (he USED to smoke, then quit because I said I wasn't interested in dating a smoker, then hid it for a while, and we had a big blow up, then I - thought - really quit - a long time ago) and I am FURIOUS for the HIDING!!

Then I'm all WORKED UP and MAD and SAD and feel so pulled around...knowing it DOESN'T MATTER because I will never know because he wouldn't tell the truth anyway if he WAS...and if he WASN'T...well, he would be so HURT and offended that I FALSELY ACCUSED him...
then my friend reminds me he works in post-burn forest areas sometimes...so maybe that's it...so then I'm confused...and GUILTY for my reaction, and MAD that I am in a situation where I don't trust and MAD that I am feeling guilty when he COULD have smoked, but I'll never know...

You know that can really mix you up. Because something like this happens, then you get suspicious, then preoccupied about it (codependance alert), then want to snoop, then feel guilty and confused, then try to leave it, then wonder some more, then feel withdrawn, then more guilt, then you...just look around a little (making excuses for your own dysfunctional reaction)...then you feel like crap, then you try to forget and can go on (in denial of your trust issues) till the next thing.

Luckily, the next thing with him can be a year later, so that's alot of great times in comparison, but the yucky stuff messes with your head anyway.

I have TRUST ISSUES with my husband. Wow.
I hope my health insurance approves therapy for me.

Marie_A

It was also written by Bill Wilson himself.

NYC_Chick

I'm glad you are trying to get therapy. What he is doing is textbook manipulation. I have a million stories like this and so does everyone else on here. Any conversation you have with him will be twisted, so be prepared. Hugs!

MissFixit

Hey there,

"freedom - I am with you. It's the "progressive" part. I can't get my head around that. What it means. IF it will come to pass. I know everyone says live in the now, but in a way, its easier to do that. The future is so unknown. But the progressive thing says you have to think about the future and that complicates things. Its so unknown! "

Progressive to me means that today is the best its going to be. There might be a day or two ir three of sane times, but it is down hill from here unless both parties seek recovery and get healthy. To me this is an absolute in a relationship with an active addict. I NEVER believed it before. Thought we were the exception. NOW, I don't think there are exceptions.

I have TRUST ISSUES with my husband. Wow.
I have trust issues now too. They are as a result of staying with an active A, believing thisngs would get better and years later finding out they got worse. I hope you don't take my path. I am a year out from our break up and have bad trust issues still. I don't see them going away anytime soon unfortunately. That situation took my self esteem and confidence and I am desperately trying to build it back now.

Hugs to you

whereisthisgoin

Do you think your ah would go into recovery?

Seems like you still love the man...

naive

hi wife-

you did a great job of verbalizing that obsessive mind cycle that lack of trust brings. it's awful. for me, it kept building until quite a bit of my mental energy was spent in it.

if it's possible, can you minimize speaking to him? i don't know how you will get a break from him if you're still speaking to him. perhaps you could tell him that you're feeling confused and need some time to yourself. and then, take it!

it's your life and you are free, right now.

naive

Ago

Physical & Emotional Abuse Discussions at DailyStrength: Worth Reading and re-posting...

FindingPeace1

miss fix it - that's a great way to look at "progressive". Disturbing. But clear.

whereisthis going - I adore him. I love him. I think he's fabulous (when he's not being difficult!). He's fun. He's got shared values and interests with me, he's responsible, attentive, thoughtful, generous, shares a dream of a future with me, he's gorgeous, smart, a hard worker, does the dishes and the laundry, affectionate, loving, etc. etc.

All this is true AND he WILL NOT do therapy or AA. Period. He will not discuss his past relationships. He WILL NOT discuss anything he sees as dark side/ weakness/ foibles/ imperfections. What you see is what you get. Growth and change is on his terms, his time, and doesn't involve me (although he does grow and change).

If I try to talk about any of that, he will minimize, avoid, use sarcasm, say irrational things, run away, or tell me "You're putting me on the stand. What are you, a lawyer? I'm not going to say anything because you'll use it against me!" So...that's how that goes. He is all of those things.

I think I accommodate him by avoiding awkward stuff and so we get into a weird conversation that goes all yuck only rarely (every 6 months maybe?). In the good times, its great. The only reason I have not dropped back into my normal roll is because of what you all keep saying. Its keeping me present to the ALL. Its making me crazy to try to hold the fullness of everything our relationship is, but I think its good because it IS all those things and I just ignore the yuck, generally.

The thing is, he's not physically abusive IN ANY WAY. He's not demeaning or mean. He's not absent or irresponsible (although, he did drive once that I know of with wine, so I can't say that 100%). He's never drunk in my presence. He doesn't even drink much around me - regularly, but not alot.
He seems way better than tons and tons of the alcoholics on here. So that makes me wonder if I am "blowing it out of proportion" (as he says I am). Or am I setting a high standard and that is good? Or expecting too much, which is bad...

I also know there is no answer, but what feels right for me. It just seems like a lot to lose if I leave, but a loss of self if I stay.

bucyn - yea, I see where you are coming from with smoking. When we met and he was a smoker, I made it clear I was not interested in dating a smoker. No hard feelings, just not my cup of tea. He said he had wanted to quit anyway. So he "quit". But not really. Then he snuck and hid. I smelled it on him, wondered, questioned myself, felt guilty about it, distrusted, supressed my distrust (something must be wrong with ME), until I came over as a surprise and saw his cigarettes.
We had "the talk". It was about honesty. He swore it was done. It seemed to be done. My issue is, I made my needs clear, then he snuck and hid. That feels bad and messes with my head. Of course, I didn't hold up the boundary with any consequence. (Doh!)
So, you're right. He can do what he wants. But I already said I didn't want a smoker. Maybe, if our issue was just that, I could say I was wrong and I don't want him smoking around me. But it is bigger than that.
I see our issue as the fact that he can't be REAL with me about who he is. If he is real, then I can choose if I like it or not. If he is not real, I get a mind-f*ck if I try to even think about it.
I am trying to avoid the hope that if I left, it might shake him up enough to consider therapy or AA (you did not cause it, you can't control it, you can't change it - or him!).

He called today and I missed his call. He said he was feeling sad and not knowing how I felt and wondering about it all. (was he drinking?? no way to know...) It was refreshing to hear feelings!! Is it just more spinning around? Will that conversation go anywhere or change anything when we have it? Who knows. Probably not.
I have spoken to him only a few times. I am very resistant to no contact. Not sure exactly why.

About him being an Emotional Abuser...I know we ALL pull that crap on one another sometimes or about some things. Where the line is between being emotionally abusive and being an emotional abuser is unclear. I feel like he is the former sometimes, but I recognize I have biases that mess with my head. I don't want to be in denial, but I don't want to overreact, either. I am sarcastic or shut down or pouty or whatever around sensitive stuff, too...
I know I have to figure out how much is okay. GOD ONLY KNOWS! That decision seems impossible right now.

You all are wonderful. Thank you.
Hugs.