Can you be friends with an alcoholic?

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Old 10-24-2009, 11:31 AM
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Can you be friends with an alcoholic?

My ex has been calling and texting for about a month and I haven't responded to anyting. Got his very first DUI two nights ago and put my name and his parents' names down as people to call. Bail bondsman asked if I wanted to pay bail and cosign for xabf. No and no. So after much consideration I called his dad (who I've never MET) and told him the situation. My ex text me later that night 'thanks' and I called him (I know, I know) and asked him if he was okay. He said he was but that he desperately wanted to be my friend and wanted to stay on the phone for hours and catch up. I told him that I was concerned about him getting a DUI but that it was not a good idea for us to talk anymore.

Since I wont answer the phone he has been following me through the halls at work for weeks pressuring me for friendship to the point that it's a little funny. I've actually laughed at him on occasion which I think is giving him the wrong impression. Truth is, he hurt me a lot and I will never be with him again, but I do miss him as a friend. He'd have to MOVE MOUNTAINS to earn my trust back again, texts and calls wont cut it, and who knows if he has that in him. He might not.

Is it possible to be friends with an alcoholic? Any advice welcome.
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:18 PM
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As an alcoholic in recovery, I would say...let him go. He has alot of stuff to work out on his own it sounds like. You shouldn't feel "pressured" into doing anything you don't want to do. If he is following you around at work--I would consider that harrassment. By talking to him, it is in a way giving him the wrong impression, but again--he has the problem...not you. You didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it---his alcoholism. You asked whether or not one can be friends with an alcoholic--to me, the answer is yes....it is possible, however in this case he needs to find other friends in recovery that can help him. You can also seek support for yourself if you'd like--which is why I am glad you posted this. If he continues to bother you at work---tell someone in authority at the job...like a manager or boss etc. Alcoholics are good at taking other people "hostage" at certain times---especially when we feel like we are losing something...which is always centered around our self-centered behavior. You already told him that you don't want to talk to him anymore which should have already ended him asking you about being friends.
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy4Him View Post

Is it possible to be friends with an alcoholic?
Is it possible to be friends with an alcoholic?

Yes

Is it advisable for you to be friends with an exBF who has been abusive in the past that you thus far have had difficulty in being honest with yourself about your own agenda because you still have feelings for him?

No

You being friends with this man is like a crack addict playing with a crack pipe, just not a very good idea overall, there is no "being just friends" in unhealthy addictive relationships with the "love addict/love avoidant" dynamic, it's all just "more of the same" with him coming at you with the "wall of seduction" at the moment

you ever think about attending SLAA? or reading the literature?
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Old 10-24-2009, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy4Him View Post
Truth is, he hurt me a lot and I will never be with him again, but I do miss him as a friend.

Is it possible to be friends with an alcoholic? Any advice welcome.
If that's the Truth, then no. Not a friend, not a girlfriend, not a wife, etc. Maybe a hostage, but you said you're done with that. Relationships are not downwardly compatible like computer operating systems.

You cannot go from friend to intimate to friend. You know it and I know it and he knows it.

Now the opinion/advice part; any attempts to do so will only further hurt/harm him and yourself.

Now you are given a perfect opportunity to detach from him and be free of him.

Hate to say it, but until he gets 100% recovered from booze, he is a loser and it's not your fault and you cannot fix it... nor did you create it.

Hope this helps and sorry for the situation.

PS: another bit of advice... find someone who can handle their booze or with which it is not an issue. This you can choose.
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Old 10-24-2009, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy4Him View Post
Truth is, he hurt me a lot and I will never be with him again, but I do miss him as a friend.
Is it possible to be friends with an alcoholic? Any advice welcome.
If this person were a relative stranger and they treated you that way, would you want them as a friend?

If the clerk at the grocery store treated you the way your friend treats you, would you complain to the manager?
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Old 10-24-2009, 01:29 PM
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McGowdog,

Who is that new pup in your photo?
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Old 10-24-2009, 01:41 PM
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It's a Halloween thang.
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Old 10-24-2009, 02:42 PM
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Thanks guys. We were friends for years before he started drinking again. He was a fun and wonderful friend never once did he raise his voice or say one cruel thing to me.

I have the feeling he only wants to be friends because he wants me back as his girlfriend (enabler)? Do exes really ever want to be just friends? There is always some alterior motive isn't there? Especially when there's residual anger and alcoholism involved.

Ago what is SLAA?
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Old 10-24-2009, 04:33 PM
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IMHO, x'es only want to be friends for this.......... AN OPTION, to hang on tight.. to avoid making changes, to avoid commitment with others...

but.. that is only my opinion, I could be wrong and narrow minded tonight??
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Old 10-24-2009, 04:43 PM
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Ago... after taking that SLAA 'test' I was so very happy at my ability to answer NO to all but 2 questions. BUT, last year at this time, I would have had a different story. Ah.. I am so happy with myself and my progress. Thanks for posting that Ago!..
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:06 PM
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I have the feeling he only wants to be friends because he wants me back as his girlfriend (enabler)? Do exes really ever want to be just friends? There is always some alterior motive isn't there? Especially when there's residual anger and alcoholism involved.

Ago what is SLAA?
Right now he is coming at you with "the wall of seduction, there is no friendship in that, but control, love addiction, and codependency

It's a program for dealing with relationship issues

I'll got get some info, bbiab

Originally Posted by FreeBird09 View Post
IMHO, x'es only want to be friends for this.......... AN OPTION, to hang on tight.. to avoid making changes, to avoid commitment with others...

but.. that is only my opinion, I could be wrong and narrow minded tonight??
I'm friends with my exes but one, the most recent, but I'm from Marin, we're weird that way, they are the ones I go to when I need a females POV in a relationship situation.

But I'm sober, have no "hidden agenda" and time had to pass for that to happen.
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:16 PM
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stick with it, read the whole thing, if I had to guess I'd guess from reading the various threads here, I'd guess about 90% of the posters here have this going on, especially the love avoidant, it was certainly an eye opener for me

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...al-matter.html

*First the client has trouble having a sense of self, spending much of his or her life living in reaction to the object of their affection rather than in action for the self. This is the reality issue; it causes the client to feel empty inside and causes the client to endlessly blame others for how he/she feels emotionally or for what he/she has done.

*Second, the client does not experience inherent worth. He or she gauges his/her sense of value through a process of endless comparison to others, and is too dependent on others to establish either a sense of value or self. This interferes with his/her ability to maturely love others. She generally can hold another person in warm regard only when the other is "behaving properly," or when he/she has created a comfortable fantasy about the other person and uses denial to avoid looking at the other's disturbing behavior.

*Third, the client has no personal boundary system with which to protect and contain himself/herself during intimate exchange. This leads to abusive behavior on her part and involves control and manipulation, raging, ridiculing, lying and/or high tolerance for this type of behavior in a partner.

*The fourth problem involves poor self-care, leading to dependency and interdependency problems in a relationship.

The Starting Point---Love Addiction

alcohol or drug addictions should be addressed first and foremost. the client must have the ability to think and feel without a mood altering substance. Subsequently, the primary behavioral addiction to be considered is love addiction. A Love addict has been traumatized in childhood by being neglected or abandoned by either parents. The child who suffers from neglect or abandonment learns three toxic ideas from this trauma.

*In a relationship he is worth less than his partner. This kind of trauma is extremely shaming and relationally he will assume a victimposture allowing his partner to be abusive. He will see the partner as a higher power and will literally worship them--giving him a feeling of helplessness---resulting in a lack of self-esteem. The Love Addict does not esteem himself in the relationship, therefore the partner will often assume a position of disrespect and relate out of duty, not love.

*He needs a partner to take care of him. he believes that he cannot take care of himself and emonstrates poor self-care skills, therefore the partner will feel the Love Addict is a burden.

*If he does not get close enough to the partner he will not survive. This client believes that he cannot leave a partner because if he did---he would die. Therefore, the client will exercise no personal boundaries resulting in the partner feeling suffocated and victimized.
This toxicity drives the obsessive/compulsive relational cycle of love addiction. the cycle starts with the Love Addict constructing a fantasy that the partner is a god or goddess, although denial is used to protect the fantasy. Eventually, an event occurs that destroys the fantasy and the love addict goes into withdrawal from the fantasy. The withdrawal is experienced as severe depression, rage, panic, and toxic shame. The Love Addict will then try to relieve the emotional withdrawal by self-medicating with food, drugs, sexual encounters, smoking, alcohol, or locating another person to become the object of addiction. If the partner returns expressing seductive qualities, the Love Addict will pass out of withdrawal and return to fantasy. As a result, the love addict cycle will begin all over again.


Love Avoidance
At the other end of the continuum is love avoidance, an obsessive/compulsive relational cycle that begins with the child's enmeshment with parents (meaning one or both of the parents has no boundaries with the child). The child becomes the support network and provides care for the parents. This concept is best understood by examining the roles a child plays in a dysfunctional family system, such as the family counselor, mediator, mascot, scapegoat, or hero.
Oftentimes, the child may be a surrogate parent to younger siblings. In other situations, "Daddy's little girl" is a situation where the female child is more important to her father than her mother. The child feels superior to her mother and will later serve as her father's surrogate spouse. At the other end of the spectrum, "Mom's little man" is when the son is more important than the father. As, a result, the son often feels superior to the father and becomes a surrogate spouse. In these described roles, the child feels very close to the parent, but is actually too close. He has to adapt too much to the needs of the parent and in the adaptation loses a sense of self and spontaneity. As an adult he will feel easily bored and empty inside, which drives his need to use risk taking to create intensity.
Being enmeshed by a parent creates three toxic ideas in the Love Avoidant:

*When in a relationship with a needy person the Love Avoidant is superior. He will assume a parental position, have all the power, and look down on his partner. This is a core self-issue of poor self-esteem and in a relationship it will cause him to be controlling and disdainful of the partner.

*It is the Love Avoidant's job to take care of needy people. This is how he knows to be relational. It becomes part of his value system and if he is not taking care of someone in need, he feels guilty. As a core self-issue it is a dependency or self-care issue. It causes resentment of the partner, as the love avoidant feels oppressed by his perceived responsibility. He too enters relationships out of duty, not love.

*If the Love Avoidant does not maintain enough distance in a relationship, he will be suffocated. As a result, he uses "walls" to create the distance he needs. As a core issue, this is a boundary problem.

These three toxic thoughts drive a compulsive relational cycle called "the cycle of love avoidance." The cycle starts with the Love Avoidant entering a relationship because the other person needs assistance. The prospective partner seems needy and the avoidant appears to enter the relationship to avoid guilt and because it makes him feel good about himself. However, the Love Avoidant doesn't actually enter a true relationship. He is hiding behind a "wall of seduction" that causes the prospective partner to feel special, but in reality the Avoidant is simply role-playing. The Avoidant is contemplating the relationship out of duty, not love. The result is resentment at having to work so hard to be in a relationship in which he really doesn't want to participate. He then uses the anger to justify his escape from the duty-bound relationship.
As self-medication, he seeks high intensity to relieve his boredom and make him feel wonderful. He starts risk-taking behavior such as sexually acting out, gambling with money or his life, drinking, drugging, or work addiction. However, following such behavior, he starts to feel guilty because he is not properly caring for his partner, so he returns out of guilt and restarts the entire avoidant cycle.
Humans tend to be relationally attracted to what is familiar. The Love Addict is attracted to people who are distant and relationally irresponsible, similar to his neglrctful parent/s. The Love Avoidant is compelled to be relational with needy people who put him in a god-like position. It is not unusual to see these two types of people enter into relationships with one another, whereby they often stimulate each other's cycle.

Nothing To Do With Love........
The Love Addict enters the relationship masked in fantasy that is stimulated by the avoidant's "wall of seduction," He uses the fantasy to mask the Love Avoidant's distancing. The Love Avoidant uses the "wall of seduction" to make the Love Addict feel good and to keep himself safe from soffocation. Then as the Love Avoidant develops resentments, leaves and acts out to create intensity, the Love Addict uses denial to maintain his fantasy.
The resentment and distancing eventually break the Love Addict's denial and they enter emotional withdrawal from the fantasy. Because he is so unhappy, the Love Avoidant starts to feel guilty and returns to the relationship with a wall of seduction that usually starts the two cycling again. This is not about love for either partner. It is a combination of addiction, toxic sexual behavior, and deep relational problems.
so after reading this, go back and reread all of your posts in this relationship, IMO it's textbook which is why I maintain staying no contact is a good idea, but if you don't, that's OK too, I went back about 50 times before I ended the cycle, it takes what it takes, this information will be waiting for you when you are done
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:33 PM
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Wall of seduction....

....wall of seduction...

hmmm


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Old 10-25-2009, 08:53 AM
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Truth is, he hurt me a lot and I will never be with him again, but I do miss him as a friend. He'd have to MOVE MOUNTAINS to earn my trust back again, texts and calls wont cut it, and who knows if he has that in him. He might not.
This is you leaving the door open just a bit for him to come back into your life. He hurt you a lot? Leaving the door open for HIM leaves the door open for more hurt.

Is it possible to be friends with an alcoholic?
Sure it's possible just not advisable unless you like to be lied to, manipulated, hurt &/or drunk yourself.
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:54 AM
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Dear C4H what a horrible situation to be in. If you remember you and I were going through pretty much the same thing at the same time and, like you, I wanted my ex to come back just to validate me and everything I did for him, everything we went through together - I say we, but it was HIS homelessness, HIS joblessness, HIS isolation from family. Yes I was feeling it but really I was watching from the sidelines. Having seen the two of us survive that, but then fall apart for no apparent reason but his unpredictability, to suddenly not have him in my life any more was hard. But you know, we're four months down the line now, and the thought of him coming back terrifies me. I feel in an instant it would undo all the work I've been doing on myself - particularly in the last couple of months where I've started going out again, started going to the gym again, looking to the future - a future without him - something which even as recent as in May this year I didn't think I'd survive! Ridiculous isn't it! C4H he wants to keep you in his life as, for as long as you let him, he knows you'll always be there. As much as though I really feel I did and do love my ex, the best thing he has ever done for me is cut me off - however much it hurt and however much some of the pain still lingers - and reading posts like yours from an outside point of view only makes this all the more clearer to me. Isn't there any way you can switch jobs or something so you don't have to see him? You're right not to bail him out by the way, I do feel some of his actions are a test to see whether he still has you under his control. Just my opinion, I may be wrong. I wish you well and I wish you luck. As I said, much as tho it pains me my ex has never made contact, I read stories like yours and I'm thankful he hasn't XXX
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Old 10-25-2009, 10:00 PM
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I currently know 3 active alcoholics.

#1) always proclaims spectacular business plans with a great future though has yet to organize anything (2 years of hearing this) Intelligent, personable and educated. Admits he is alcoholic.

#2) Friendly, personable guy but at 10AM he wreaks of alcohol and ALWAYS look like hell. Gets drunk and angry and takes it out on girlfriend(non addict) Alienated family and real friends.

#3) Personable, well spoken and quite intelligent. Very unreliable and when drinking gives one sided "sermons" with which he does not allow debate; always right. Family/friends alienated. He has been to AA but says he did not feel comfortable there with "all the alcoholics" cause, he is not.
When he drinks he spends lots of money and has lost money or been robbed by other addicts/scammers.


Personally, sometimes I can enjoy conversation and company but only if not drinking or at the very onset of drinking. Once drinking commences, being with them is tantamount to torture.

So, IMO to reflect on the issue of being a friend with an active addict; Limited degree with boundaries because they are going nowhere but down towards the drain hole.

I try not to look at them with animosity but with compassion and understanding.
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Old 10-25-2009, 11:42 PM
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Hi C4H!!

I also keep some friends that were boyfriends at some point in time!! And yes friendship can come back..

BUT...this is a big BUT...

In ALL those cases hurt was acknowledged both ways, said hurt was NOT A HORRIBLE NIGHTMARE OF ABUSE, apologies were made, and THEY WERE REAL; there was an effort from BOTH parts to NEVER hurt the other person again and BOTH parts were 100% honest. Trust was easily rebuilt that way. AND there was a lot of time and distance involved.

So if I think about your particular case I say NO, DONT EVEN ENTERTAIN THE IDEA, or tell him "sure, after 5 years of solid recovery I am up to talking about the weather" and let's see if he is serious about growing up.

HUGS!! I know its tough... but if its worth anything, I KEPT contact with ex and we were supposedly friends, well I was just backstabbed many more times and I was just an "open door" in case this Little God decided he wanted me. And no the time before we spent together as good friends meant nothing then and no longer means anything now. That was then. Unless there are years of AA and therapy (at least that is what I would consider being serious about it) remember alcoholism is PROGRESSIVE and CHRONIC and the usual supporting mechanisms are STILL THERE, denial, lying, manipulation, and all sort of jewels no one deserves to put up with.

It is not worth it at all.
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Old 10-26-2009, 11:08 AM
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Oh TC I get so confused. The last few weeks I've felt grateful for the no contact with my ex. I've even felt a little scared of how I'd react if he came back (not anything manic - just think I'd give in to him and go back to square one!) And then I read posts like your one above and I dream of the day he and I make our peace - after all the relationship itself wasn't an issue. (I wouldn't let it become one because I refused to live with him, much as though he wanted to - for that I am thankful!) It was just the way it ended. All I can hope I suppose is that I do finally move on once and for all, stop floating back and forth like I have been doing, and maybe we can one day be friends again. Here's hoping :-( XXXXXXX
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:14 PM
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After being married to STBXAH for 18 years, I don't trust myself to try and be 'friends' with him. I'd be too scared of unconsiously slipping back into my old codie ways, he'd slip back into his controlling habits and we've start the dance again before I know what's happening... The manipulation is just way too subtle and the temptation to do what I've always done would be too strong.

For my own sanity, I'm maintaining no contact. To keep myself stress and worry free - to not analyse my every move and conversation with him - I've cut him out of my life completely. Maybe I'm 'lucky' - he hurt me so much I don't want to be his 'friend' - even though that's what he wanted. There is no trust left in me for him...

Every situation is different though. I hope you make a decision that's right for YOU.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:57 PM
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I know how you feel...

I know if ex hadn't been involved with someone I would have gone back wishing "this time would work out".

And even with the slightest contact I am sometimes still thrown to square one! In fact I have to leave and walk right next to him. UGH. Just a far away glance has my heart racing. Again.

To ME TC999, friends is too much to ask for. I don't trust him anymore either. And if he was again the good person I have missed so much I would suffer more knowing that yes Jekyll is back but married with someone else By now... at least I wish we could be in decent terms, without tension at work.

My goal is indifference and perhaps in 20 years we may both laugh at a silly joke. But friends? oh no... with a friend like that I would not need enemies


HUGS!!
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