How do discuss custody when XH is in denial?
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How do discuss custody when XH is in denial?
My mediation session is slated for November 19. As per the requirements of the province, we will be attending at least one session so that we prove that we tried to work it out. We have a right to 6 free sessions with an accredited mediator, to hammer out the details of our separation and custody of our child.
Now that I've left the apartment, my XH is being oh-so logical and rational when writing to me. I think he knows I've hired a lawyer or he's afraid of appearing irrational/unfit. It ticks me off, to be quite honest. I *know* what a nutcase he is, I *remember* the lies he told me, the money he stole, the names he called me...and now I'm dealing with Mr. Nice Guy. Ugh.
I'm wondering if someone on SR has experience dealing with custody issues and an ex alcoholic spouse, albeit a highly functional one. In mediation, I plan on bringing up the following concerns:
1) Lack of involvement in caring for my daughter
2) Anger management issues (hitting walls, yelling, cussing, self-mutilation)
3) Daily consumption of alcohol, which I've calculated is at a minimum 2 litres of beer per weekday, more on week-ends. In addition, when I moved, I saw that he has started to take sleeping pills again, as he did when we first lived together. The combination of sedatives and alcohol REALLY concerns me with regards to him having my daughter overnight.
I think we can negociate gradual involvement in caring for my daughter, but I really have no idea how to bring up his problems with anger and the drinking. He could easily deny the anger management issues (though there are holes in the kitchen walls and he does have plenty of scars on his shoulder/upper arm). He will categorically deny that he has a drinking problem, and since he is highly functional, I don't know how to prove it's an issue.
How do I bring this up in mediation? Should I insist that while he has my daughter, he is to remain calm and sober? How do I guarantee this?
Now that I've left the apartment, my XH is being oh-so logical and rational when writing to me. I think he knows I've hired a lawyer or he's afraid of appearing irrational/unfit. It ticks me off, to be quite honest. I *know* what a nutcase he is, I *remember* the lies he told me, the money he stole, the names he called me...and now I'm dealing with Mr. Nice Guy. Ugh.
I'm wondering if someone on SR has experience dealing with custody issues and an ex alcoholic spouse, albeit a highly functional one. In mediation, I plan on bringing up the following concerns:
1) Lack of involvement in caring for my daughter
2) Anger management issues (hitting walls, yelling, cussing, self-mutilation)
3) Daily consumption of alcohol, which I've calculated is at a minimum 2 litres of beer per weekday, more on week-ends. In addition, when I moved, I saw that he has started to take sleeping pills again, as he did when we first lived together. The combination of sedatives and alcohol REALLY concerns me with regards to him having my daughter overnight.
I think we can negociate gradual involvement in caring for my daughter, but I really have no idea how to bring up his problems with anger and the drinking. He could easily deny the anger management issues (though there are holes in the kitchen walls and he does have plenty of scars on his shoulder/upper arm). He will categorically deny that he has a drinking problem, and since he is highly functional, I don't know how to prove it's an issue.
How do I bring this up in mediation? Should I insist that while he has my daughter, he is to remain calm and sober? How do I guarantee this?
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Land of Cotton
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I think you'll have to substantiate your accusations as best you can to give them some credibility: Take pictures of the holes in the wall!! Gather any and all evidence that you can. Can you get debit card or credit card records of the money that was spent at the liquor store? Has he ever had a DUI? Have the police ever been called to your house? Are there family members or friends that, if deposed, would corroberate your claims? Neighbors? Anyone that you've complained to in the past? Any trouble at work? Have you ever sought professional counseling? Told your doctor about any of this? Ever called a hotline of any kind? Ever kept a journal?
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 633
Do you have any proof of his drinking? I took my exah party store receipts and took pictures of his beer stashes. Do you have and crazy voicemails or emails from him? Did he ever use debit or credit cards to obtain alcohol?
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Hmm...no DUIs (no license for that matter), no arrests or convictions, no trouble at his work.
My family would be more than willing to corroborate the hidden bottles of Jack in their closet, the tons of cans of beer. His son could easily corroborate having to clean up the empties, but I don't want to drag him into this. His mother and sister could also corroborate the drinking, but I doubt they'd be willing to testify considering he threatened to cut them off from his son if they ever interfered again.
I've consulted two counsellors with my EAP, and told them about the drinking and anger issues. I've also consulted a social worker at the community clinic and spoken to someone in the crisis center when he got out of hand. I don't know how I'd use these though...wouldn't a judge need to order these people to divulge what they know?
I'll have to look at my bank statements to see if there are purchases at a corner store (you can buy beer at the corner store here, so it makes it more difficult to prove that alcohol was purchased...)...
Ugh.
My family would be more than willing to corroborate the hidden bottles of Jack in their closet, the tons of cans of beer. His son could easily corroborate having to clean up the empties, but I don't want to drag him into this. His mother and sister could also corroborate the drinking, but I doubt they'd be willing to testify considering he threatened to cut them off from his son if they ever interfered again.
I've consulted two counsellors with my EAP, and told them about the drinking and anger issues. I've also consulted a social worker at the community clinic and spoken to someone in the crisis center when he got out of hand. I don't know how I'd use these though...wouldn't a judge need to order these people to divulge what they know?
I'll have to look at my bank statements to see if there are purchases at a corner store (you can buy beer at the corner store here, so it makes it more difficult to prove that alcohol was purchased...)...
Ugh.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
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1) Lack of involvement in caring for my daughter
2) Anger management issues (hitting walls, yelling, cussing, self-mutilation)
3) Daily consumption of alcohol, which I've calculated is at a minimum 2 litres of beer per weekday, more on week-ends. In addition, when I moved, I saw that he has started to take sleeping pills again, as he did when we first lived together. The combination of sedatives and alcohol REALLY concerns me with regards to him having my daughter overnight.
Document, document, document!
Start keeping a dated/timed journal of his behavior that disturbs/concerns you. Just the facts, no words of judgement.
The list you started above is great. If you can add any specific details to it, like that your parents found hidden bottles of Jack Daniels, etc. As many factual details as you can remember.
You're not out to screw him, you're out to protect your DD.
Good luck--
B
2) Anger management issues (hitting walls, yelling, cussing, self-mutilation)
3) Daily consumption of alcohol, which I've calculated is at a minimum 2 litres of beer per weekday, more on week-ends. In addition, when I moved, I saw that he has started to take sleeping pills again, as he did when we first lived together. The combination of sedatives and alcohol REALLY concerns me with regards to him having my daughter overnight.
Document, document, document!
Start keeping a dated/timed journal of his behavior that disturbs/concerns you. Just the facts, no words of judgement.
The list you started above is great. If you can add any specific details to it, like that your parents found hidden bottles of Jack Daniels, etc. As many factual details as you can remember.
You're not out to screw him, you're out to protect your DD.
Good luck--
B
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 693
I know you don't want to drag other people into this but it will be your word against his. So you may have to--especially if you want to protect your daughter and yourself against his violent outburts. Also, mixing alcohol and sleeping pills is a huge danger to your daughter. Something I did yesterday (and I am unsure it will do any good) was to set out what I wanted in writing, shoot it off to my atty. and he forwarded it to AH's atty. because it was time to talk about his alcohol and drug abuse. I have my doubts he has mentioned that "little problem" with his lawyer.
If we wind up in family court counseling they assign us a counselor and mediator. They talk to each of us alone, each of us alone with the kids, the kids, family, friends, neighbors, counselors--whoever they need to--especially in cases where alcohol, drug or domestic abuse is involved. Do they do that where you live? I will need to provide them a list. I do not know if AH will have to provide any records but he has gone to AODA counseling twice (because I made him--OK, I was not going to AlAnon or found you guys yet
) so there are records of that-and that he never followed through. There are also records of me going to marriage counseling with him and alcohol was an issue. He may need to sign the release for that too. I went to the rehab clinic as the spouse of a user and got counseling so there are records of that. I talked to doctors. I too called my EAP to get information on what to do. I called a domestic violence hotline. I don't know if they keep records of that.
As others have said--document everything--try to do it daily because some times things start to blur together when it happens often enough.
You just named a few things that will corroborate what you tell the mediator about his behavior. Get all the records from places you have gone and bring them with you. It shows a pattern of abuse and that his behavior was not a one time anomaly.
I started to journal on my work calendar (made it private so others can't see it). I name the "appointment" AH stuff--so when I need to go looking for it I can just bring it up and print it out.
I hope things go well with mediation. Also, if all these things are brought up it is possible your XH will revert to his usual way of dealing with things. If you remain the calm, sane one (and you are) the mediator will notice that.
If we wind up in family court counseling they assign us a counselor and mediator. They talk to each of us alone, each of us alone with the kids, the kids, family, friends, neighbors, counselors--whoever they need to--especially in cases where alcohol, drug or domestic abuse is involved. Do they do that where you live? I will need to provide them a list. I do not know if AH will have to provide any records but he has gone to AODA counseling twice (because I made him--OK, I was not going to AlAnon or found you guys yet
) so there are records of that-and that he never followed through. There are also records of me going to marriage counseling with him and alcohol was an issue. He may need to sign the release for that too. I went to the rehab clinic as the spouse of a user and got counseling so there are records of that. I talked to doctors. I too called my EAP to get information on what to do. I called a domestic violence hotline. I don't know if they keep records of that.As others have said--document everything--try to do it daily because some times things start to blur together when it happens often enough.
You just named a few things that will corroborate what you tell the mediator about his behavior. Get all the records from places you have gone and bring them with you. It shows a pattern of abuse and that his behavior was not a one time anomaly.
I started to journal on my work calendar (made it private so others can't see it). I name the "appointment" AH stuff--so when I need to go looking for it I can just bring it up and print it out.
I hope things go well with mediation. Also, if all these things are brought up it is possible your XH will revert to his usual way of dealing with things. If you remain the calm, sane one (and you are) the mediator will notice that.
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Quebec
Posts: 2,708
How do I go about documenting when I've moved out and have no contact with him?
I tried to backtrack to specific times and dates I could remember, but aside from that, I don't have much.
I tried to backtrack to specific times and dates I could remember, but aside from that, I don't have much.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
Documenting really means just writing it down in as professional and logical a way that you can.
Don't stress, just try to remember dates and incidents as best you can.
"Parents found 2 pint bottles of Jack Daniels that AH had hidden in guest room closet in Oct. 2009. When confronted AH admitted to hiding alcohol. Parents willing to corroborate." Like that.
And print out and attach any emails or txts that are revealing.
Do you have access to online banking statements that show amt's of money spent at liquor stores or bars?
I printed emails between my exH and the woman he was sleeping with.
I took pictures of all the appliances he smashed up the day he flipped out and it was finally over.
I had a loose diary of the emotional abandonment I had been enduring.
He couldn't really argue with any of it. But his nature is passive and lazy so I know we all deal with different issues.
peace-
B
Don't stress, just try to remember dates and incidents as best you can.
"Parents found 2 pint bottles of Jack Daniels that AH had hidden in guest room closet in Oct. 2009. When confronted AH admitted to hiding alcohol. Parents willing to corroborate." Like that.
And print out and attach any emails or txts that are revealing.
Do you have access to online banking statements that show amt's of money spent at liquor stores or bars?
I printed emails between my exH and the woman he was sleeping with.
I took pictures of all the appliances he smashed up the day he flipped out and it was finally over.
I had a loose diary of the emotional abandonment I had been enduring.
He couldn't really argue with any of it. But his nature is passive and lazy so I know we all deal with different issues.
peace-
B
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Quebec
Posts: 2,708
Another question...XH wants me to write down the reasons why I currently have custody of our DD, and to specify that this is only temporary (it's weird, he's REALLY afraid of not getting shared custody). So far, he thinks that the only reason DD isn't with him half the week is because I manipulated the situation by nursing her to 15 months...oh god, how horrible of me.
I'm wondering if I should flat out tell him that I think he's a functional alcoholic with rage issues, or if I should keep it to myself until mediation. It would make our conversations a lot more "honest" but then again, he might find ways to hide his drinking or get his friends to deny he ever drinks...He can be very sneaky.
I'm wondering if I should flat out tell him that I think he's a functional alcoholic with rage issues, or if I should keep it to myself until mediation. It would make our conversations a lot more "honest" but then again, he might find ways to hide his drinking or get his friends to deny he ever drinks...He can be very sneaky.
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Land of Cotton
Posts: 3,433
Originally Posted by imtheidiot 
Another question...XH wants me to write down the reasons why I currently have custody of our DD, and to specify that this is only temporary .
I asked about getting professional counseling because with your permission they could release their notes or write a letter stating that you came to their office on ____ (date) to discuss _________. In other words they release their records to corroberate your story that there is a long history of his anger/drinking issues.
At the shelter where I work we keep those records for that specific purpose (in case they are needed in court) and no other.
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I guess I'm so used to doing what he asks, if only to avoid a big drama, that I don't know how to react now. He keeps DEMANDING and then ASKING me to write stuff down, as if he's afraid of going into mediation without anything in writing from me.
I don't know what to tell him until mediation happens...
I don't know what to tell him until mediation happens...
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Down Under
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Hi there, I'm going through exactly the same thing as you at the moment. It has to be the most draining and tiring time of my life so far. So, first off, I feel for you, make sure you are looking after yourself - I know, easier said than done!
The way you describe the mediation process in Canada sounds similar to Australia. Here, it's not a legal process as such. Mediation in Aus was started to alleviate the burden on the family courts. It's just a process to allow separating parents to discuss and agree parenting plans etc with a neutral 3rd party. While the mediators have some knowledge of Family Law they can't "rule" over us merely keep the discussions on track. So, I was advised that no amount of 'evidence' would make a difference. The mediators believe both parties and try to get them to some middle ground. Then, if mediation breaks down then it goes to the solicitors/lawyers and the Family Court.
If this sounds like the Canadian process then attend the session but be clear about what you'd like with regards to custody, outlining why, then if your ex point-blank disagrees then mediation will break down, be unresolved, then it's off to court where evidence will be required. If this doesn't sound like the Canadian process then ignore everything I've just said
At any rate, you should start gathering all the evidence you can and start documenting. I've kept an online diary for the past 2 + years with Online Diary and Weblog Service :: Onlinediary.net. It's free and logs the date and time you made the entry - my solicitor thinks it's good way to record things. Be factual, write names in full, keep emotion out of it.
Even separated, you can still "keep tabs" on him. I note each time he rings the kids to say goodnight, and his voice is slurring. I record comments the kids have made to me which are incriminating for him. While I don't want to involve the kids in any of the legal wrangling, I figure that pages and pages of this stuff will just overwhelm him and his solicitor, and give no doubt that he tries to manipulate the kids time and time again.
The more I read your post the more your ex sounds like mine. Mine also, harps on and on to me that I have to be "open and honest" with him regarding what I'm going to bring up in mediation. To begin with I was (to keep the peace), but realised he was following his own rules regarding being "open and honest". Plus, he would try to tell me what I couldn't say. So, now I merely say to him that "I'll bring up anything that I think is relevant", and leave it at that.
He always rolls his eyes in the mediation room when I get out my note pad and my list of things I want to bring up and discuss. (I do this because he gets me tongue-tied and nervous). My ex also doesn't do himself any favours in the session. He also has anger problems and doesn't temper them in mediation either, normally he shows his colours within the first few minutes of the session, so his outbursts will help your case, don't try to do things to deflate the drama (I know I have done in the past - the eternal peace keeper I am!). If he does get heated up in mediation - let him, you keep your calm, it'll only reflect badly on him.
Good luck with it. Let us know how it goes.
Lorrae
The way you describe the mediation process in Canada sounds similar to Australia. Here, it's not a legal process as such. Mediation in Aus was started to alleviate the burden on the family courts. It's just a process to allow separating parents to discuss and agree parenting plans etc with a neutral 3rd party. While the mediators have some knowledge of Family Law they can't "rule" over us merely keep the discussions on track. So, I was advised that no amount of 'evidence' would make a difference. The mediators believe both parties and try to get them to some middle ground. Then, if mediation breaks down then it goes to the solicitors/lawyers and the Family Court.
If this sounds like the Canadian process then attend the session but be clear about what you'd like with regards to custody, outlining why, then if your ex point-blank disagrees then mediation will break down, be unresolved, then it's off to court where evidence will be required. If this doesn't sound like the Canadian process then ignore everything I've just said
At any rate, you should start gathering all the evidence you can and start documenting. I've kept an online diary for the past 2 + years with Online Diary and Weblog Service :: Onlinediary.net. It's free and logs the date and time you made the entry - my solicitor thinks it's good way to record things. Be factual, write names in full, keep emotion out of it.
Even separated, you can still "keep tabs" on him. I note each time he rings the kids to say goodnight, and his voice is slurring. I record comments the kids have made to me which are incriminating for him. While I don't want to involve the kids in any of the legal wrangling, I figure that pages and pages of this stuff will just overwhelm him and his solicitor, and give no doubt that he tries to manipulate the kids time and time again.
The more I read your post the more your ex sounds like mine. Mine also, harps on and on to me that I have to be "open and honest" with him regarding what I'm going to bring up in mediation. To begin with I was (to keep the peace), but realised he was following his own rules regarding being "open and honest". Plus, he would try to tell me what I couldn't say. So, now I merely say to him that "I'll bring up anything that I think is relevant", and leave it at that.
He always rolls his eyes in the mediation room when I get out my note pad and my list of things I want to bring up and discuss. (I do this because he gets me tongue-tied and nervous). My ex also doesn't do himself any favours in the session. He also has anger problems and doesn't temper them in mediation either, normally he shows his colours within the first few minutes of the session, so his outbursts will help your case, don't try to do things to deflate the drama (I know I have done in the past - the eternal peace keeper I am!). If he does get heated up in mediation - let him, you keep your calm, it'll only reflect badly on him.
Good luck with it. Let us know how it goes.
Lorrae
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Down Under
Posts: 25
What a coincidence! I've just checked my diary, I've got my next mediation session on the 19th too. Ex thinks he's going to get some of his days with the kids back (he lost them due to some relapses!). He's in for a shock!!
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: South Australia
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I have been in the same situation as yours: separated from highly functioning alcoholic and 2 kids in the middle. As I mentioned in an earlier post, somehow, my exAH's custody threats disapeared after he had to look after the 2 kids for several days when I was in hospital.
However, he had tried the same tricks as yours before that point: very logical, rational, emails that made me feel like I was a kid and he was the "konw it all" adult in the situation. In my case, I had decided that if mediation was not to work, I would simply subponoa his relatives to testify in court on his alcohol and pot issues. In a way, I am lucky because over the years, he has seen several doctors about his problem with alcohol and I was prepared to subponoe their records as well.
The bottomline is: you are not the only one on earth who has suffered the consequences of his drinking. If his relatives are not willing to testify, you can subponoe them. Think about it: there must be friends, etc who have seen his antics when he is drunk.
Good luck with all this. This is so daunting....
However, he had tried the same tricks as yours before that point: very logical, rational, emails that made me feel like I was a kid and he was the "konw it all" adult in the situation. In my case, I had decided that if mediation was not to work, I would simply subponoa his relatives to testify in court on his alcohol and pot issues. In a way, I am lucky because over the years, he has seen several doctors about his problem with alcohol and I was prepared to subponoe their records as well.
The bottomline is: you are not the only one on earth who has suffered the consequences of his drinking. If his relatives are not willing to testify, you can subponoe them. Think about it: there must be friends, etc who have seen his antics when he is drunk.
Good luck with all this. This is so daunting....
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Posts: 2,615
(((I don't know what to tell him until mediation happens)))
Tell him NO, you cannot do as he has asked.
Don't make any comments to him or about him, or discuss it at all before mediation, as he has made threats to you about custody issues, and you don't need to give him anything he could twist around against you.
He is in no position to be demanding anything, but can't help doing what has worked on you in the past so is quacking bigtime. Truthfully he is probably terrified inside, which is why he is doing this to you.
You have only a few more days and then the mediation, so ignore him and gather all the items you can get, and as much support as possible for court, and with luck, as Lorrae said, he may lose his cool, act like a jerk and blow it, right in front of your mediator.
All the best wishes in the world to you.
God bless
Tell him NO, you cannot do as he has asked.
Don't make any comments to him or about him, or discuss it at all before mediation, as he has made threats to you about custody issues, and you don't need to give him anything he could twist around against you.
He is in no position to be demanding anything, but can't help doing what has worked on you in the past so is quacking bigtime. Truthfully he is probably terrified inside, which is why he is doing this to you.
You have only a few more days and then the mediation, so ignore him and gather all the items you can get, and as much support as possible for court, and with luck, as Lorrae said, he may lose his cool, act like a jerk and blow it, right in front of your mediator.
All the best wishes in the world to you.
God bless
Occasional poor taste poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,542
Originally Posted by imtheidiot
Another question...XH wants me to write down the reasons ....
You can say no.
You can say I'm not ready to discuss that now.
or, That will have to be settled with legal counsel involved or in mediation.
You owe him nothing more than that.
BTW, my guess is his shared custody concerns are financially based or control motivated and not because he's such a loving caring father.
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